At the Div V ET Finals in Topeka last week, it was 90 degrees out, they were calling us right back into the staging lanes after the 3rd round, the starter would barely turn the engine over, and I was afraid to run the electric radiator fan to cool it off before heading back for the next run for fear it would drain the battery even more.

I'm blaming the standard duty full-size starter. Battery was okay, but just couldn't kick the starter over very well when everything was so hot.

The Summit Hitachi mini arrived today, along with a remote solenoid. Can't believe how small that starter really is (1st one I've had). But, it's supposed to put out more torque while drawing fewer amps, so we'll see how it does. The remote solenoid is really belt-and-suspenders, I suppose, but I got it anyway. I don't want any of those problems in Pomona (although this time I will have use of a tow/pit vehicle in the form of a 30' motor home - which just happens to have an APU/120 VAC generator).

(For the record, the 396 has both staggered and straight across starter mount bolt holes...)

 

Gear reduction starter is really the only way to go these days. Makes a huge difference. You can run all the timing you want, in stinking hot conditions and the car will crank fine everytime.

 

I`ve always ran two selnoids on mine the ford type and the the one on the hitachi, I like having that 4 gauage wire activating both circuts at the same time. The voltage drop from the ign switch thru the harness/neutral saftey is a lot for these old cars, I`ve seen as much as four volts lost between the key and starter

 

I would not bother with the outboard solenoid. It accomplishes nothing, and just adds unnecessary complexity.

You'll LOVE the gear reduction though. You won't believe how slow that old Delco POS was turning the engine. You may even find that you had developed a few habits over the years to work around having a weak starter, that you didn't even realize you had, and you don't need any more. You can actually just turn the key any time you want, and it will whirl the motor over like it's supposed to (and like practically every other brand of car in the world does, besides GM). Amazing!

 

A couple of years ago, I ran all new, larger copper from the ignition switch to the ignition and starter. Although it helped at the time, I still had problems as the starter got tired in late 2002. A new rebuilt from Carquest made a big difference, and after I've had the trickle charger on all week it'll spin over nicely. But, when it's gotten hot and I've had the fan on to help cool it off between runs, it definately slows down again.

If nothing else, the remote gives easier access to hook up the remote starter switch and timing light.

I'm looking forward to having it all installed. One more race this Friday (assuming it doesn't get rained out - isn't looking good right now), then the long wait before California...

 

I just picked up a CVR mini starter on monday (part# 5323). the solenoid on my stock style starter decided to take a crap on me saturday night, and the starter was beginning to make some unhealthy noises, so i figured it was time to upgrade. granted a few whacks on the solenoid with a hammer got it going again, i know its on its way out. it has given me good service for 2 years, sitting right next to a set of hedman long tubes, so i cant complain (plus it was used when i got it; traded my used one from my 305 for it).

anyway, the CVR piece is real nice. even better, it is made in Canada. i look forward to testing it out. i just need to set the clearance on it and shim it accordingly, then wire it, then reinstall the header, etc.

 

They didn't include enough shims. I gave it a try anyway, and it sticks for a second after the engine starts. I'll get some more shims and try again this evening.

I see what you mean about the starting differences. It'll take a little getting used to (actually sounds/feels like it's turning over slower). I did drive it around a little to get it warm, I usually keep it below 170 at the track, got it up to 190 last night. It turned it right over again (although admittedly it hadn't completely heat soaked with what I did).

Oh, the vehicle voltage seems a little better with the remote solenoid. Probably established a little better contact with the battery cable when reconnecting it.

May have to wait a little longer to give it the track test. Cold and rain forecast for Friday, I was thinking I'd ask for a kitchen pass for Saturday since I had planned on one more race experience Friday night. Now the boss (the weekday one) is talking about me coming in this weekend...

 

If I put headers on an engine I install a high torque mini/gear reduction starter along with it almost always. First time I used one I couldn't beleive the difference in hot start behavior.

Once you've done the futile exercise of starter heat shields and header wraps (which make only marginal improvements, if any at all) the mini stater is like a miracle. Like "where you been all my life??"

I have grown partial to the GMPP mini starter (which ain't cheap but is quality). There are also cheper knock-offs of the GMPP starter that others have had good luck with. Thing I like about this starter is that you just bolt it on- no shimming unless your original starter used one.

