Ok, I've got everything ready with the machinist, then he gives me this amazing idea and I've almost redesigned my design completely. Anyway, what I would like to know from the people here.....

If you are going to be using a ~700+ cfm 2bbl tbi, will it ever be mounted to a tbi manifold?

If I design this thing now to be used only on a carb manifold, will as many people buy them.

Here some of the specs once again.

2" Bores, may be larger now if I want (from the new idea).
Simplified design.
IAC moved.
2.5 Inches tall
Uses standard tbi injector pod, for now.
All vacuum passages are on the front.
vacuum passages could be optional
looks cooler.
3 peice design.
standard iac and tps sensor mounts.
standard throttle linkage.
will most likely be able to order them in different colors eventually.
.5 radiused inlet on the bores
revolutionary outlet/adapter on the bottom of the bores. (this will be the machinist patented design enhancment) It held their hp curve for 300 rpm more.(as measured on their race engine, on an engine dyno)

Thats about it, i should have one built in a month. maybe both of my designs now, one to bolt to stock manifold, or tbi manifold, one for carb squarebore.

PLEASE LEAVE YOUR COMMENTS ON WHETHER THE FINAL DESIGN SHOULD BE ABLE TO BOLT TO A TBI PATTERN!!!!!!!!

 

Ill be honest here, if you tell me I would get more out of your TBI with a TBI intake, then I would go with the TBI intake. If it works better with a carb intake, then I would go with the carb intake.

Aside from that, I think you should make it fit a TBI intake, you can always get an adapter to fit the carb intake right!?!

------------------
Godti
'89 Trans Am (Red)
305 TBI 5spd

 

I'd keep it a TBI bolt pattern for the same reason as Godti.

Does this thing have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

How much of a power difference will it make from a stock TBI or a Holley 670 TBI? Just curious.

 

Well the reason I've now scrapped the tbi bolt pattern is because it impeades a future option of having even bigger than 2" bores.
With those bolts there, you cant make the bores any bigger than 2" without upsetting the position of their centers.

I am keeping the 2bbl design, using the stock pod, and will have multiple designs with flow ratings up to something around 800 at most probably for a 2bbl. These are estimates. The standard one should be around 700-750.

The machinist im working with gave me an idea. I have now finished another version of the design so that it is made to mount to a carb, but adapt to a tbi pattern.

So i guess ive solved my own problem. My the way, it will work best with a single plane carb manifold.

Also the tbi will be using o-rings instead of gaskets.

As for adjustable regulator, I think an external one is going to be the only way to go because i dont know if the long screw coming out of those will interfere with where i have put the iac. However the aircleaner adapter and injector pod will be bolted together, and ideally, you will have flexable fuel lines and just take that off, adjust the pressure, without ever having to take apart the pod. So if the screw clears the iac, yes, and it will be easier to adjust than now. I should know about this problem tonight.

Its just going to be the base, no pod will be included. GM's pod design is fine for now. I do have plenty of ideas in my head for a new pod, but i think ill tackle those after i get the base built and perfected.
Thanks guys.

 

O, and Duke.

Im not looking for bolt on power here. Because its just a throttle body. What im doing is building something that will allow people who want to build a 383, or 400, and have a tbi that wont be a bottleneck. Its a capability thing if you know what i mean. There needs to be a tbi that will feed those engines.

And it should be under 300$ and it should be able to use the gm pod and delco injectors.

i think you should be able to understand what my goals and criteria were in design now.

 

I'm for the carb intake mount as I believe it would perform better.

o-rings = nice!

700cfm = plenty, don't go toooooooooo big!!!

How much are these gonna cost??? Guess!!!

I vote for external regulator...

 

i wouldnt really think it would matter for carb or tbi intake. it sounds like i might want one matters the price if they are for sell. i like the ext. regulater.. damn i think 700-750 cfm is plenty good for the tbi. perfect candidate for the zz4 i plan on putting in after i graduate.

 

Go with the carb intake. Anyone who is seriously building an engine (or has in the past), should know that the TBI style intakes available wont cut it. I am extremly interested in your design. I am planning a 383 that will have fast burns and an edelbrock air gap. If I can avoid another place for a vacuum leak it would be great. Go with a square bore bolt pattern. There are plenty of intakes that would suit this sort of thing.

