lakeffect2

within the past week, I installed my 400sbc TPI'd with EBL on a 7730 ECM which was rebuilt due to crank slopping around. It was running but poorly before.

It was not started before it was taken to the transmission shop, where it also needed to be rebuilt as the pump was gone.

So I'm now trying to start up a fresh rebuilt engine from scratch. with little luck, and I need help sorting it out.

stabbed the distributor in roughly, got it to fire by adding more advance, but not long enough to see where the base timing is. I have the IAC set to 143, but have not reset it yet. Added a turn or so,on the idle set screw to keep it running.

When it actually gets running , when put into gear it immediately stalls out. I'm lucky if it actually restarts at all.

It's supposed to be at a Wagon car show forty miles away in two days. (Wagonfest - I am the sponsor. It would be nice to have my own vehicle at the show that I sponsor!)

Whether you are a big dog or little dog (or one of the forum gods) your comments and suggestions are appreciated.

MrWillys

Answer these questions and I'll build a bin for you. Injector number and fuel pressure without vacuum applied is very important.
#1. Cubic displacement IE: 305, 350, 355, 383, 406, etc.
#2. Transmission type: Automatic, or manual.
#3. Compression ratio and cylinder head type.
#4. Cam specifications: Duration & lift @ .050 & Lobe separation angle (LSA)
#5. Injector size: Brand & number preferred.
#6. Fuel rail number IE: 1708XXXX, or if using an adjustable pressure regulator? What is the desired pressure at idle with vacuum disconnected. I will recommend if asked.
#7. Vehicle Anti Theft System (VATS): Enable / Disable
#8. Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR): Enable / Disable
#9 Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS): Enable / Disable.
#10 Charcoal Canister Purge (CCP): Enable / Disable.
#11 Air injector Reactor (Smog Pump): Enable / Disable.
#12. Cooling fan(s) settings: 160, 180, or 195. I recommend using at least a 180 thermostat for TPI.
#13 Knock sensor: High compression, and high lift cams can create chatter that will be picked up by the sensor. Knock sensor may need to be disabled in certain combinations.
#14. Speed limiter: Default is 255 mph / or specify desired speed.
#15. RPM limiter: Default is 10,000 RPM / I recommend limiting it to 800 rpm over peak horsepower expected.

lakeffect2

TPI system, EdeLbrock Wide mouth manifold, SLP Siamesed runners, 1.6:1 rockers, headers, wide band and narrow band available to 7730 ECM with Dynamic EFI "EBL P4" daughterboard"



1) 400 that's .030 over = 406

2) Automatic 700r4/4l60

3) 10.3:1 using AFR 195 heads

4)Comp Cams XFI series 230/236 LAS is listed as 113*

5) injectors Accel 32lb/hr

6) TPI system GM fuel rail, with aftermarket Fuel regulator at 46lbs

7) Disable VATS

8)EGR removed

9) VVSS active and calibrated at 4406 PPM

10) Canister enabled

11) AIR gone years ago

12 cooling fans Drop 10* from stock settings as 400's are notorious about overheating even with correct head gaskets.

13 Knock sensor changed out a few years ago , very little knock noted in past

14. Speed limiter: It will never see anything over 130 in it's lifetime on the best of days.

15) 400 tend to be bottom end engines. cut off at 6500 will be well past it's horsepower and torque prime.

I'm using the EBL system. using EBL P4 XDF

Private Email address forwarded to you in a PM in moments from now

Dave Buchholz

MrWillys

Is it a 4l60 or 700? If it's a 4l60 I need tire size and rear gear. What temp thermostat?

lakeffect2

1993 700r4 was rebadged i as a 4l60 but did not get the 4L60E designation till 1994. So for all practical purposes it is a 700r4.

For the record rear gears are 3:

Can't find how to PM anybody on this site, Not what I'm used to on other forum.

More spam won't kill me.

My direct email is : lakeffect@gmail.com

lakeffect2

I should point out That I set the TPS voltage at 0.54 volts per spec. I have not yet set the IAC per the manual or posted instructions here on the forum. Will reset that in the morning when I go to the car.

