I have already removed the A/C and smo equipment. I now want to buy an elec. water pump. I'm trying to figure out a way to get tension on the belt. My car is a 91 and its a serpentine setup. Do they make belts that short for a serpentine system? Has anyone else done this?

I also need to keep power steering b/c I don't have skinnies.

Thanks for any and all help.

 

Don't do it unless this is a Drag only car!!!!! Electric water pumps do not have enough volume or pressure for day to day driving. They are useless for ANY competition other than Drag Racing.

By a good quality pump such as a Stewart or an Edelbrock Victor series.

 

You have absolutely no friggin' clue what you are talking about. I hate it when people make bold statments with absolutely no proof to back it up. Meziere makes a 55gph water pump that delivers more volume at lower RPMs than a Edelbrock or Stewart hi-flow water pump (because standard pump output increases with increasing RPM). Thus, when in stop and go traffic this electric pump delivers more volume. Oh yea - this isn't just theory either. I have one of these pumps on my car . In does a better job at cooling than my Edelbrock hi-flow water pump did.

Tim

 

I think the issue with electric water pumps is pump longevity.. How long do those typically last??

 

Now there ya go. That's the proper question. The Mez pump is rated for 2500 hours. If you drive the car 2 hours a day ... every day ... then it is suppose to last 3-1/2 years before it needs to be rebuilt. If you only drive your car 1 hour a day then it jumps to 7 years. HOWEVER, with that said, I am not convinced of that timeframe. I've heard of several people who have had their Mez pump fail before it was suppose to.

Tim

 

I was looking at the pump in jegs. It only sells for 160. I want something to take some weight out of the car and still keep it streetable. If I can pick up horsepower and loose weight that would be great. I need to lighten up as much as possible.

 

Ummm excuse me Mr. Expert....but I said pressure and volume. Pressure is Highly critical in an Automotive Cooling system and is often overlooked by people with little knowledge of how a modern cooling system works.

A Winston Cup engine runs with a 22 to 24 lb Rad cap.... but can see over 80PSI in the engine block. Pressure drops dramatically....AFTER the thermostat. This amount of pressure is needed to keep staem pockets from forming in hot spot arears such as cylinder heads. Nissan Turbocharged GTP engines in the 1980's ran over a 160PSI of water PRESSURE in the block. ( WC and GTP cooling source: Circle Track Magazine. ) Modern F engines are running close to 200PSI!! This is fact...readily available to any one willing to take 15 minutes to look it up.

You don't need a great deal of water volume or pressure at low RPM's . The engine is not working hard and the main reason why engines over heat in stop and go traffic is inadequate AIR flow ....not water flow.

You ever see ANY proper Race Car...be it Circle Track, F1, Indy Car, WRC, Trans Am Car..GTP with an Electric driven water pump? No...because they can't handle the volume and pressure required to cool and engine runnning for longer than one minute at full tilt. It takes quite a bit of horsepower, around 20 actually, to drive a water pump capable of cooling a race engine at full tilt. Or a passenger car pulling up a long hill.

Auto Mfg's spend MILLIONS of dollars designing their cars. Their engineers are paid huge dollars to get the job done. Funny...I don't seem to be able to recall ANY commercial Truck or car engines with electric driven water pumps. Do ya think that there might just possibly be a reason for that Tim?? Or do you know more than GM, Ford, Toyota and all the other car mfg's in the world?

Edelbrock pumps and Stewart pumps actually will supply less volume than some factory pumps because of the impellor design which is optimised for mid to high RPM use. Stock water pumps cavitate at high rpm's . Racing pumps such as the Stewart pump's and Edelbrock pumps do not cavitate at high RPM and supply over twice the volume and pressure than a stock pump or any electric pump available to Joe Q public. That's when you need a powerfull W\Pump. When the engine is working hard...not idling in traffic. My personal dual purpose 1986 Camaro is now putting out close to 480bhp. Runs cool all day in stop and go traffic.... Ambient temperatures of over 100 deg F. I don't have anything " Trick " on my car. Just a well thought out system. 3 core copper rad, Water Wetter, Edelbrock Victor pump, Single fan and Hayden Electronic adjustable fan relay. Racing temps on track days run from 200f to 210f....220f if the ambient is stinking hot and I'm leaning on the motor. That's right where your engine builder would want it.

BTW Mr. Tim....I've been racing, building motors and race cars cars for over 27 years. My trophy case speaks for itself. You may not know me but one MR. Karl Hunter can vouch for my expertise. I also help him crew on a particular GT1 Corvette....Edit: Karl would kill me if I said who...but is that enough experience for you? I just may know just a wee bit more than you give credit for. ( Sarcasm )

Read some Tech books ( Vizard is excellant as is Circle Track) and do a little research before you go slagging people. As a Moderator you should know better!!!

 

You can spout off whatever you want. Your first post said ...