 

definetly externally regulated if not just adjustable. There are plenty of aftermarket regultors. Then it would make it more nitrous user freindly too!!!

 

cost. well i dont really know because ive not talked costs with my machinist. I told him i want to be able to sell them and compete with holley's 300$. I realize holleys come with a new pod so dont worry. I hope to get em below 200$.

 

Sorry, there is no way that an adjustable fuel pressure regulator in place of the stock one because the screw will hit the IAC.

An external one would be better, maybe I'll sell a blockoff plate with the throttle body and maybe a package deal with an external adjustable regulator.

 

I say carb intake. Square bore at that. I'm just convinced that there are better single plain square bore intakes than TBI! Besides, if the unit bolts to a carb intake and has built on adaptor plate then that's saving most of us $50 right there. So I'd say shoot for around $240 for just the unit with the built on adaptor. $200 if using TBI mount. I can't wait to see this thing when it's all done. Do you have any pictures of it in wood form? E-mail me if you don't trust posting on the net.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)
Dale Earnhart, you have done so much, you will be missed.

 

Has anyone ever measured the opening of a square bore intake, if so will a holley or the 454 tb fit without having to remove material from the sides of the intake?
If so, will this new design take that into consideration?
Will the new design be mounted rearward as is the stock type tb when mounted on a square bore intake?

 

Honestly I don't plan on getting rid of my 305 but if I buy another car and decide to do an engine it will probably be a 406. It reall y dosen't matter if I do or don't because the ontly thing that matters is that the world know the true potential and power that TBI posses. It's not our fault GM didn't do it right the first time but it will be our fault if we don't show everyone that it can hang with or even womp the TPI, LT1, LS1, and LS6 cars when mated to the proper engine combination. I say go for it. Hell, forget what I said about it not mattering if I buy another car. I'll go buy another F-Body if you can prove this new TBI works as well as it does just to build a 406 with TBI to prove its potential. It sohouldn't be to hard having the performance connections I do. I have a freind that has (3) 327 blocks so I may just strok one of those and let the c.i.d. fall where it may. Just keep us all posted.

------------------
1988 Camaro
305 bored .030 over
Stock TBI
Aluminum radiator
No smog pump
gutted factor cleaner
cam ground to crane specs
timing advanced 9 degrees
no thermostat
other than that its bone stock and ran a 16.4 @ 82 mph with earth shattering wheel hop and a 2.88 60 ft time. (this was with the rebuild and cam only)

 

454 tbi is wider than the 3 11/16 of the square bore.

The built in adapter/spacer has that taken car of in a REVOLUTIONARY way. I love this machinist. He does work for NASCAR engine builders!! He just sold 50 adapter/spacers to the local race shop, phenolic and aluminium. he wants to play with the idea of using the two with my design too. i dont know. ive heard bad warping stories.

The built in adapter/spacer will also allow you to move the tbi from front to back a little, more if you have new flexible fuel lines.

I have no pics, it is now in plaster form as well as foam. Metal form shouldnt be more than 2 months away. This guy told me that he and i would work after 5 sometime building it and testing out new ideas. I think he wants to help fund and profit share. That will go on paper . LOL.

I actually just about completely redesigned my "older" new design all day today. Its also no in solid foam prototype on top of my manifold right now.

I think 240 is a great price. I may also be able to provide an extra injector pod for a price. (i am in negotiations for 20 of them right now)

I also am in process of setting up an acount with a larger performance parts distributor (keystone) thru my parents dealership as a front. they said i could sell out of my apartment all i wanted as long as it got sent to the dealership first, and the bill was paid thru there too.

All news this week seems to be good news.
Night.

