Bahamutzeroflar

Im slowly building a Turbo setup acquiring last of parts now. I searched threads and numerous boards. I understand a single T3/T4 is way to small for a V8 and it would choke the engine. What I was planning on doing since I have a dual out muffler was to use one side and rear mount the turbo on one side. I am searching for a GT-35 etc. and run a large single..but thats for a build down the road. I figure I'd start small. and work the bugs out before going head first. Opinions and thoughts.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Even a 35R is too small for a single on a V8...

T/Aperformance

I do not think you would really want to mount a turbo after your muffler really if you are thinking of a rear mount set up,you will need all the exhaust pressure you can get and with after the muffler you will be loosing that and what you are thinking by only using one side of the dual outlet muffler your exhaust pressure would flow to the side with out the turbo, I would ditch the muffler all together, If you till want the dual exhaust look then I would put a Y pipe off the turbo and exit the exhaust out the back.

project89

iTrader: (1)

not in a rear mount configuration it isnt

a 35r will move enough air for 650 hp.
turbine sizing would be key on my 3.5L dodge intrepid i have a gt3582 with a t3 .4x housing and it works good. if it was a 3582r id roll with a .63 housing.

he didnt mention if it was a 5.0 or 5.7L engine but id start with a t3 .8x housing or a t4 .5x

the 35r is basically what comes in the sts kit they use a t61 or 60mm which is basically the same size compressor wheel


i belive zz3astro was the one who ran a single t3/60mm turbo on his tpi engine u could ask him what size his turbine housing was and go slightly smaller then what he ran since his was mounted on real turbo headers

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Unless something magical changes with a rear mount, and engine airflow, yes it is too small.

A 35R uses an 82mm Exducer wheel and the T61 which is at the very very very bottom of what you should be using on a V8 setup uses a 90MM exducer.


At a low pressure ratio where the V8 is going to be the 35R is TERRIBLE, even compared to a T61

1.25 PR 35 Lb/min

1.5 PR 45 Lb/min

Compared to the T61, which again is on the smallest side of what you would want on a V8 setup

1.25 PR 40 lb/min

1.5 PR 55 lb/min


Your dodge intrepids V6 has nothing to do with sizing a turbo properly here.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the 35r is still sufficient for a rmt on a v8

Bahamutzeroflar

Thats for the replies all! how about running a twin t3/T4 setup would that reduce some of the backpressure? similar to a STS system?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

No, it is not, the airflow at the pressure levels on a V8 will be insufficient.

Which part of this do you not understand.


From garrett : The Choke Line is the right hand boundary of the compressor map. For Garrett maps, the choke line is typically defined by the point where the efficiency drops below 58%. In addition to the rapid drop of compressor efficiency past this point, the turbo speed will also be approaching or exceeding the allowable limit. If your actual or predicted operation is beyond this limit, a larger compressor is necessary.

A 305 is going to eat up the whopping 35 lbs/min that one will put out, at 1.25 PR, which will only be 4 psi, at 5500 rpm, done.

*edit* not to mention this is only going to be about 350 CRANK HP

at 1.5, and only 7 psi, again 5500 RPM, it doesnt have the airflow at the pressure it will be at, end of story, it will be into the choke line anywhere above 5500 RPM at those boost pressures.

*edit* again here this will only be about 400 CRANK HP

2.0 (15 psi) things start to get a bit more acceptable and hits the choke line at 6100, but at any rate its pretty easy to see that sizing something right into the choke line the entire time is terrible, apparently you say its sufficient, Garrett however says its too small.

Now we're barely getting somewhere power wise, and worth bothering to put it on, 600 crank hp, fully tapped out, thats pretty terrible on the turbo sizing, especially being that you're all in hot air zone.

Peak HP capability of a turbo is just that, its only a small piece of sizing a turbocharger for an engine, apparently this concept is new to you.

All the way across the board a 35R would be all in the choke line.

A 350 even worse:

1.5 PR (7 psi), choke line at 5300 RPM

1.75 PR (11 Psi) choke at 5500 RPM

2.0 PR (15 Psi) choke line, 5200 RPM


Starting to understand your "sufficient" is far from "sufficient" ?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Why are you so against mounting things up front where they are supposed to be.

Two 60mm exducer turbos will be about the minimum you want to use, ideally, something like twin GT3071's or GT076's will be awesome.

