1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

After about 6 months this M90 project has all come together! Alot of headachs and pain but it was well worth it. I finally got the belt and tensioner pulley on, and had great results, everything works like it should, just very noisy!...not that thats a bad thing lol im still waiting on the intercooler to mount and finish routing the 3" outlet pipe and im set besides tuning. One problem ive had is finding a boot to slip on to my TB that comes out 3" where the MAF hooks up. If anyone knows where i could get one i could finish this darn thing. Ive looked at lowes and home depot and a local hardware store but found nothing that would fit. The TB diam. is about 3.9" oval shaped i believe, and it needs to come out into a 3" circle. Wish i had some pics to show u guys!! I should have some up at the end of next week when my brother brings his digital camara home

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

strait or 90 ? there are tons of 90 throttle body elbows

87Formula4bbl

He needs a 90* elbow. My only concern with using the LT1 elbow from either Vortech or Trick Flow was that the LT1 TBs were a bit larger, but after reading some other posts I guess that one should work. I had him measure the circumference and I worked out a diameter of 3.9" but taking into account of calculation errors I'm sure that that is close enough to 4 inches (which I read that the LT1 TBs are, so I am assuming all TPI TBs are too). Anyhow...

I had the priviledge of hearing him start it up over the phone and I couldn't even hear the car running, just a 'ZZZZZZZZZ!'...crazy. Now he just needs to mount his intercooler and run the lines from SC outlet to IC and from IC -> MAF -> TB. Not sure what we are going to do for a bypass valve yet, I have a stock one from a Thundercoupe coming and we'll see if that will work.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Since when? The LT1 and TPI TB’s are identical besides having slight differences in the casting where the TPS mounts and the bracket at the end of the throttle shaft. I actually have some throttle plates out of an LT1 TB in my TPI TB right now

87Formula4bbl

What I meant was, I wasn't sure about them before. I THOUGHT that they might be different, but after searching recently (since TGO has been back up...) I found that others are using the LT1 elbow on TPI TBs, so apparently it is the same size. He told me he ordered the Trick Flow one the other day from Summit. Nice looking piece.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

yes i ordered the trick flow elbow from summit and it fits alright. Only problem was it was hitting on the alt. bracket but i think i can get it to work. I finally got my intercooler yesterday so ill probably be spending the day mounting that and finish routing the pipes. Hope to have some pics up tonite!!!

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

pic 1

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

pic 2

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh… why exactly did you make the outlet on the blower dump out to the side if you were just going to put a 90* bend in it and there is nothing in the way of just having it come out the front? As best as I can tell you just put an unnecessary restriction in the thing.

SATURN5

Hehe...

Cool to see another one.. Bob

87Formula4bbl

When I gave him the idea of how to make the outlet, I thought that was what he would do (point it more forward). He said that that was the only way it would fit in there, so I'll take his word for it. I will tell you, its a very tight fit even with that new top piece.

I mounted his intercooler on Saturday, he just needs like two bends to finish the piping.

BTW....did I mention it sounds crazy? It's not as loud as it sounded over the phone, but it definitely is not subtle. Saturn, I can't imagine what two sounds like.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

"Huh… why exactly did you make the outlet on the blower dump out to the side if you were just going to put a 90* bend in it and there is nothing in the way of just having it come out the front? As best as I can tell you just put an unnecessary restriction in the thing."

Well if you tried to fit one under the hood of a thirdgen you would know why i did that. The hood slopes down towards the front and if i put it anywhere else the hood would come nowhere close to shutting. As is, there is about 1/8" hood clearence the output is sloped as much as possible without becoming a restricion. I dont think it is going to be much of a difference either way. But anyhow the blower works perfectly and i should have it completed sometime this week, just waiting on some couplers and the rest of my piping.

rooster433

Very cool guys..

is it ran off a seperate belt?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Neater packaging and slightly less restriction. Probably not that much of a difference, but considering that you’re talking about a blower on the outside of what it will do well, I don’t think that you want to make things any harder on it then it has to be. And yes, I have tried mounting all sorts of stuff under the hood of a 3rd gen. To make it work you would have had to have used a curved section or better yet, to build a “doghouse” over the top of the blower. Connecting the outlet to a flat plate with a section of round tube welded to it is another mistake since you’re blocking part of an already restricted outlet. If you look at the stock outlet on those things you’ll see that they can be ported for more flow, especially around the sound deadening slots, but to take advantage of that you need some sort of chamber on the outlet. Also remember that air will flow through an expanded section in a curve better then it will through a smooth bend.