 

Carb intake definetly, because like you said, on a hot 383, or 400 any TBI intake on the market will not flow enough air to feed a high HP application. If I knew I could get a TBI system that would feed my 383 that I'm putting in my 82 Z, and bolt up to my Team G intake, I would consider trying it due to the high cost of aftermarket stand alone units and the costly mods I would have to do before A TPI unit would even come close to being adequate. This engine is making 587HP and 542ft lb TQ, at the flywheel with a carb now, and it would take a hell of a EFI system to feed it. The company that custom ground my cam has a 85 Firebird w/ an nitroused 406 w/ EFI that running 9.71 @ 148 in the quarter. Mine is not quite as hot as his is, yet , but it takes a dual 750 cfm TB (read: 1500 cfm combined!!)to feed his car, so I was thinking about maybe dual TBI's. I may just be dreaming, but it would be very cool and definetly different to see dual GM TBI's on a super fast Street/Strip car. I know Duke has the same idea with his 427, and if he's like me, I want to do it because A) I like a challenge and B) it would actually be reasonably affordable compared to the high cfm aftermarket EFI systems. I was thinking of trying to use a fabricated sheet metal mini-tunnel ram with 2 670 cfm (1340 cfm combined)454 or Holley TB's on it. It will be a while before I get this going, but I'm really going to try to make it a reality. Snu, I really think the modified version you are trying to develop is a step in the right direction for hot street, big cube, single TB set-ups. I'd love to see TBI cars kicking the $hit outta TPI and LTI cars around the country!! It's time the underdogs got serious!!

------------------
82 Z28 350, Ported #882 Heads, Performer RPM cam and intake, hedman headers,650 Demon carb,
Trans: Turbo 350 w/ 4000 stall -- Rearend 7.5 w/ Richmond 4.10's, Auburn Minispool
Best ET: 12.52@107.2
Future plans: Dart headed, Roller cammed 383 in early '01


89 RS, L03 305, Hypertech Chip,cat delete, Dynomax exhaust,K&N open element Filter,160 stat, MSD coil --Trans:700R4 Corvette Servo -- Rearend: 7.5 GM 3.42 w/ posi-lock
New Best ET: 14.91 @92.9
Bassett Racing
Mid Atlantic F Body -82 Z28 Page

R.I.P. Dale Earnhardt #3

[This message has been edited by Basett Racing (edited February 22, 2001).]

 

I can't believe I never told anyone here. Everyone at cz28.com knows, that I built the 427 and used duel Holley 670 TBI's on it. It made well over 600 HP, and I sold the whole engine with the fuel injection setup. I made alot of money on it so now I'm in the process of building another, better one. The Holley TBI's were outfitted with GM injector pods and were running 454 injectors using a lower fuel pressure. If you want the details on how to make the TBI units work together, you just use one TPS, but the IAC's are the big problem. I had to do alot of chip burning to get the computer to idle the engine below 2000 RPM's (got it down to 800, then the engine tried to kill itself from the big cam).

Snuf, the reason I'm asking so many questions is because I want to use your TBI on my next engine instead of the Holley units, I'm not impressed with Holley's design.

 

ill answer em all, and maybe change aspects of the design if need be to answer them correctly.

 

anybody got tips with plaster of paris?? Ive got the foam mockup done, and its even got a injector pod and throttle shaft in it. It looks sweet, and i know it is gona be better than holley's.

 

Snuf,
About the throttle bores being larger than a squarebore carb intake. I was think what if you were to turn the TBI 45 degrees. So that it will still bolt to a squarebore, but the throttle bores themselves would be at an angle. There is nothing that requires the bores to be purpindicular to the engine the way it is know. If you were to turn it 45 degrees towards the # 2 cylinder, the throttle stock throttle cable would still reach without a problem. Although some creative design might need to be employed for the brackets. The intakes shouldn't be a problem, because your talking about using more of a single plane intake anyway. So there wont be a plenum divider in the middle to interfere with the throttle blades. Iv'e seen some custome sheet metal intakes that have done this type of thing before. It would look really trick too. Just an idea. I can't wait to build my stroker and get this pig out from under my hood.

