jay311md

I'm in the process right now of doing a complete 4th gen swap. I've got the door panels, dash, center console, seats, and seat belts. So far I've relocated the lock and door handles on both doors. That took a little time...but it was not that big of a PITA. Now I'm working on the wiring for the dash and interior. I've got the complete schematics for 4th gens and am working on getting everything wired up. I also got the complete wiring harness out of a 4th gen, including the Body Control Module, and all accessory harnesses. I even got the harness for the rear amplifier and antenna. I decided to use the stock HVAC controls and fabricated the old bracket to fit the new dash. Pretty straight forward. I made my own white face gauges for all of the controls, including the speedo, HVAC, and headlamp switch. I'll keep you updated on what I'm doing and what I've done. I'm trying to get some good pictures and if all goes well...I'll write a tech article on the swap. So far it hasn't been too bad. The door panels will probably take a little work to fit...but I've already done a test fitting and with the 4th gen seat belts, they should be just fine...might need to trim them a little. But I don't think I'll have to hack them up like others had to. If you have any questions I'll try and help you out from my experience so far. Pictures will be coming shortly. Once I get the dash in...the next project will be LS1 with a T56....hopefully this summer.

Shagwell

Are you using a Camaro or Firebird dash? - Could you possibly e-mail me the dash schematic for the 4th gen? I'm about to swap a 95 bird dash into my GTA and would like to not have to trace out the printed strip to get the gauges wired. I am also have the complete dash wiring harness and body controls computer. I plan on sticking w/ my stock HVAC controls, but will probably fab up some duct work to hook my vents all up.

thank you,

justin...

shagwell2169@hotmail.com

Scott_92RS

I'd also like to see the 4th gen dash schematics. Good luck with the swap! What all was invloved with relocating ther door handles?

jay311md

I'll get the schematics together for you. I've been getting all the different connectors and wires labeled, so far it hasn't been too bad. I did the same thing with my ducts...I just fabbed up a connector for some heater tubing. Since the 4th gen is a circular connection, and the 3rd gen is square, I used some sheet aluminum, pop rivets, and the tubing w/ some clamps. It worked out pretty well. I'll try and get some pictures up.

In response to the door handles, I had to relocate them down and back a couple of inches. The only tools I used were a grinder, and pop rivot gun. That's about all I used. I found that you can use the opening behind the stock door handle to get them to work. Again, I'll try and get some pictures up for you.

I'm using a 2001 Trans Am dash, I'll also put some pics up of my white face gauges, they turned out pretty damn cool. Also, I painted the clear plastic piece behind the gauges with some translucent plastic paint from a craft store. When you put light through it, it makes all of the gauges show up in blue, very soft color and has equal coverage. Kind of like a poor man's indiglo...lol

jay311md

Let me know if these help, or if you need others.

jay311md

#1

jay311md

#2

jay311md

Here are a few more pics for you...these are of the lock relocation.

If you look at the new door handle, just above and to the right of it you'll notice the old door handle location.

#1

jay311md

Here's a close up. I hope this helps.

Sonar_un

Very good work. Can't wait to see the tech article!

jay311md

Tonight I rewired the door locks and windows. I used the 4th gen harness and simply followed the schematics for both the 3rd and 4th gen and spliced the connectors onto the appropriate wires. I have an overhead console as well, however it did not come with the map light. SO I rigged up a little light of my own. I went down the the auto parts store and bought an LED light and modded the light socket. Looks kind of cool...but we'll see how it shines. I started to work on the windows to try and figure out why they're rattling. I noticed that one of the peel rivots has completely come undone from the sash. So I'm working on getting that done. I've ordered some new door lock actuators, and once those come in, the door panels will be going on. I got the dash ready to be wired...everything's labeled and ready to go. It was quite a long day...hopefully, on my next day off (Thursday) I'll be able to get the dash in. I took some pics today...I'll get them up ASAP.

wlsmoku

Sounds good!! Thanks for all the updates, I can't wait to see it done!! I would love to do this, but have no idea where to start, so thanks again for all the info!

jay311md

start simple, with some 4th gen seats or console... If you want to do the dash and door panels, just get the components and start reading. I'm trying to get a tech article together to help the rest out. My car originally had a v6 in it. Later I swapped in a v8. Next I got rid of the crappy 3rd gen seats, plus the fabric started to rip and the metal was exposed, so I swapped in some 4th gen seats. They are actually very comfortable. Then I decided I wanted to do a few more changes. SO I added an overhead console and got a 4th gen center console. The console looked a little out of place...so I decided to go all out and got the 4th gen door panels and 2001 Trans Am Dash. I'll try and get some pics up tonight. Later Y'all....