What pulley ratio are you running on it? Looks like you still have the stock snout pulley on there. Sounds like you guys have noticed the blower whine. My brother’s inlet is plumbed into the heater box area for the filter housing and it sucks air from the cowl vents. Made life exciting during tuning since you’d be sitting in the passenger seat with a laptop on your knees and if you did something to cause a lean backfire it would basically sound like it was going off between your knees. At one point we borrowed a dB meter and found that at chest height in the passenger seat we were getting something in the range of 118-120dB at WOT.

That brings up another thing that you might want to consider. Without something like a cowl hood you’ll be picking up warm air from that area, and through some experimenting (ie, starting with what I think was a 2.5 or 2.75” “power pipe” and upgrading incrementally) that it gained power with both a 3.5 and a 4” inlet pipe. Of course the M90 housing that we were using was extensively ported (and now replaced with an M112 Jag housing )

87Formula4bbl

Thanks for the suggestions 83. I thought you were coming in here to totally knock it at first. Adding suggestions is better than just saying it looks bad/won't work well/etc. He spent a lot of time and hard work into getting it in there, so I think some credit is due on his part. You can't expect NASA-grade engineering (dare I use that ) from normal folks like us trying to retrofit something like that, especially on the first try but I think we made a decent start. His main goal right now is to get it running and there's always room for improvements. As you stated how, through experimenting, you improved your brother's setup, I'm sure that his can be improved as well but for right now he just wants it complete. At least, seperate from the whole setup, the inlet/outlet pieces can be remade or reworked fairly easily to adapt to the existing setup, so we will take that into account when improvements are made.

The pulley is stock for now. We will see what kind of boost it produces and go from there.

Also, he has an SS hood, so it does have a bulge there (no opening at the cowl) but I don't know whether he wants to trim that section out or not.

To answer rooster's question, yes. He had a SuperCoupe crank pulley put on a lathe and removed the rear (main belt) pulley and had the SC pulley then matched to his crank pulley and welded and checked for balance. So it uses the normal 8 rib pulley. Tensioner was also from the SuperCoupe.

MrDude_1

very, very cool.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

That blower rocks. Thats some nice fabrication

Dewey316

Do you have pics of the pully? I have been thinking about doing a poject with eatons. I would love to see the pully solution you mentioned.

87Formula4bbl

I don't have a picture specifically of the pulley itself, this is the best I have right now (needs some paint, I know).

87Formula4bbl

Intercooler...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Donno what to tell you, I say what I mean and mean what I say. If I say you should have done X because of Y, I’m probably wasting my breath because, well, it will work better, and a surprising amount of that is coming from “been there, done that” and other wise from, well, it’s jus the right way to do it. When it comes down to it I’m trying to save you guys time and frustration, take that as you will…



It’s a fine start, my point is that you’re using a small blower on a v8, something designed for and engine roughly 2/3 the size of the engine you have it on. You’ll have to get it closer to optimized to have some real fun with it, and I’ve seen similar setups slowly fade away because people would not take the time to get it right and just decided that “this won’t work.”



Although I have a stock set of pulleys around _somewhere_ I don’t remember the size, so some idea of pulley ratio (ratio of top to drive pulley diameters) would be nice. Remember, you’re using setup designed to move a little over 200hp worth of air (blower and pulley ratio) on an engine that makes close to that NA. Without some tweaking you’re likely to end up with something that makes a lot of noise but little if any boost.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

"Although I have a stock set of pulleys around _somewhere_ I don’t remember the size, so some idea of pulley ratio (ratio of top to drive pulley diameters) would be nice. Remember, you’re using setup designed to move a little over 200hp worth of air (blower and pulley ratio) on an engine that makes close to that NA. Without some tweaking you’re likely to end up with something that makes a lot of noise but little if any boost."

i remember right the bottom crank pulley is about 7.5" top to bottom and the SC pulley is about 3" or 3.25 heck i cant remember. ill have to measure them tomorrow. But anyways, id imagine id see some boost as is, im not looking to get more than 5-6 intercooled psi by the time im done. I know i wont see anymore out of it than that. Im gonna try to redesign the inlet and outlet later, but for now i just want to see where im at.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

here is a design of the outlet that my brother made, Im thinkin this would flow much better? Just trying to get some ideas to increase flow and fit under that darn hood at the same time!