 

Are you talking about one of these? http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...tart&catid=698 If so, which one?

I don't recall shimming any Chevy starter until now. I've had to shim my 3800 Bonneville starters, though.

 

I love my mini starter. The first time I cranked it, I thought it would flip the car, there is that much torque.

HELP!!! With the new motor, with the ignition disconnected, the starter will crank fine, all day long. Now, hook up the ignition, and as soon as the motor starts to catch, I hear a grinding noise like the starter's not releasing and getting chewed up by the flywheel. When I look at it, I have a gap between the gear of the bendix and flywheel that I can fit about 10 sheets of paper in.
Old motor, stock 350, with 153 tooth flywheel, no shimming required.
New motor, 383 with 168 tooth SCI flywheel, no shims around to shim with.
Could I possibly have the flywheel on backwards??

 

Hey Five7kid, did you get your brother's 350 in the Berly yet ? If so I hope you've taken pics!!

 

Well, that's another story. Another brother, who's only a couple of hours from Omaha (and who helped with the engine change-out process), decided he wanted a "project". I didn't have any better arguement from the standpoint of "need" than he, so, the old 350 is in his garage now.

Now, back to the mini...

I rechecked the clearances per the instructions sheet - .100 +/- .040" between face of the starter gear and flexplate in retracted position - it's .140" (no adjustment available for this).

.010-.030" backlash in the engaged position - tried everything from next to nothing to over .040" - still the same thing. When the engine starts, it doesn't disengage for a few to several seconds.

I watched it just running the starter with a remote starter switch (ignition off) - it would remain engaged more often than it would disengage. It was most likely to disengage if the engine rocked backwards after I let off the switch. Just pulling the pinion gear out, it would stay out even though it wasn't being held by the flexplate.

Is this "normal", or do I have a defective starter? Can I expect it to "loosen up" with time & use?

 

Guess I'll call Summit today and whine to them. Being a '66 block, it shouldn't have RB's "The Starter Problem". Looks square and aligned as best I can tell (unless the .140" gap is really beyond it's capability).

 

Okay, took me until today to get them on the phone. Described how I had installed it, clearances obtained, what it was doing. "Bad Bendix." They're shipping a replacement Monday, with a return shipper for the original. Didn't argue, hem, or haw, just offered to ship (w/o me having to send back the one I've got first).

I hope their bending-over-backwards-ness isn't based on their experience with the product.

 

The replacement starter arrived Wednesday. The Bendix does move more easily than the first one. Finally got it installed last night (knee was scoped last Tuesday, kind of limited my activities), acts exactly the same way.

I'm tempted to put the factory style back on and let Summit have their little starter back. So far, I'm not impressed. I'm thinking the remote solenoid will cure most of the "problem", and at least in Pomona, having an RV with an APU in the pits will take care of the rest...

 

is this mini starter the same as the LT1 mini starter? I hear good things about the bolt-in-and-go LT1 mini starter.

 

It's a Hitachi style starter sold as a Summit brand.

 

Just would like to say that I've had the Summit mini starter for my supercharged big block since I first installed it about 5 years ago, and once it is shimmed correctly (I recall it took me awhile to get it right), it has worked flawlessy. Like RB83L69, I don't use a solenoid either, since it is unnecessary and just further complicates things. Keep in mind also, I have 2 1/4" primary tube headers wrapping all around this thing, in the tight confines of a 3rd gen chassis, and have no hot restart issues. Sorry to hear about your bad experiences with this starter five7kid - with the outstanding performance I've had with mine, I find it so hard to believe you've had trouble with 2 of them. Maybe they've changed vendors since I bought mine?

 

Any recollection of the shimming details? As related above, it didn't seem to affect operation at the extremes or in the middle. If it is affected by a few thousandths, I may have given up too early.

Also wonder about the vendor change possibility (based on the "bending-over-backwards-ness" observation above).

 

I can't recall offhand since it was done so long ago. I do have my engine out of the car though - I'll take a look at it when I get a chance (I'm currently at work).

 

I think I have about 3/32" or so of shims... like one medium one and one thin one. Kind of alot really.

 

That's what I used, which produced .025" backlash. No shims (less than .010" backlash), a full pack of shims (over .050" backlash), or where it is, it acts exactly the same - won't disengage when the engine starts.