Scott_92RS

Do you have any better quality schematics? You cant really tell whats what on those Great pics of the door handle stuff though!

jay311md

They are very good quality...but you can only upload a certain size pic... Do you have windows messenger? My nick is jay311md...I'll pm them to you

wlsmoku

Only upgrade I have so far is the console, and I love it, but I agree, it needs the whole dash to go with it. I tried printing the pics, but couldn't read it either, do you have some better quality pics?

jay311md

I had to adjust the size of the pictures of the schematics, otherwise it would not let me upload them... Any schematics you need...just pm me on windows messenger. my e-mail is jay311md@hotmail.com

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like you are rolling. I just got my 4th gen dash in today, going to try and put it in this weekend.
Have you hooked up your headlight switch yet?
A tech article would be very cool to get since I've never seen a 4th gen dash install in person, only pics online.
Oh, I am also working on my drivers side 4th gen door panel.
I want it to sit as flush as possible with no visible gaps along the bottom or between the window seals.

jay311md

Here are some pics of how far I've gotten so far...

You know what they say, "Slow and steady wins the race."

lol

jay311md

2

jay311md

3

I know it looks like kind of a mess....however, i've gotten all of the wires for the doors run and hooked up. The 4th gen harness is routed through the tunnel at the top of the fire wall. All of the other wires are from the 3rd gen harness.

jay311md

I've got both doors taken care of now and once I get the door lock actuators in, the door panels are ready to be fitted to the door.

jay311md

That's a pic of the heating/ac duct I fabbed to fit the circular outlet on the 4th gen dash.

jay311md

I got my new overhead console done. It took me forever to fab a metal plate for the switches. I then anodized the plate blue and fabbed up an LED light for it.

jay311md

Those obviously are the white face gauges I made. I also made white face HVAC and headlight switch gauges.

jay311md

I really like the way the trip switch turned out. It really looks good with the blue in the gauges.

jay311md

Again, used the blue to compliment the second trim color. Here's the center console.

jay311md

Let me know what you think so far. I got a lot of work to do, but once the dash is in, it's all down hill from there. I'll probably order the LS1, T56, and 4th gen rear in the next couple of weeks. Then it's on to the next swap.

jay311md

Zepher, concerning the headlight switch, I took a look at the schematics for the 4th and 3rd gen headlight switch. THey are almost identical. SO if you simply splice the appropriate wires, it should all work just fine. That way you don't have to worry about the headlamp motors (firebird) or getting into any other systems.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Cool thanks.
Any tips you can provide will be very helpful.

jay311md

When you start your swap, try and have a vision of what you want it to look like in the end. Are you going to use the vents? Do you want AC/Heat, or do you simply want the dash and gauges the only operational component? For me, I want everything associated with the dash and door panels to be functional. Then I thought about it, and since a lot of the components of the dash are associated with the engine. So my next logical step is to use the complete drivetrain from an LS1 4th gen. That way I don't have to worry about using any kind of aftermarket part like the Dakota Digital box, the VSS will work just fine, and hell, maybe I'll find some way to get the traction control to function (highly doubtful though). So keep at it, and make sure to have a plan together before you start to disassemble your car.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

I am only going to use heat. Floor and defrost only.
center 3 vents are going to hold gauges.
door panels will have the switches for the windows and locks.
I've got an LT1 and 4L60E already in the car and my stock dash is already out.
It's not the prettiest thing parked on a driveway, but eventually, it will be one of the nicer ones.




Here is a site made by a member of cz28.com
http://csce.uark.edu/~jgbertr/rb/4th_gen_tech1.html
His username is Shoebox and the site has a lot of useful things, like pics of sensors and locations of dash and engine parts as well as wiring diagrams,

jay311md

That's the route I'm kind of going. The center vents will have 3 gauges...my floor, defrost, and the outer vents will work. I'm keeping my AC just in case I move somewhere hot, like back to Oklahoma or Texas. Can't live in the midwest without it.