 

turning it makes the 2" bores fit perfectly you are right. But, that makes it just a little harder to install. With the way ive got the adapter/spacer designed, there will be no flow loss, actually there may be gain over a straight in.(because velocity may increase)

Ive looked at that option and decided that it just isnt worth the effort to do. I thought about makeing an adapter, which would be cool, that in a half inch rotated the square bore 45 degrees. So there would be a swirl type thing goin on. for example, grab a pop can and twist it. not exactly the same, but you get the idea of what i was thinking. once again, its just as good to have conical spacer. and even better if you do what ive done. , youll see.

if you have more questions, feel free. the design is done, any changes will now be taken into consideration while and after testing.

 

Know that I think of it, I wonder if turning the bores would be bad anyway. I'm not sure but I would think that it would increase the disatnce from the throttle bores to #'s 2 and 7 cylinders. maybe not though. It's kind of hard to imagine without a working model. Your propbobly right with the spacer idea, hopefully it will act as sort of a velocity stack.
You asked about fuel regulator before, definetly offer a block of plate to get rid of the stock one. I'll by it. I like the idea of having an aftermarket regulator for easier adjustability.
Keep up the hard work, good luck.

 

I think that ive figured out i will need to sell 200 @ 250$ to pay for patent crap and production costs. Think i could do it?

 

if you are interested or know somebody who is, please write me an email. detailed, of why. I think this would help me get the loan if i could show that there are many people out there that are interested in an alternative to holley's tbi. also i would like to know how many people here would be interested. SERIOUSLY 250$. would you buy? dont reply here, please email me.

snflupigus@aol.com

[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited February 24, 2001).]

 

emails from people interested, so far ive got 4. i would like to have like 20 or so. so anybody, even if you just a little interested. email me and say you are so i can show the bank or my prospect investors that i have a large interest.

 

snf, have you considered going to another website like one for chevy and gmc trucks? There are a lot of tbiers there as well. I'm sure you could generate some more interest from there and expand your resource base.

Just a thought.

 

i will, i would like to see how many guys here are interested first. I have no doubts that i could sell 200 fast, when is depending on when i get some built and i test one out on my own car.

so once again, send an email, it only takes a minute to do. just say,

"interested in your tbi"
"your name here"

thanks.

 

If you're gonna sell them with injectors, pod, TPS and IAC motor you'll sell them fast for $250 bucks. At least you'll sell one to me fast.

 

you will use your pod, your iac, and your tps from when you swap. i might be getting 20 pods with injectors but not all large injectors barely used ones. But im not sure. and if i were to sell them with tps, iac. i would have to check bulk prices thru the dealership.

 

Your're not gonna sell many of them at that price, IMO, when the COMPLETE Holley unit is $269... Even though it is a POS. No offense, that's just how people will view it, purely a bang-for-the-buck thing.

Just found out that you can buy a "naked" Holley 670cfm unit for about $150, ie no injectors (pod IS there, though, with adjustable regulator) no tps and no IAC...

[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited February 26, 2001).]

 

this is not for stock replacement, it will be for the big guys who want tbi. i might make a stock replacement, but i dont know. this thing is going to have 2 - 2.25 inch bores, and they could still go bigger with the way ive designed it. its definately not for stock l03. Holley has their game, i would like to fill the niche for the people looking for even more.

the price is not set in stone, obviously. hell, i havent even built one yet, nor have i even discussed cost with my machinist. so far 240 and 250 have been rough guesses. we will see. dont be runnin away now man.

 

It's all love!

seriously, though, I'm still waiting for your post to me about the used 454 Rochester TBI unit, though... Can you still help me with that???????????????? PLEASE!!! can't find one in CT/MA... Just compete systems, which I surely don't need another one of.

 

Nobody can find one, i went to the local junkyards and walked around lookin and there were none and i went to the junkyards where they dismantle the cars too. none. i posted that a long time ago.

hell, i guess i'll sell you mine since ill soon be testing my own design.

Ive seen em go on ebay for 240. So that would be my price for my 454 rochester tbi, but i cant sell it to you till i get my design built and on the car and finish testing. But if my car wont run right with that much air/fuel, ill want to keep the 454. sorry. I should know by summer time.

 

I will buy one of ya for 152.00 +.50 shipped. So a total of $152.50 all together. You send first. LoL

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI
"It Ain't Stock"
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html
For info on certain parts or mods go to the site below
http://members.aol.com/j007golden/modeval.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited February 26, 2001).]