Twin 3071's will flow enough to be efficient even on low boost down in the 5 psi range, and make good power there, as well as be efficient up around 20 ish PSI, and capable of around 800 HP there.

Bahamutzeroflar

[quote=Z28ricer;5442007]Why are you so against mounting things up front where they are supposed to be.]


1. I'm not. 2. I don't have an endless supply of money. Or show me a bolt in kit specifically for a Third gen that doesnt need any mods and has proper turbo sizing no questions asked. They make a kit for Fox body stangs none for ours....I've been looking for a while. Ive read nightmares about the ebay header kits about the #8 plug and cracking welds..

http://www.jegs.com/p/On-3-Performan...42264/10002/-1

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=Bahamutzeroflar;5442058]Edguardo apparently still makes his manifold, the ebay stuff is a ripoff of his original design, get one of his manifolds, and get yourself a Master Power T70 or so.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[QUOTE=Bahamutzeroflar;5442058]I don't see why you wouldn't just buy the ebay parts and modify them as needed. This is thirdgen.org, not Corvetteforum. Grind & weld, not write a check & drive.

-- Joe

Bahamutzeroflar

I agree

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=anesthes;5442259]Yes indeed, lets keep supporting theives ripping off other peoples hard work and effort.

Ignoring the fact that it wouldnt be available if someone didnt put forth the effort to do it, only to be ripped off, you've definetly got the right mentality here.


But at the same time, I want to watch you try to "modify as needed" a manifold made from materials far too thin, you got some magic dipping process to thicken the thinwall tubing, into thick wall pipe ?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

So wait, you complain about a complete kit not being available, yet you want to push the idea that buying the knockoff of stuff made properly is the way to go ?

Yep, keep holding your breath for more properly designed stuff to be available.

34blazer

are you still talking?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[QUOTE=Z28ricer;5442775]How are they thieves? If you seriously think the BBS headers are some new design that hasn't been floating around since you were in diapers you are crazy. The Chinese did the same thing he did. I've got an old turbo book with pictures of turbo headers dating back to the 1950s that look just like the BBS headers.

The wall thickness usually is not the problem, it's the lack of understanding the leverage involved with having the turbo way on the end of the manifold without a brace or support. Actually, most guys I know have more problems ripping the threads out of the aluminum heads than they do with the header cracking, although both is valid concern without a brace.

Everyone and their grandmother has a turbo in this part of the country using the Chinese parts. I don't know why all of a sudden guys on thirdgen have a problem with these "cheap junk parts".

If you want to talk about cheap and flimsy garbage, how about the bracket for my procharger? By lightly pushing it with my index finger I can make it walk back and forth almost 3/4 of an inch.. But I guess since that was designed and built by a couple of white guys it's ok??

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Sums up our foreign policy pretty darn good...

As for the turbo headers, who really cares where he gets them from. Capitalism is heavily based on free enterprise, which brings forth an abundance of competition from all over the globe. If the Chinese can get away with providing something cheaper for the average American citizen, then perhaps American distributors should either lower their prices, or do a better job voting for better politicians to handle tariffs properly. Until then, "xie xie"...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=anesthes;5442960]Yes it is a stolen "design" they bought one, made jigs and duplicated it exactly, someone else (edguardo in this case) put all of the time and effort into making something to fit, someone else bought one, sent it over there and had it duplicated, you really dont see that as stealing ? We have copyright rules to prevent this on numerous things, patents, etc yet they are all ignored by having copys made in china, since its not happening here and "just" being sold here, its supposed to be OK ?

[QUOTE=anesthes;5442960]
Yes, the reason they crack IS the material, they copied HIS design, but didnt follow the same build quality, so they crack, nobodys having problems with manifolds from him, and seriously, threads in the head ? You've got to be kidding me, there are countless vehicles with aluminum threads, and no magical supports holding things up, not pulling threads, sounds more like installer error, which is no surprise after being willing to buy stolen designs.


[QUOTE=anesthes;5442960]People have had issue with these stolen design, poorly copied parts since theyve come out, from every car manufacturer group around, its just the people who are honest and not happy with poor quality parts made cheaper by stealing other peoples R&D time.

I guess if someone pops up with your supercharger for sale after taking it, I should be just fine with buying it, because i'll get it cheaper than buying a new one, right ?