Power door stuff is already hooked up. Using the 4th gen harness and fuse block...just have to plan out how I'm gonna delete the 3rd gen harness. Because I got an estimate for how much my LS1 swap is gonna be...might be a little longer than I thought. But the wiring is coming together nicely.

I have a compustar alarm, and when I had it installed I only had the alarm feature installed. It was like 200 less than the full remote start/alarm. When I took it out tonight, I noticed a lot of the wires were either cut or not spliced onto my harness. So I did a little research and downloaded the installation manual for my car. Turns out, they only made one unit. They didn't make a separate unit for alarm only. So I'm gonna hook it up to also have remote start. So other than that, just have some more wires to hook up and install the dash, and put my interior back in.

CrazyHawaiian

Lookn good!! I'm not sure when I'm going to start my 4th gen interior retrofit on my 91 Z28. I'm going to be using 1999 T/A parts (dash, doors, consoles, seats, belts, etc). I'm pretty sure its going to happen right after I do my 749 Sy/Ty ECM swap, while the stock dash is still out. Just need to make sure I dont do too much at once or it'll be impossible to troubleshoot stuff if it dosnt work. Cant wait to see your tech article!! I saved a bunch of stuff on the swap, but I havent gotten serious enough about it to write a tech article or anything. In all honesty, I dont think I'll be doing this for another 6 months (got soooo much other stuff to do first like cooling and brakes). Keep up the good work!!

jay311md

I hear that. Don't try and do too much or you'll get swamped and keep jumping from project to project. Get organized and do each one at a time. DOn't put too big a load on the table and always stay organized.

jay311md

I made a bunch of phone calls today to a variety of places asking about the LS1/T56 swap I'm going to do. I found a place that will give me anything I need to do the swap for 5000. Since it's only 2 hours away, I can pick it up, don't have to pay shipping, and is in a state I don't have to pay sales tax on. So I'll probably get that swap going in about a month, maybe two. So that's good news...

I got the 3rd gen harness out, and have run all the wires for the dash. I have to shim the dash a little bit to get the 3rd gen heating ducts to fit. But only like a 1/4 to 1/2".

Any comments or questions, don't hesitate to ask. Please don't flame me though.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

When you say you got the 3rd gen harness out, do you mean all the wires behind the dash including the fuse box?
pics would help a lot since I am going to do mine step by step by going with the info you provide.

Thanks a bunch.
Oh, and I picked up an 88 Firebird Formula today so I can be back on the road again. Kinda hard to have your daily driver down for 15 months. Pics are in this thread

jay311md

I'll try and get some pics up shortly...it's always good to have a daily driver available. Another 3rd gen is always a good thing to have. This is my daily driver....

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Damn, I wish I had that as a daily driver.
I got to drive my friends Daily driver, 01 ZO6 with an ugly covering over the top.

jay311md

I hate that cover, but still it's a z06... I just got a corsa exhaust system put on it for free. The details are too lengthy to get into. Let's just say that GM screwed up big time, rather the dealership did. So they ate the cost of the exhaust system, so I'm not complaining. It's got quite a few mods. I love it and all, but I still love my 3rd gen...has more sentimental value to me. I've been thinking about colors I'm gonna paint it. The other day I saw a new corvette painted medium spiral gray...all I could say was WOW. I'm thinking I might paint it that color...or maybe electron metallic blue. But that will be much later....

RIght now I'm gonna finish the interior, then move on to the drivetrain, then do some suspension work....get everything up and running...then I'll do the beauty stuff.

86irocss

I myself would like to have all of the info you have on a 4th gen swap, But I don't have MSN messenger. Could you please e-mail it to me at irocss89@yahoo.com?

I also have some questions:

1. did you have to modify the brackets to get the center console in place?
2. How about the shape of the windshield, how much diffrent is the 3rd gen from the 4th gen in reguards to the mounting of the dash unit where it meets the windshield?
3. Would I have to also do a complete engine/tranny swap to get the dash to work right, or could I stick with my 5.7 TPI and Auto Tranny in my IROC.