The brakes also seemed spongy, soft pedal for what little running around in a tight circle i did. I was thinking vacuum leak which would cause Idle, stall and braking issues, but with the E-Bake hung up. it's hard to tell which cause it's from.

MrWillys

First, I know nothing about the EBL or using a wide band o2 in conjunction with $8D. I do know that this will run the car and should be datalogged and further refined for your specific application. You failed to tell me what temp thermostat so it's set for a 180.


right click and choose save target as.


http://scotthansen.net/lakeffect2sburn.bin


Also, TPS voltage for speed density is not as important as mass air. the 7730 reads voltage upon startup and uses that as base. As long as it is between .4 to .9 you're fine. IAC counts should be within 20 to 80 at a fully warmed idle with 40 to 60 being best.

lakeffect2

Unfortunately, the bin opens in a corrupted form. Tables for fuel and spark look like pin cushions.

22.35 0.00 79.78 43.002.
75.00 21.0 45.74 0.00

Thank you for you effort, but apparently this will not open correctly with the ADX file used for the EBL.
Please don't let this stop you from trying to help others in the future.


Best regards, Dave Buchholz

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Dave. post up the bin you're using, or send it to me on Turbo Buick.

MrWillys

Lakeffect, I just reloaded it up as well as sent it to your email. I just switched my domain and webhosting back to a US company so it concerns me that the file is corrupt?

MrWillys

To read a bin in TunerPro RT you need the XDF. You can download it from here. http://scotthansen.net/data2


Also, I was able to download it and read it just fine so I know it's not corrupt.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL P4 Flash ECM doesn't run $8D. It has it's own firmware, documentation, and XDF file.

RBob.

lakeffect2

Well, to make it simple , it is seemingly random numbers all over the place. I have plenty of files using the tunerpro software that are opening just fine. Additionally, I Think you might be at a misunderstanding of my areas of question. as I already have base files with all the changes you've asked fo, and already based on the EBL P4 3005 bin.

I headed back to the tranny shop this morning with a bin that added more crank fuel pulsewidth. Starting ws 50/50 compared to 1/100 yesterday. Once started , it has a bit of a rough idle, givrn the suspicion of a vacuum leak given that there doesn't seem like there is much power brake there.

The BIG issue when you drop it in gear, it's like slamming into a wall.
My guess with this updated info is that they screwed up the rebuild big time, or possibly the converter from Monster is defective with the" lock up" on full lock at all times.

We've agreed to throw another Monster converter in it on my dime, and if that is the problem, I owe them for the extra time and new converter. It is still a problem at that point, they have to ull the tranny again on their di and make it right.

Street lethal, here is the current bin file that I'm working with attached below. The xdf file does seem to be one of those forms of files that can be attached here. It was the XDF P4 2005 from the Rob's Dynamic EFI site.

MrWillys

I did not know this and that's too bad.

MrWillys

Open mine with a $6E XDF and mirror my tables & constants.

lakeffect2

With all due respect and once again my thanks, as I've tried to explain, It won't do any good to to use a GM $6E mask when I am using a totally different daughter board piggy packed onto the 7730 ECM. As RBob has stated, he uses it own proprietary firmware (board) and software, and it really is phenomenal.

I will continue to make use of that system, but once again thank you for your interest, and sincere desire to help.

RBob and street lethal are two of the biggest dogs (or "gods" to my dyslexic friends) on this forum.

MrWillys

Understood, would it compare to the $8D?

lakeffect2

In most users opinion, I would anticipate they would resoundingly say yes, but better
It's more specific to our moddiing needs. It can handle big cam and Turbos where GM's original problem had no intent to do so.
Some descriptiond differ from one to the other. I used $8D before, and find this a little easier to work with. Don't get me wrong, Prtogramming is not an easy thing to do well, but robs stuff helps get a handle on it better.

