Let's say i can maybe get some Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads with 2k miles on them. 180 cc intake, 76 cc exhaust, 64 cc chambers. I believe they are the first generation style also.

#1 - Are they 50-state legal?

#2 - Are they problem prone, i.e. do the valve guides wear out? do they crack?

#3 - How much are they worth now?

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

I had a set of TFS G1 heads a while back and yes, the valve guides did wear out. That was mainly because of the rocker arm geometry and the .536/.555 lift cam I was using. After I noticed alot of blue smoke out the tail pipe, I pulled the heads, removed the springs and found that there was so much "slop" in the valve guides as well as a couple of slightly bent valves. After all that headache, I sent them back to trickflow, had them reconditioned and sold them! Oh and also, I bought these heads brand new, had the intake runners ported and the combustion chambers polished by a trick flow distributor and within a few months I noticed the excessive oil buring issue. It wasn't until after I had changed all the valve seals (twice), that I suspected the valve guides. Also dealing with trickflow was not a pleasureable task (won't go into that). The G1 heads had some design issues (someone else can probably detail the specifics of those, i have pretty much forgotten).
Anyway, IMO, stay away from trickflow especially for chevy's. I now have GM fast burn heads and I like them alot.

 

I had similar problems with the tws G2's. However, I did check the push rod geometry and STILL had the problems. Matter of fact, when I took the heads to the shop, they said, damn! Teh valve guides are just slop! they were off many .01's and the machinist could not beleive the crap they sold me! I called TWS and their tech dept was as helpful as a turd in the toilet! Then, after my misfortune of the valve guides..a few years later, the owner who was a user on this board told me I was using the "wrong push rod checker" and was more than willing to help me ....YEARS AFTER THE FACT? Yea, that's good customer service, a few years late and a little over a thousand dollars later. I would not take a pair of the TWS twisted wedge heads if you GAVE THEM TO ME! Sure they do preform well, but they are garbage when it comes to craftmanship AND customer service!

 

I couldn't agree with you more Raiden!

 

Neil:
I cannot speak for how you were treated before late-99 when I started handling the technical phone line / emails. But I can say there was a serious "house cleaning" ( if you get what I mean...) at the time of my move to this position.

Before taking this position I was in the cylinder head room (Prepping heads for the dyno tests / general repair...) So there are not many people who have seen as many of these heads as me.

We had some issues with those heads, It is no secret. But to be perfectly honest, For every failure that was caused due to component failure there were five failures because of improper parts selection / set up.

We did have a problem in 1995ish with K-Motion spring failures.

Like I said, Not every problem was due to the head itself...

craiger (I mean Raiden...):

First of all, I am not the owner of TFS.

Now, I tried to help you repeatedly on this forum openly (As well as PM) in regards to why you had issues. You even asked me why you kept blowing the head gaskets on your AFR headed engine.(Remember?...) After explaining in great detail where you had made some errors you are still saying that we (I in particular) did not try to help you. You know this is false.

As for your verifying the rocker arm geometry, You were using a plastic checking tool that does not match the actual body length of the rocker arm you were using on the engine. As for the rocker arm you were using, It was not the correct choice either as the length from the rocker stud to the valvetip was too long. What did you do to compensate for this? You shortened the pushrod so the rocker tip would sit in the center of the valvetip at zero lift. Well at zero lift the problem is not there, The problem is when you start to open the valve the rocker arm will shoot all the way across the valvetip to the outside edge and will side load the valveguides. (It does not matter what length pushrod you use either as the body length is constant...) This was pointed out to you.

By the way, You did not have the G2 heads, You had the G1's.

Again, I do understand that I cannot turn back time & fix the converstaions that you had with people who no longer work here, But you need to come clean & admit that you were treated fairly when you spoke / emailed back & forth with me.

I cannot account for what was said/done before my taking this position. All I can say is that if you guys would like to call me and talk about it, Please feel free...

You can email me here at: akakiou@trickflow.com or you can call me at 330-630-1555 Ext 6324. I am here from 9am-5pm Mon-Fri.

RednGold86Z:
Email me or give me a call, I will be more than happy to answer your questions..

 

I've only considered the heads, never owned them. What I had heard (and that prior to becoming a TGO regular) was always with regard to valve guide wear problems.

By any chance does using roller tip rockers help the situation?