 

the carb intake sounds like a winnig choice to me, with all the options on intakes out there you will not be limited to two or three intake designs. i am definatly interested in the direct bolt on to a carb type intake. keep me in mind and let me know when they are ready!!!!!!!!

 

LoL, he is excited.

 

I don't know if this is what you are calling the built in spacer/adapter, but I have an idea. You could have two "mounting plates" that go with it, one for TBI one for CARB. These wouldn't really be spacers because they are part of the TB. When someone ordered you would have to send them the one they choose so they can use it on the car. Then maybe later they will want to use it on the other intake and you could sell the adapter/lower half to them seperate.

I don't know if that's even possible, but hey it's an idea.

 

Keith THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS!!

The lower 1/2 inch of the tbi is the adapter. There are two adapter designs i have, just as you said, one for carb (square bore) and one for tbi. You bolt the adapter to the intake, then the tbi to the adapter/spacer.

I think i said up top when i was deciding this, that i had just solved my own problem and will have two spacers, it will be designed primarily for carb, but if you like you will be able to special order the tbi adapter instead.

I'M EXCITED TOO. CALLING PATENT OFFICE IN DC TODAY!!!

I guess i know somebody there. My cousin does anyway.

 

o, and just called. Corian, 36$ a foot full retail price. I can get a chunk cheap cheap from a guy to try and use it as the adapter spacer for my prototype. If I sold the tbi with a corian base adapter/spacer, it would be more, but would people want that over aluminium? Maybe an upgrade price or something special order. Im just trying to get an idea of what people want here. thanks


[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited February 27, 2001).]

 

You know why the Holley one's are so cheap! Their basically a 1 piece design, all cast, they have crummy injectors, and they make it as cheaply as possiable. Yours has too much quality, that's what's wrong with the world today, people are making money off junk, I admire what your trying to do snuf!

 

About this new TB . . . will it be avaliable polished? Or can we polish it ourselves? Some of us are obssessed with shine I'm sure and I just wanted to know.

 

its probably going to come somewhat shiny, cuz its probably gona be cnc'd. If i could find somebody to cast it later i will, but i guess i could sit and polish a few, but id charge yer ace for it. You can polish it yourself, trust me, it will be very easy to do.

[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited February 27, 2001).]

 

i like the way it sounds i want to be in on this i am planning on building a 350 maybe zz4 so i would want this bad boy... you got my e-mail already.

 

I think I'd rather have aluminum, then when the bottom part is on the top part, it's like you have a real whole TBI.

The corian would be good to isolate the TB from heat I guess, you could make the corian a special order item if it cost a lot more.

 

21 emails in 4 days. Think thats good enough to make 20?

 

You can count on me....like i said if it will feed a zz4....i'm in,it's alot better then shelling out $400 for a demon carb..
Thanks again, Jeremy Miller

------------------
92RS,POLO GREEN

 

I like the idea fitting carb intakes, and the inline regulator.

have you considered making a spreadbore 4-barrel TBI for fuel mileage?

ODB

 

computer stuff would have to be done. It would be a huge change. nothing that would work with a stock ecu. However, it would get great milage if one was made. it would be expensive to buy a new aftermarket computer system just to have better milage. there is not a very good market for people who want better milage either. But i like the idea though.

 

I saw a Dodge Conquest TSI that had only one a single barrel tb and two injectors. The first injector was for non boost or under boost rpm and the second came in as boost came up and suppied the extra fuel needed. Why invent a new spread bore four barrel tb when a two barrel with a progessive linkage would do the same thing. If you could find a way to switch the second injector on as the second barrel opened would be a posibilty. But isn't that why we have efi to begin with? Fuel economy and performance.

JMO,Steve

 

hey snuf, I know I'm a newbie, but after a little searching, I found this thread. I haven't found anything else about it when searching and this thread hasn't been updated in a long time. So, what happened with this manifold? I may also be interested

------------------
~ Cheston Phillips ~ =Impalaitis ~ = tri9_SS
'96 BBB Impala SS "ADIOSS" & '91 white Caprice 'n0n 9c1' w/L03