RBob is a modest guy who isn't one to actively plug his own stuff, so I'll pass along the Website and you can form your own opinion of what it's all about..

http://www.dynamicefi.com

( RBob.. Free feel to send money)

MrWillys

My mistake, and I did not realize you were dealing with a proprietary system. Hopefully someone will be able to assist you in your tune. I will leave you with this. At idle you will need to add between 2 to 4 degrees timing total. I don't know the initial with you system but with stock TPI it is 6 plus the table. Make your WOT throttle 36 with a 3 1/2" crank and then tune the VE based on the histogram using TunerPro BLM averages.
I don't know why anyone would go from mass air to speed density under 500 hp but to each his own. Good luck to you and I hope you understand and figure out your tune.

lakeffect2

It was never mass air. A 1993 Caprice wagon started from the factory with a 350 center throttle body using Speed Density. It was replaced with a TPI'd 400 hundred block that is listed in my signature for the past several years
. It is a grunt motor for a heavy car, But I've never been happy with my own tuning.

Thanks for the idle info as well.

MrWillys

This is what I created for you.

lakeffect2

Since the car is stuck in the tranny shop, this will give me time to hand key the data in my files. Thank you for your hard work and diligence.

Once The car is returned I'll load it and see what we have. won't likely happen for a week though. I host Wagonfest in Geneva NY , and it's this weekend. (with no wagon for the host)

MrWillys

Do you have an ADX file with a Histogram for TunerPro? If not see here and build one.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...xcel-tool.html


Log the car and replay the file using the Histogram to observe BLM averages. At first you may make a global flowrate adjustment. For example, let's say your BLM averages are running in the high 130's to low 140's? Take 128 / 140 = 0.9142857 x 32 (lbs your current flowrate) = 29.2 for your new flowrate. If it is rich it would be the same calculation.


Now with the BLM's closer to 128 (I'm assuming the EBL is like $8D with BLM ranges from 108 to 160 as shown in the constants?) You can make a nice long log with the car. Choose a cell in the VE tables and take that average / 128 and multiply by the current VE in the corresponding cell to arrive at the new VE. I tune to 124 if it's below 124 and I use 128 if the average is above.


Speed density systems are very sensitive and all custom builds should be logged and tuned in this manner. With your cam it will change with the season. I would do a Summer / Spring Fall / and Winter if you drive the car then.


Your WOT should be tuned to 12 to 12.5 AFR. Some tune to 13:1 but I believe that to be a dangerous game and better to stay on the safe side.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

I can shoot you over my latest bin (Running S_AUJP) on my 406.
Cam and setup are close enough that the table values could be interpolated to you EBL possibly.
If you have the previous file I sent you, it will be close to that with not too many changes IIRC.
LMK,
Jp

TCC should not be able to lockup if your foot is on the brake, electrically interconnected to release power.
Or should be anyway.

MrWillys

I don't use TunerPro to edit bins. I use Tunercat as it is more user friendy. Just open them both side by side. The spark map is probably the most important. I'm sure the ADX for the EBL is not the same.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sorry for the late response Dave, I just nabbed it and will look at it now.

Will shoot you an email once finished...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Timing and fueling is slightly off. The fuel pressure was said to be 46-lbs, did you measure this with the vacuum connected or disconnected because the flow rate might be a little skewed by a few pounds. Your RPM targets are high, both at 900-RPM in Park and Drive, and the IAC settings are playing tug of war with each other is some areas. It is in fact possible the torque converter is causing your stalling when placed into gear, but we need to rule out the tune first. The VE itself doesn't seem to be the culprit, but lets fix those other areas first, as well as confirm your spark reference with your base timing as it is set to 8* BTDC. I'd like to bump it up to 10* with those cam specs, as well as increase your Idle State closer to 24* to match the Main Table because like the IAC, it too is playing tug of war and more than likely causing surging...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah that cam will be fine at 800 rpm idle but setting high for now til it runs is fine. I would target 50 or so rpm lower in drive than park/neutral

Base 10-15 deg est disconnected

26-28 deg idle areas 700-900 rpm 60's kpa area

35-36 deg in cruise areas above 1200 rpm with afr 195's.