 

First off, I DID have the G2 heads. Second off, my head gasket only blew once because of my supercharger, I changed to the flepro gasket pt#1010 and have not have the problem since. Let me make myself clear. I don't want to ever sound like I am attacking you! You did try and help me with my problems of blowing my headgasket and it was greatly apprictated. To me,you seem to be a stellar individual! However, I did not deal with artie when I had my vett and the G2 heads. And I was dicked around by trrick flow durring that time. AFter TWS had my $$$ and I had my experience with trickflow, I never would pruchase them again! I did consider the 23 deg. heads for my Z, but went with afr instead due to my Horbile experience with tirckflow. NOw IF Artie would have been there during the time I had my vett and the G2 heads, I'm sure he would have helped me with my vett as he was trying to with my problem with my Z. I may have purchased the heads for my Z from trickflow in that case. Consequenlty, My experince with TWS in both customer service and craftmanship sucked! I had a ZZ4 cam in the vett and stock 1.5rockers. the twisted wedge heads
were sent the machine shop could not beleive the slop in the valve guides..BRONZE valve guides at that......AND, I was not the only one to have problems with the twisted wedge heads and to drop another G on the same company, well, I been down that road. Artie, you have a great Customer service disipline! But my experience with some of teh former crew/customer service of tws just made my enitre experience really bad! Sorry if this offends you, not meant to hit you personally, just my opinion from my past Experience with the twisted wedge. In contrast , I HAVE heard good things about the 23 deg heads. But with my past experience with tws, would YOU spend another 1100$$ of your hard earned money on trick flow heads after that or purchase AFR's for 1200? Too bad TWS cleaned up thier act after the fact, but atleast they are on the right track.

 

I have used the G2 heads ONCE. They absolutely rocked (far exceeded my expectations). I'll put them up against a set of AFR 195s any day of the week. The exhaust flowed SO well that I found single pattern cams really worked well with them- even though street mufflers. TFS's recommendations on pushrod length on their website were.... well... "out to lunch." Any hardcore hotrodder would just measure and buy the right length anyway. But at that time (several years ago) the website remmendations could have caused problems for somebody just buying parts from internet specs. Never had a guide or spring problem with mine.

Now TFS doesn't sell them any more and their website acts like they never existed. Everything for the weekend wrench is centered around their 23* heads. A shame, really. The twisted wedge heads were a really good design, in my opinion but I think they got a bad quality reputation and that killed them.

Something that always blew me away was how well the exhaust flowed on the G2s, even though the exhausts were at a standard 23* angle. You would expect that to be the weak link, but it wasn't.

 

Yea, the twisted wedge to preform well, but my experience with them and the machine shop I took them too said that the Craftmanship sucked! My AFR's preform BETTER with no hassels! You could not give me a pair of the twisted wedge series. After spending that much money, using the proper push rod checker to measure the push rod geomentry and the crapy customer service I recieved from them. They had their money and that was that! Never again!

 

five7kid:

So long as you use the recommended rocker arms & verify the valvetrain geometry as outlined in the instructions, You will not have any premature wear issues.

Here is a list of the recommended rocker arms:

Competition Cams "Pro Magnum"
Crane Cams "Gold"
Summit "Extruded Rockers"
GM stock stamped steel (For camshafts UNDER .450" lift...)
TFS

Here is the list of rockers we do not recommend:

Competition Cams "Magnum Roller Tip"
Crane Cams "Silver" (Energizer)
Harland Sharp
Proform
CAT

The reason why there are some rockers that are recommended and some that are not is rather simple. Alot of the aftermarket rocker arms do not maintain the factory GM (Or Ford, Or Mopar, Or whatever...) center to center distances from the rocker stud to the valve tip.
As an example, Look at the Crane Energizer # 11746-16 in the Crane Cams catalog. You will notice that they have that part number listed as working on an AMC, SBC, "Magnum" Mopar & SBF engine families. How can one rocker arm fit several different engine families correctly? Simple, It cannot.....
You need to invest in a high quality rocker arm & set it up with an adjustable checking pushrod on your particular combination in order to see how all of the tolerances stack up in the as used condition.

You would not believe the amount of people who were using .470"-.510" lift cams with a stock GM rocker arm. For those of you who did not know, A stock GM rocker will only support up to about .450" lift before it binds up on the rocker arm stud. Can you guess what happens when a rocker arm binds on the stud? (It will sideload the valveguide & wipe it out, In a hurry...)

Do not misinterpret what I am typing, On an inline valve arrangement (Including our 23* head...) you can use pretty much any rocker you want, & so long as you get the geometry close it will be fine, But on a rotated valve cylinder head you need to follow the recommendations / installation instructions...

Damon:

The G2 heads have a 16* intake / 18* exhaust valve angle. The G1 has a 13* intake / 23* exhaust valve angle.

The easiest way identify which head you have is to look at the pushrod guideplate, If it is flat you have a G2, If it is a stepped design (Looks like a mini BBC guideplate) you have a G1 head.

If the heads do not have guideplates, The serial number is the next best way to identify them.

G1: Will be less than 80,000.
G2: Begins at 80,000.

The serial number is stamped on the exhaust flange in between the exhaust ports.