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

opps...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh… I don’t know if you could see it, but check out this picture:


Similar idea but made by bending a football shaped piece of aluminum around some 3” tube and then tig welding it all together.

For the life of me I don’t know why you couldn’t turn that assembly about 70* towards the front… shaped correctly it should clear the hood and flow better. Nothing says that if you have a square flange your outlet has to face one of the sides. I think that Saturn5 has some early pics of his setup with something like that on it (not at an angle, but a small, compact box.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

huh… I don’t think that the crank pulley is that big, but assuming that it is, you’ll be moving enough air to feed about 300hp at 4500rpm. FWIW, it can be turned MUCH faster then that.

Don’t undersell those little blowers, that setup in the picture puts over 10psi to the 306 which makes enough power to push a 4 door LTD to 120mph in the ¼ mile…

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

The crank pulley is about 7.5 and the SC pulley is 3". Im not sure if that is stock but my brother said its smaller than the one on his GTP. I did make a new outlet which is much improved, i shortened the pipe to the intercooler and got rid of the 90* elbow. The outlet is very similar to this...

Dewey316

Well, there may be another eaton powered f-car coming down the pipes.

I just got 2 eatons + crank pulliey, for $150.

I have a 327 with forged crank that will be getting some low compresion pistons. We will see where this goes....

I'm going to be taking detailed notes on your build-up... you might eventualy get PMs and such with questions. Keep up the good work!!!!!

SATURN5

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ht=twin+eatons

Lots of pics here..

Once I get the SVO up and running, finally will have time to work on the truck.. which now has all the gear from the Malibu.

87Formula4bbl

Ahhh....the thread destroyed by therckid.....HA

Ya, I've had that thread bookmarked for a long time now!

Dewey316

Saturn.

I've read your threads over and over and over.

I'm likely a quite a ways from this, as I still have to build the motor, and I pretty sure the T5 will need to be replaced too.

Then of course there is dealing with a computer system, and picking an induction type.

In the end, physicly fitting them, and plumbing it, is the easy part.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

"In the end, physicly fitting them, and plumbing it, is the easy part."


Its not real easy and it is very time consuming, alot more than i thought when i first planned this out lol but id encourage you to do it, it would be well worth it!

update: i have all the pipes routed to and from the intercooler and the new outlet box is made. The box looks similar to that in the pic about but has air deflectors in the corners to help guide the air into the 3" pipe welded into the box. I think this will work much better, just waiting on 3 couplers to get here to finish her up!

Dewey316

I was of course speaking relative to the rest of the hurdles I get to overcome. Knowing my shortcomings, getting it physicly attached is one thing. Getting it running is another.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

SVO, who let you have an SVO

Truck… thunder? Funny thing, my brother’s car is getting an M112 and I’m thinking about rigging something to use the M90 on my K1500 blazer…

Huh… I think the brackets and plumbing took a bit of planning on my brother’s car, but actually cutting them out and the basic setup took one night, and then add about an hour to get it welded (had to take it to someone that could weld heavy aluminum, if it was strictly up to me I’d do it out of steel, would take much longer to cut but I could weld it myself), and probably another night to get it installed, if that. The real work was the tuning/engine management, working the kinks out, getting the charge tubing to stay on it…

SATURN5

I got a new job, but it's 25 miles each way and driving the Astro every day just plain sucks on many fronts.

So I picked up a mostly original SVO that had run into a ditch and buggered the front clip.

It came with a new SVO fender (and bunch of other good stuff) and I can repair the nose, but the core support is trash and the right strut mount was pushed in a little over an inch. I picked up a 10 ton porta power and squared up the strut mount and I bought a 90 front clip to replace all the inner sheet metal forward of the strut mounts. Just need to get that done. Then it needs some valve seals, which may lead to a ranger roller install, I've got a ported E6 and later intake, two sets of brown tops, subframe connectors.. other than that it's got a decent paint job with... yuck mystic flames. New tires, great interior other than the dash pad. Oh.. and swap a 749 for management.

Yeah.. Dave W's ol Thunder is gutted in the garage.. The MN12 rear is done, and the Aerostar front crossmember is tacked in place, need to fab up the upper A-arm mounst and slid the Malibu bits in. I've got the moter mocked up, sitting back and low. Then it's a quick black primer job and explaing that noise under the hood. lol Bob

18inchboyds

holy hell , is that a sc from a gtp or bonne , and how does that box work , this is totally new and awesome to me , this is the ifrst time ive seen anything like this.