Matthew

jay311md

I'm in the process right now of doing the complete swap. I try to post any advice I might have, and I'm trying to post my progress as I get to it. I work 50 hours per week, so I don't have a lot of time to work on my car. But it's coming along pretty well.

1. did you have to modify the brackets to get the center console in place?

The 4th gen center console is a direct bolt in. It will line up with all of the existing holes and brackets. However, this is only for the manual console...if you have an automatic console, it will require a little fabricating and adjusting to get it to work.

2. How about the shape of the windshield, how much diffrent is the 3rd gen from the 4th gen in reguards to the mounting of the dash unit where it meets the windshield?

The 4th gen dash will line up with the firewall very well. The area behind the dash mounting bolts and the windshield is a much larger area than on the 3rd gen. SO the crash pad needs to be trimmed accordingly. But otherwise, the dash is also pretty close to a direct bolt in. The lower connecting bolts need to be bent, but that really is not that big of a deal.

3. Would I have to also do a complete engine/tranny swap to get the dash to work right, or could I stick with my 5.7 TPI and Auto Tranny in my IROC.

No, you don't have to swap out your motor or tranny. However, since you have an 86 IROC, you will need to get a dakota digital box to send the correct vss signal to the speedo and tach. Otherwise, your gauges will read incorrect. I'm doing the LS1/T56 swap to make my ride a little more wild and also to get the big boost of power and performance. I love the LS1, I have a 2001 Vette, and just love that engine. From 2k to 6k you can feel the power just pouring on. My overall goal for my 3rd gen is to make it a good 11 sec. car. I know it's very possible, just have to get the right combination.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Where can I find that dakota digital box?

If that box is as expensive as I think it is, I won't be able to do the mod for a while, so is their any feasible (yet foolish I know) way to maintain the thirdgen gauges in the 4th gen dash or ?

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

Is it truly easier to throw a 4thgen bird dash in than it is a 4thgen camaro dash?

jay311md

Where can I find that dakota digital box?

You can get the box from dakotadigital.com I don't think it's very expensive. But do a search and find the part number. If it's the one I think it is, it's only like $50. Basically, it's for the transmission, the 3rd gens send a pulse at a different rate than the 4th gens. So the DD box changes the pulse rate and makes the gauges read right.

is their any feasible (yet foolish I know) way to maintain the thirdgen gauges in the 4th gen dash

If you mean to use the 3rd gen gauges with the 4th gen dash, then the answer is no. You would have to seriously hack up both the gauges and the dash to make them work. A guy on here used the 3rd gen gauges on his 4th gen dash, but they looked like dog ****.

Is it truly easier to throw a 4thgen bird dash in than it is a 4thgen camaro dash?

They are both the same. It only matters on which look you like better. For me I like the look of the 3 vents in the center, I'm going to put 3 gauges in them. I am going to put a fuel pressure, intake air temperature, and boost gauge.

CustomX

actually the only one that owuld be harder then the others is the 97 up maro, espeically the 98 up guages (since ls1 tach is 4cyl, need a tach recalibrator wether or not you have a 4kppm vss), also the 97 up maro dash fits up to the dash pad much different, where as the 96 earlier maro pad is rather straight, the 97 up is very curved aroudnt eh cluster area.

jay311md

I'm going to run an LS1, T56, and 4th gen rear. Basically, I won't have to worry about any of the complications with the vss. It is a little rounded around the cluster, but when the crash pad is trimmed and fit to the dash, it should line up just fine.

CustomX

the firebird dash is an easier swap then the 97 up maro dash. If i were to do it again, id go with the birdy setup just for ease.

jay311md

i chose the 2001 TA dash only because I liked the way it looked. I was thinking about all the things I'm going to do to my car after all the swaps are done. First thing that came to mind was supercharger. I would like to have a boost gauge, but I hate the a pillar gauges. So when I saw the 3 vents in the center, i knew that was the dash I was gonna go with. I've been learning everything else as I go. I'm in the process right now of getting the door panels on, so far so good.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I have an LS1 camaro cluster. We tested my Maro cluster in my brothers 96 Trans Am and all the gauges worked perfect except for the tach. Tach read 1500 or so at idle and when the motor was revved to about 4K, the needle on the tach was pegged past 7. Does that sound like an LS1 cluster?