That comment is flat out wrong. Sure - everything you just said holds truth. I'm still baffled as to why you even posted it because I said nothing about an electric water pump being a good choice for NASCAR or for Road Racing. You are not putting it in context of what you originally said. You said a Dray only car. That is wrong. Period. There are PLENTY of street cars with electric water pumps that have no problems whatsoever in terms of cooling.

Mr. Tim

 

Reread my post: I can't make it much clearer. BTW, it is also bad Forum etiquette to "snip" out sentences in a reply and then repost them as a " Quote ". A " Moderator " should know this.

Don't do it unless this is a Drag only car!!!!! Electric water pumps do not have enough volume or pressure for day to day driving. They are useless for ANY competition other than Drag Racing.

By a good quality pump such as a Stewart or an Edelbrock Victor series

Maybe it's the definition of street car that need clearing up. If you're only doing short little trips back and forth to the grocery store or show and shine...then yeah....you may get away with an Electric Pump. Oh yeah and of course Drag Racing. Electric pumps are good for Drag Racing because:

1) They eliminate about a 20 HP pumping loss.

2) They cool the car down better on the return lane idling back to the pits.

I still stand by my statement that they are no good for a daily street driver. My definition of a street driven car includes the ability to be driven for long distances at highway speeds and the ability to climb hills . I live in BC, Canada. Try driving a car with an electric driven pump in a Mountainous region. Good Luck!!! Going on vacation to California for example, and traveling on the Freeway all day at 70mph? Good Luck again.

I understand that you are a Drag Racer and know your stuff. Unfortunately Drag Racing is a particular Automotive sport that has a lot of " Tricks " that simple won't work in any other form of Racing....or in Street driving as MOST people ( Non Drag Racers that is ) would define it.

My definition of Street car includes all scenarios that a driver might encounter....not a few particular exceptions that may work on [/b] some cars.

No use getting into a pissing match over who's definition of street cars is right. Freebird's got lots of info. He can make the decision and live with it.

I must say however that I am rather put of by the attitude of this board. I don't post much...but when I do, you can be sure that I try provide the most accurate advice I can. To be slagged by a " Moderator " such as yourself makes me think .... Why bother?

 

Edit: Ooops double post. Hit button twice.

 

I take it that the stewart and eldelbrock pumps are aluminum as well?

One of the reasons that I wanted to do this is b/c one of my brackets for my ac is broken. I was trying to get rid of as much stuff as possible.

 

Edelbrock Victor Series pumps are Aluminium. Stewart Stage 2, 3 &4 are Aluminium. Either a Stewart Stage 2 or an Edelbrock Victor pump should be more than adequate for anything short of a Full on Road Race or Circle Track car.

Here is a link to Stewart' Water Pump section.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/htm...waterpumps.asp

BTW, Stewart have an excellant Forum section. Check it out first. A Stage 2 pump is more than adequate for the street. The Stage 4 pump, which can flow 160GPH, is overkill for the street and can actually cause some problems if not installed correctly. It is designed to use underdriven pulley's for example.

Playing Devil's advocate...here is a link to Stewart's Electric Driven 55GPH Water Pump. Note the Application use......" Drag Racing Use Only". I rest my case.

http://www.stewartcomponents.com/htm...waterpumps.asp

 

Oh no! Don't tell all the LT1 guys who have been running Meziere pumps for years on the street. They might have to figure out a way to get their stocker back in there. Not!

I don't deal solely in theory. I also deal in fact. LT1 guys have been running the Mez pumps on the street for years. Yea, we have hills around here too. I'm in Western Maryland ... you know - those big mountains that run up and down the east coast.

Sounds like the only thing we disagree with here is the idea that certain electric waters do flow enough volume and have enough pressure for street use. I claim they do because I have experienced it firsthand. What more do you need? I'll say this again - with regard to street driving my Meziere pump keeps my temperature more steady than my Edelbrock Victor Series aluminum water pump. I don't know what else to say. I guess all the LT1 guys who have been doing it for years ... along with me ..., well, I guess we're just wrong and don't realize it? If my temperature is steady for all types of street driving then I think it's working pretty darn good.

Tim

 

Perhaps what we need here is the final answer... ???

Well - I don't have any direct experiance with electric pumps - so I can't give it.

I can tell you this: If you plan to run your car HARD for any length of time an electric pump is a bad choice. This is why: Once the cooling system saturates with heat in a hard driving situation the water begins to boil in the heads. The pressure generated by a mechanical water pump is the only thing that can keep this under control. In normal street driving situations a good electric pump can circulate the coolant adequately to cool the engine and keep everything happy. Even under some higher load situations the electric pump is fine as the cylinder head temps are not so high as to begin boiling the water in the passeges near the exhaust ports. There is of course the fine line when this does begin to happen (boiling water in the heads) that the electric can still control it as it is still circulating the water fast enough to keep things happy, but if it goes too far you are in trouble.