87Formula4bbl

Hehe. No, its from a Thunderbird SuperCoupe. Same difference though. The Pontiac version is a little different but basically the same thing.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

a few new pics...

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

2

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

and the hood shuts

Cruzin Kaz

Great work!! Look well done. Now we need to see some before and after times.

Now when it comes to people saying these bloweres are to small as they were on a V6. Not being smart here either, but I have seen many people take the turbos from GN's and get very good results, and they are made for a V6 and not a V8. Same principal if you ask me??

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Heh, that’s starting to look kinda trick… did you paint the blower?

87Formula4bbl

Ya, he just sprayed it with some heat paint and it looks pretty good. Can only tell it was painted over the original factory (powder coat?) by looking pretty closely. He has to touch up the pulley though, got some silver on it.

Question, does anyone know why the 'lid' on the MAF sensor might start popping out from a a little pressurization? I would think they would be ok under some boost. His started coming out.

We ran it a little bit last night. It seemed to quiet way down after a while, dont know if it just needed ran some or what, or maybe just from warming up. Who knows. We'll see if its loud when we start it up next time and if it quiets down again. It sounded good when it quieted down...

First startup, it ran ok then idled down then started surging reallly bad, almost stalling then reving up, continuously, so we shut if off and found that the bypass valve vacuum line had come off ( I didn't have any small enough vacuum connectors to get a tight connection) but after we fixed that, it started up and ran alright. Surged a little bit at idle but after running for about 10 minutes it seemed to idle about right and under slow rpm acceleration (trying not to put too much load on it until it can adjust some) it runs pretty smooth at all rpm ranges. After a bit more, it would accelerate in rpms decently, a little hiccuping but not bad. I'm afraid to run it even somewhat hard without hooking up with datalogging equipment to see how it's running. He's gonna order a boost gauge so we can get that hooked up and see where we stand also.

I'm thinking of doing something different with the bypass valve, it looks tacky as is but it does work.

sleepybu

LP uses the m90 on it's 5.3 chevy truck blower kits that have ran as good as 12.90s weighing 4200lbs

18inchboyds

what is that box ? how does it work the box i mean , this has got me thinkin , this is pretty neat .

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

"what is that box ? how does it work the box i mean , this has got me thinkin , this is pretty neat ."

Im not real sure what box you are referring to? lol

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

Well i hooked up the boost/vacuum guage today and under load it read about -1 to -2 at 2,000 to 2,200 RPMs. I havent got a chance to get it out of the garage yet so i just spun the tires a tad to see what it would read. Why am i not making any boost at all? would i see more if i drove it and got the rpms up to 3,000 to 5,000 RPMs? tonite im checking for leaks and re-sealing everything to make sure, i know i still need a smaller pulley but i figured id see a little boost?

rooster433

You know you won't be able to make much if any boost without the engine being under a load.

Take it for a ride and nail it

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

1- you weren’t clear, did you actually move it or did you just rev it or run it on jack stands or something? You realize that you won’t see any boost when the engine is not under load, right?
2- I’ve hinted at least half a dozen ways that the stock pulleys won’t be enough to make much/any boost on that engine and even asked you (without much of a response) for enough info about your setup to tell you what you do need for pulleys. One more time… with the stock pulleys the blower will be turning the same rpm as it was on the stock engine, and moving the same amount of air. The stock setup moves enough air to make about 210hp@4500rpm. Most of the performance versions of the 305 are good for 190 to 225hp at roughly the same rpm, which pretty much means that they move the same amount of air as that blower is moving without a blower. If the 305 was making 225 hp and the blower is only moving enough air for 210hp then the blower would actually end up a restriction.

1badrocZ

iTrader: (1)

"1- you weren’t clear, did you actually move it or did you just rev it or run it on jack stands or something? You realize that you won’t see any boost when the engine is not under load, right?"

i did a quick powerbrake just to see where i was, it read -1 to 0 on my last try at about 2,000 rpms after resealing and tightening everything. i do realize i wont see any boost without load.


"2- I’ve hinted at least half a dozen ways that the stock pulleys won’t be enough to make much/any boost on that engine and even asked you (without much of a response) for enough info about your setup to tell you what you do need for pulleys."

It has the stock pulley on which is 3.135" and the crank pulley is about 7.65". I realize i need a smaller pulley as posted above, i was thinkig about a 2.8", that would move the SC to around 15,000 RPMs i believe.