 

Never got an answer about the GM unit. Is this it? http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/698/...ni-Starter.htm

Only a few bucks more than the Summit mini.

 

I'm not sure what your Summit starter(s) looked like, but that "GM" starter looks exactly like my Summit mini starter (sans the Bowtie ).

 

The Summit mini I got looks like the GM mini in general, but completely different in the little details. The motor is different, the solenoid is different, the mount block is different, the housing connecting the solenoid & motor is different, etc.

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...m-g1660a_w.jpg

 

Summit must have changed their vendor since I bought mine years ago. I'd get the GM one in the pic - It's exactly the same as mine (motor, solenoid, housing, block, etc), and mine works great.

 

I just love returning stuff...

This one http://static.summitracing.com/globa...pwm-9000_w.jpg (PVM-9000) looks more like the GM unit. Perhaps they'd exchange.

Or, I can just go back to the "stock" starter...

 

This is the one I have http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...14&prmenbr=361

 

You can also get those starters at places like Advance Auto Parts... Try the part number 3510GRHBK.. Its $172.88 and usually available within a day.. (fits 153/168 tooth, looks just like this one that five7kid mentioned)..

 

I too use the remote solenoid on my standard gm starter and love it. .But i've heard that it doesnt work with the mini starters. It causes the exact problem you have in fact.

See the mini starters use permanent magnets instead of windings. When you stop turning the key the starter gear is still engaged in the flywheel and the starter becomes a generator. With the main post and solenoid post fastened together the electricity generated operates the solenoid and keeps the whole thing engaged.

Remove the bypass and hook the solenoid back up to the key switch and the starter should work normally again.

 

The good news is that makes more sense than anything I've heard.

The bad news is, why didn't I think of that?

And, why didn't Summit think of that?

And, that means I have to give up the remote solenoid, which I kinda liked, and they probably won't take that back.

Maybe I can use the remote on the Camaro...

I'll try putting it back to "normal" tomorrow night. Too late to get to it tonight.

 

Been reading this thread and have NO additional content to add as to how to fix it but. . .

The generator thing is kind of interesting except: We've ran them on dirt modified cars with at least three major brands of mini-starters including a chrome GM mini starter, cheap brand, etc. Always ran them off of a Ford solenoid with the solenoid on the starter jumperd to the main post on the starter. Never had any problem. These cars do not run an alternator though, if that would make any difference.

Biggest problem I had with one starter was it had to be shimmed BACK .060 with the supplied spacers.



Hope you fix it, it's these kinds of threads that save ME time, trouble and money!

 

It's worth a try. The fact that the first one wouldn't disengage when I tried it with the remote starter switch & ignition off does cast some suspicion on the theory.

 

Five 7- sorry I lost track of this thread for a while. Here's the exact starter I have on my car:

http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/698/...ce-Starter.htm

It's only for a 168 tooth flywheel and uses a factory offset bolt pattern just like a full size starter would on a truck motor that uses the larger 168 tooth flywheel. I have used it on 383s and 400s becuase those motors always use the larger 168 tooth flywheel unless they have been internally balanced.

Hopefully you have a 168 tooth flexplate/flywheel on your motor. Also, make sure the block is drilled for the offset bolt pattern style starter. Usually they are drilled for both starter bolt patterns, but not always.

 

It's 168 tooth and drilled for both patterns.

I removed the bus bar used with the remote starter, and put the battery cable, accessory power wire, and start wire directly onto the starter solenoid - i.e., no remote solenoid anymore.

Drum roll, please...............









It works just fine now.

Guess chevymad's theory checks out. :hail: Not sure why SMasterson's dirt cars don't have the problem. Of course, Fxxd's use the remote solenoid and have a different starter design.

I emailed Summit customer service to let them know what happened. Nowhere do they say not to use the remote solenoid with a permanent magnet starter.

 

Now a FAQ, too: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=263394

 

I received this reply from Brad in Summit Customer Service:
"I haven't seen this as a problem all the time, but have seen it happen occasionally. We will look into it further on our end. Thanks for pointing out a potential problem, we appreciate the feedback."

I wrote back suggesting a note to that effect within their remote solenoid information.

 

Good to know. I use a remote starter and a " Generic " mini starter and have never had this problem. Must have something to do with how much voltage is produced by the starter and how many windings in the solenoid. Obviously it is a problem with some starters but not with others.

Definately a " keeper"