[QUOTE=anesthes;5442960]You seem to be set on advocating the theft of other peoples R&D and engineering, someone elses design flaw does not make up for other "companys" and i'm using that term loosely, stealing anothers time, effort, and money.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Have you ever really seen or looked into where Honeywell manufactures some of there parts??? Just saying...

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Were did I specifically say that the issue at hand is specifically where the parts are made ?

The issue isnt specifically with WHERE parts are made, there are good things manufactured everywhere, the issue is when someone takes a part someone else designed, tested, and perfected, then ships it over to whomever is offering to duplicate it the cheapest, by whatever means necessary, cheaper lower quality materials, loose tolerances, wrong materials, etc.


If honeywell spends x amount of their budget each year on R&D, and Y is their revenue from new turbos sold, the new garretts are manufactured at 245 sweetnsoursauce street in china, to exacting tolerances, with the correct materials, and joe schmoe talks to the dudes over at 247 sweetnsoursauce who say they can make the "same thing" for 1/4 the money, and starts selling copys of them, how well do you think honeywells R&D is going to continue to be funded ? How much R&D and true engineering are the guys at 247 going to do ? (none)

Whether you can see it, or acknowledge it, its stealing, you are just out to see whatever you can get your hands on the cheapest, in reality it is no different than buying someone elses stolen property from a thief, justify it however you want.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You got me to laugh... Thanks. I needed that after working on honeywells garbage all day at work.

Honeywell makes more then just turbos. Thats about less then 1% of there market so I think they'll be just fine. "it is what it is" So what is complaining about it going to do.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I appologize as I though you were against "cheep chineese stuff". I miss read that. But the fact remains that theres nothing any of us can do about some companys stealing others R+D from another. Its the way that manufacturing has been for many many years. It does seem like its getting worse. But to be honest I have a godspeed turbo and theres no way I would pay for a real garrett turbo. For one my cars not fast enought to justifly it let alone I dont know enought about them yet. So why ruin a 800 dollar turbo when I have one for a fraction of the price that does the same thing.

Now for the turbo sizing. What HP is he looking for. What Rpms is his midrange, and peak area? Is it for racing or street driving?

The other thing that comes to mind is that if hes on a budget then the RMT might not be the best way just because of the initial cost of that scavenger pump.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

HP, "midrange rpm" ?? and "peak area" ?

Where are you coming up with this stuff ?

Must be along the same lines as mr "35R will be sufficient" <-- Yeah, RIGHT.


If response is the majority of what you're trying to aim at with most of your statement, thats going to be in the a/r of the exhaust housing, for the most part anyway. And the majority of what's needed to properly size a turbo has very little to do with the actual MAX HP of the turbocharger itself.

Unless he has goals that extend beyond 800HP, I can say with certainty that a pair of GT3071's, or something else similarly sized will be very good, and at the bottom end of things, something like twin 60mm (exducer, not inducer) T3's, would be great both budget wise, and power wise.

34blazer

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

You seem to have a problem with people posting actual facts, does it hurt your feelings when people are more knowledgeable than you ?

34blazer

seems youre the only one with hurt feelings whining about buying parts made overseas.


so,

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

So, where have you provided ANY sort of technical input in here.

Were you providing any sort of useful information to the OP's question ?

Cant see where you were...

Some sort of useful information about anything to do with turbochargers and sizing them ?

Hmm I cant seem to find that either.


Only you whining for a thread lock, because you're upset about a conversation that was over your head, and because you were unable to be useful.


And before you open your mouth again, about "whining about parts made overseas" it would seem you cannot read, as already stated, the issue is with knockoff crap being stolen poorly copied junk, it is relevant to the OP's thread, because he himself was whining about parts availability and the lack thereof, the lack thereof being a result of the knockoff junk you favor so much.

34blazer

every thread you stick your nose in turns into a pissing match, since you know everything. maybe you should sit down and shut your mouth, whiner

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

[QUOTE=Z28ricer;5443247]
You are making a lot of accusations but have not offered any proof.

I didn't realize edguardo had a patent on his headers. They look like everyone elses.

I don't you why you brought my supercharger into the discussion, I didn't make it, procharger did, and they ripped off another existing design.

If you wanted to talk about something I designed, than you should have cited something like my transparent SSL interception and cert signing system. But since I released it GPL so others could use it in their own products, I guess it really doesn't fit your argument.

Anyway. Back to the original topic. If there actually was one. Ahh forget it, I'm locking this.

-- Joe