I, for one, Wish they did not go away. That head makes phenomenal power right out of the box.

craiger (Raiden..)

In your particular combination, You had wear issues because you did not use the correct rocker arm for your set up. You were using a stock GM rocker with a .480"-.500 lift camshaft (if I remember correctly...) It does not matter if you checked the valvetrain geometry with a 24k gold adjustable pushrod, You had a valvetain binding issue. There is no way any cylinder head would survive a bound up valvetrain.

I explained the reason for not using the plastic "generic rocker" checking tool as it does NOT simulate the actual rocker arm you will be using, So how can you say that you checked it correctly when in fact you did not?

Any engine builder worth his salt is using the actual rocker arm that is going to be installed on the engine when he is setting up the valvetrain geometry. This is the only correct way to do it. You cannot use anything other than the actual rocker arm and expect to get exacting results.

However, I do understand that you are/were frustrated with your situation, But you need to realize that your particular situation was not caused by the head itself.

People, We have all made these same mistakes in our journeys from novice engine assemblers to experienced engine builders, So do not sweat it, (embrace it!..) Just chalk it up to experience...

By the way, The G2 head has powdered metal, smooth bore valveguides (The same as what is used in all of GM's current offerings...) as standard issue. We have never seen a G2 fail when the geometry is set up correctly.
We did offer a manganese bronze valveguide option for the people who wanted it, But it was not "better" than the powdered metal...

At any rate, Give me a call or email me if there are any questions on any of our products & I will be more than happy to help you out ...

 

Artie,

Good to hear/read from you! I know that our conversations were not under the best circumstances, but I am sure you realized the degree of my frustrations. Those frustrations were based on throwing away approx. $2G's on the TFS heads. Now, if I could address some of your points:
Yes, however, that didn't change the fact that TFS used the customers as thier R&D platform at our expense! Artie, I have talked to not 1, not 2, but 10+ people with bad experiences with TFS heads. Bottom line, TFS had a new design that wasn't tested thoroughly! IMO, that doesn't say much for the company itself especially when a faulty product was produced, sold and not backed with a guarantee. If you remember, I had to pay a significant amount after you re-conditioned my heads and we did argue about that quite a bit. Your main point was that your authorized distributor performed some out of the box modifications (intake porting and combustion chamber polishing) to the heads and that TFS was not responsible. You see, Artie, I have the outlook that people/companies should be liable for there actions or lack thereof.

Anyway, I am not trying to rehash anything with you I just want to share my experiences I had with these heads when asked.

Redngold86z: My recommendation to you is put your money back in your pocket and buy something other that the TFS G1 style head! If you insist on these heads then definitely talk to Artie in regards to setting them up for your application, he does know his stuff! Or read the boards and see what people are using with success. I am using GM fast burn heads now with a strong cam and comp. cams dual valve springs (max .600 lift) and I haven't had any problems.

 

A set of ported vortecs or a set of mildy ported fast-burns is the way to go for a strong AND reliable street motor.

My particular set of vortec heads flow 278 cfm @. 500 !!

Just my $.02

 

The TWS tech mentioned that my particular combo was fine with the stock stamped steel rockers and they told me I to make sure to use a "push rod checker", however, they never mentioned ANYTHING about not using the manley pushrod checker! I REALLY wish you were working there when I was dealing with all of this! IT leaves a bad taste in one's mouth! Dang! I really wish you were there durring this hassel!

As for Neil's comment, I could not agree more!

 

Thanks everyone,
I 100% don't want to have to even worry about taking everything off and fixing the heads. I do need to be Kalifornia legal though, so Vortecs are out, so are Vette aluminums, and fastburns. It's a street car too, so 170-195 cc intake ports are about all I'll want.
I'm throwing a 2032 cam, 2055 headers, and (hopefully) Edelbrock intake base and runners on, and just want to get the heads done too. But, the car isn't a show car or a race car (only a dyno queen, since we have a dyno at work and it's free), so I was hoping to keep the cost from totally getting out of hand, since the car won't gain much/any value. And, I want to do it all in 1 weekend, which I can do time/skill-wise, unless I decide it's better to have the heads ported, but ported stock heads won't come close to a set of aluminum aftermarkets. Also, I want to gasket match the heads and intake before installing them, which puts the stockers another notch down on the desirable list.

Anyway, I'm going to stay away from twisted wedge G1 and G2.

Thanks

 

If you have not purchased your headers, click on the ACS, American coating specialities. I got my headman's from them for a steal! They are having a sale this month too!

 

My 2055 hookers coated and coated y-pipe should be here today. I ordered them from ACS.

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

Mine should be here anyday! MAN, ACS has great customer service! Really helpful and they know thier stuff!

 

I've had Crower enduro 1.5's on mine for 88k. No problems yet.