Will the electric work for street driving? yes - with a proviso: the car cannot be run HARD for an extended period of time.

Electric pumps are great for drag cars. Better than a mechanical pump in fact.

Ideal for a street car - I would say not.

You have to decide for yourself what the priorities are. Do you want the extra free horsepower of an electric pump - and are you willing to make the sacrifices nesscsary to have it. That is the big question.

If you plan to drive your car on the street with the occasional trip to the strip - I would say go with the mechanical pump.

If you have a drag car that you also plan to drive on the street once in a while - the electric should be fine.

If you want to do anything that involves high loads for extended periods - example: Solo2 - track events - road racing things of that sort - the electric will not be up to the task.

Lots of good info in this post. Hopefully you can make your decision now.

 

Edit: Delete post. Karl said it better.

Delete Post button no worky

 

Edit: ???? Keep on getting double posts....weird.

 

I plan on driving my car on the street a bit more than the average drag car. I do not ever plan on road racing it. I need to know if the electic is going to get me to MIR and thru traffic. Spray the **** out of the motor and then drive it back. Total trip is about 140 miles. I drive this car on a regular basis and religiously attend all the local hang outs on the weekends. Does this mean that an electric pump is not practical for what I'm planning on doing?

 

If TRAX's experiance is any indication - and I believe what he says to be true - then street driving your car should not be any problem with an electric pump... but re-read my previous post... and decide if it is a compromise you want to make.

Also - seems we have forgotten the intent of the post - and the belt routing question... TRAX is not using the factory serpentine drive system any more (Tim - correct me if I am wrong) and I don't know of an easy way to run a serpentine drive system without the belt looping back around the water pump... so it may end up being more trouble than you want... again YOU have to decide how far you want to go with it.

 

Karl is right. I am not using the stock setup. HOWEVER, Meziere does make a bolt-in replacement water pump for TPI cars. It has an idler pulley on the front in order to keep the stock belt routing. Thunder Racing has a picture of it on their site.

Also - I just wanted to say the following. Yes, my pump keeps my car cool. Absolutely NO complaints there. With that said - I cannot comment as to the reliability of this pump as compared to a belt driven pump. Yes, the pump is rated for 2500hrs which is a lot of driving. But, some LT1 guys have experienced failures before that time period.

Tim

 

Hey Tim...

Which part of the pump is it that fails? The motor? Is it rebuildable - or do you have to buy a whole new pump and housing? Just curious.

 

Hey Karl...

It is rebuildable. One of the biggest problems with those who have experienced failure is the wires that go into the pump somehow vibrate loose - inside the pump. The other 'normal' problem is the brushes on the motor. Although it is rebuildable - it still sux if you are stranded on the side of the road. Don't get me wrong about what I previously posted. I am in no way claiming that electric pumps are equal with the mechanical pumps in terms of longevity. They have come a LONG way and should last a long time as long as the 'expected hours of operation' are true. They can also cool the car exceptionally well for street driving.

Tim

 

tim, i might not have seen this if you posted it, but how long have you had your electric pump?

also, how did you do your belt routing?

 

Belt routing is fully custom due to a fully custom very thick Vortech 6061 Aluminum bracket.

I think I am going on several months with this pump. BUT - my car is not a daily driver so I don't have a lot of hours on the pump! No sense driving my IROC around in all the rain the Northeast is having if I have a Subaru I can use to splash through all the puddles!

Tim

 

I may as well jump in here. I've been running a Meziere electric water pump on my Formula since 2000. It was my daily driver up until last July when I got my truck. I drove it on short trips as well as long trips out of state with no problems. I can still drive it anywhere.

The stock belt driven water pump did not cool the engine as well as the Mez pump does. I agree with everything Tim has written about the performance of his. If I did not have one, I'd probably be a bit skeptical as well. But I gave it a try, and this pump has far exceeded my expectations. Traffic, hard driving, it doesn't matter. My car runs cool no matter what.

Oh, and I'm still running the stock serpentine belt system, just with a shorter belt. I don't understand what the problem is here.

If you want a Meziere electric, as someone who has been running one on the street for a while - I say go for it. You'll be making an improvement, not a compromise.

 

I'll side with Jed also. I got the proform electric pump-cheap I know, but for a Meizer knock-off WTF. Anyways, this pump keeps my car right at 160 in traffic and on these hot hot days we've been having it jumps to about 180-200 and no higher. Consider this, last year I was running 13.6's in the 1/4mi. and the only mods to the drivetrain this winter were a manual steering box and the electric water pump and dropped right down to 13.00! So for me the experience was/has been proven. I have yet to have a problem, so I'm sold. Also I think these pumps looks a heck of alot better than the Moroso electric drive kits and 2 of my buddies with that kit have cooling issues at the track and the strip.