Once all thats set the base bin ve table should be close enough to fire it. If anything add 5% to ve table as a base

I did a 383 with similar heads cam on ebl and thats basically all i did and it was running well enough

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Actually, it matches $8D about 95%. The important items match the $8D ALDL stream, with the other 5% being flags for items such as the fan and AIR system (that don't match).

This is for the EBL P4 (in use here) and the EBL SFI-6 systems. The EBL Flash system uses the $61 ALDL stream.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I made a new bin from scratch Dave and I sent it to you in email. I had to assume that you confirmed fuel pressure with the vacuum line off, so from 43.5-psi to 46-psi, it is only a 1-lb bump in fuel injector size, so your injector flow rate is now 33-lbs/Hr in this bin as opposed to 32-lbs. If however you measured fuel pressure with the vacuum line on when it read 46-psi, just go into Tuner Pro and change the Injector Flow Rate from 33-lbs to 35-lbs. Your Initial timing is now set to 10* BTDC so make sure your set your base timing to that number by hand with the EST disconnected...

Your Idle SA is now 24* and I reworked the SA Main Table to match exactly that in your idle RPM range so it won't wander off. Your RPM settings are now 900-RPM in Park, and 800-RPM in Drive. RBob had brought up a good point to me a few minutes ago, be sure your EBL-P4 is updated with the latest updated firmware from the Dynamic EFI website. This is absolutely mandatory before using the bin that I sent you. The instructions for this process (if indeed it wasn't done yet) are on the website, it only takes a few minutes to do...

- Rob

lakeffect2

Ok, NOW I have better handle on what is really going on, and this is the wrong section of the forum for th answer.

. The problem of stalling when put into gear seems to be that the TCC is always locked up. I can get the engine to start, run and idle reasonably well. The only way the car will move is to rev it and slam it into gear. Once moving , if you come to a light, it will shudder until it stalls. It feels like driving a manual transmission and forgetting to put in the clutch when coming to a stop. Classic symptoms of a locked converter. Of course the shop that rebuilt it denies that it is their fault, that they did anything wrong.

Dave

MrWillys

By theory if you remove power it should unlock? If not then something is wrong inside.

lakeffect2

Something was indeed wrong in side, and with friends who I thought could be trusted. Gear sets and parts that I paid for 10 years ago were not installed. (that have been in my signature for ten years)

Parts and mods that I never wanted or asked for were done instead. So much for honor between friends. What he did was steal my money by not putting my 5 gear planetaries in, and modifies the tranny by eliminating the lockup portion, and putting in a non lockup convertor..

Guess what happened when you buy a lockup convertor thinking the mechanism is there, but was removed without your knowledge. Essentially you have manual transmission without a clutch pedal, and it is directly connected like a dirt track car.

I got a non lockup 2800 stall convertor, and know it acts appropriately.

lakeffect2

I bumped this to the top after explaining the true cause with editing

lakeffect2

Literally a year later, after being in early storage all winter, I am back on the project. It is once again coming out of the transmission shop due to someone there forgetting to hook up the kickdown cable. My transmission fried within fifty miles of getting it out of storage.

Early signs indicate startup issues are still there this season this season. I found something unexpected.

Last summer I had replaced the fuel regulator. The metal bottom of the regulator diaphragm had somewhat of a 45* conical beveled edge on the seat. I could not keep fuel from leaking past the regulator. I had clamped off the return line to check leakage from either a hung up injector or the check ball in the pump. Pressure held, but once the clamp was removed pressure dropped off within a few seconds. So it was getting past the regulator easily.

I took the regulator apart, grabbed that diaphragm, and went to the local parts store. They had two different regulators in stock, neither of which had a conical seat. They both had flat seats.

After installing one, and a pressure check, the pressure no longer dropped off when the clamp was removed. So it seems the difference in the seats had a major bearing on fuel getting past the regulator.

Thought you guys would like to know there is more than one type of seat out there. So the proble is partially solved. I don't need starting fluid as often, but still need it half the time.

(note to STREET LETHAL, if you still have that bin that you altered for me, can you be so kind to resend it to my email direct to: lakeffect@gmail.com