CanuckCrossFire

Hey guys, I'm in desperate need of power. I have a 20 year old motor and 20 year old technology. My setup is a Cross-Fire injected 305 and I was hoping somebody out there is also running cross fire and laying down some good times at the track. If there's anybody out there that knows how to make a crossfire setup haul a$$ lemme know...I need to keep up to or blow by 350's and start spanking those darn rustangs.

RB83L69

There's not a whole lot you can do.... think of what you have as being exactly the same thing as a Citation, just twice as much of it. That's why it runs like ..... a Citation.

A set of good quality chassis-specific headers, such as SLP or at least Edelbrocj TES, for some other car besides a CFI one, and a cat and cat-back to match would be good. I'd suggest getting all the stuff for a later-model single-cat 350 TPI car. You'll have to swap it all at once, because all of the better stuff is larger, and won't fit to your dinky Y-pipe. Anything that fits any piece of your existing stuff will preserve the bottleneck, so make sure it's incompatible with the LU5.

After that, a better cam without going overboard; and larger valves in the heads and a port job.

Some people are using the later model TBI ECM with those. After all, it's no different from that point of view, than any other TBI system. Turbo City sells PROMs for that combo but they're not cheap. At least they're tunable though.

You're going to have a real tough time making that thing beat anything, especially a bigger motor or a newer car, or even a well-set-up carbed 305. But at least by spending enough cubic $$$$ in the right places you can lessen the embarrassment.

CamaroX84

I'm going to be 100% honest with you here....don't even bother wasting money on performance for that motor. The induction system is pretty much garbage. Sure what RB said will help, but for the money you would spend doing all of it you're not going to be happy. If I were you, I would save up and ditch that system all together and throw a carb on there, or if you're more serious you can do a rebuild or get a crate motor. But hey, this is all my worthless opinion and it's your car and your money, so try to do what you'll be happy with. Good luck!!

Tom84L69

Have you guys ever seen the ports on a CFI intake? they are puny and I'm sure a bit of power can come from port matching and hogging out the intake/heads. Of course it IS still a crossfire.

mrr23

now that we've got the waste of time people out of the way (except RB83L69), here's what we have done with an '83 305CFI camaro.

all stock 16.88

added edelbrock 6872 headers, catco 3" cat, flowmaster 3" catback, accell coil, cap, rotor, wires, and plugs 15.75

ported the intake manifold (what was GM thinking on this one), installed 2100rpm torque converter 15.40

next up is world products 305 torquer heads, comp cam 268 extreme energy, 1.6 roller tips looking for high 13's when we are done.

here's links to his pages.
http://www.technovelocity.com/chevyhackers/
http://fl-thirdgen.org/chevyhacker.html

also there is a crossfire forum so you don't get the crossfire bashing you do here. http://www.crossfire.homeip.net/

Tom84L69

Hey who's the waste of time here? you souped up a cross fire!!!

25THRSS

Do you actually have a point?

Tom84L69

25...
I think my point was clear. Have you ever even seen a crossfire unbolted? I just didn't like mrr23's comment about waste of time. That's a load of crap...if someone asks a question that I can provide input on, i reply. why are you even here saying anything? do you have crossfire info? please inform us 25.

25THRSS

You make no sense. First you say there would be a lot to gain from porting the cfi intake then you say it's a waste of time. Obviously modding a cfi isn't a waste of time because they come with such restricted parts. CFI can perform just like any other form on fuel delivery when modded, so ofcourse it's not a waste of time. It's all in what you plan on getting out of the engine. If you want 700 hp then CFI wouldn't be the way to go and either would tpi. If you want something reasonable like around 250-300 hp then yes, CFI can support that easily. And yes I have seen the innards of a crossfire. As you stated previously before you decided it would be a wate of time, there is a lot to be gained by modding the cfi. Just because it might be a little down on hp from the factory compared to other forms of fuel delivery doesnt mean it's not worth it to mod. All that means is there is more to gain from modifications.

Tom84L69

your point of posting was because you saw an easy target for an argument. your advice about crossfire is worthless, and your rebuttal to me is weak. I said it was a waste of time because it is, that doesn't mean there is nothing to be gained, there is something to be gained on any motor out there (any moron knows this, even the uninformed like yourself).
Please try to restrict your posts on the tech board to helping people with technical problems, not trying to sound smart.

25THRSS

My point in posting was because you said it was a waste of time to mod a CFI. I disagree. I feel that there is a lot to be gained from mods on this engine and form of injection. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with "trying to sound smart." As a couple others have said, you can gain quite a bit just from bolt ons. The stock exhaust is pitiful and so is the factory intake. With minor porting, full exhaust and gears you will really wake up the cfi. You are the uninformed one. You fall into the "it's not as fast stock so it must be crap" kind of person. This is fairly common with people such as yourself, but it is ok. You might learn something from this post. CFI is worth modding. Don't throw it out the door. Mod it and see what you can get. I will bet you will be very pleased, especially compared to the lackluster stock performance. As I said before, it can support descent hp very well, but if your plans are to have a full on drag car making *** awful amounts of power then I would suggest going to another form of fuel delivery. Just as you said, "there is something to be gained on any motor," CFI is no exception.

Tom84L69

Coming from someone with an LS1,,I am not sure how to take this. I have a 305 that i built in spite of everyone saying it's a waste of time. I still say the crossfire is a waste of time, why not just go carb? If it had so much potential, why did GM shelve it for TPI? I previously said that crossfire can be improved upon, is that not what you just paraphrased? Again, you are simply looking for an argument.

To Canuck, there is not a lot of aftermarket suppport for crossfire and it is a compromised system to begin with. While you can make power with crossfire and it may not be a waste of time (according to our 18 yr old LS1 friend), a simple 4 bbl carb will make better power for less money.

CamaroX84

Just for backup on my comment on this message. I simply stated my opinion in the fact that crossfire is crap. If money was not an issue, then sure you could hop up a crossfire to make it run half way decent down the track. 99% of the people on this board are on a budget, however. Dollar for dollar, a carb setup will put you down the track faster against a crossfire, hands down. I also stated, however, that he should do whatever he wants with his own money. If you want to make your crossfire faster, all the power to ya. But if you want to go even faster for the same amount of money (if not less), throw a carb on there. eBay has tons of carb stuff if you're interested. Just be careful when buying on there, and know what to look for. Again, this is simply all my opinion and I'm just giving some input into the matter.

25THRSS

Yes I am 19, and yes I happen to have an LS1 with 500+ hp, but what does that have to do at all with this post? I have built the engine with my bare hands, blood, and sweat. Just because I have an LS1 which does happen to be very fast from the factory, doesn't mean I don't understand that just because other cars may be slower stock they can't beat me. That is the fun with cars. I enjoy taking something that might not be very fast and turning it into a rocket. I believe CFI is underrated and has gotten a bad wrap, as has tbi, because it happened to be slower stock than tpi or the HO carb motor. That doesn't mean at all that you can't make it fast. You are correct, there isn't much of an aftermarket for CFI, but it is still a sbc and there are plenty of parts for that engine obviously. It's up to the owner. You decide on what you feel is the best route to go. If this is a daily driver then I myself would stick with CFI. My advice would be to check out the links that mr22 posted and see what those guys are doing to make their cfi's faster. Chances are you might decide you actually kinda like it and want to keep it.

chevyhacker

"Dollar for dollar, a carb setup will put you down the track faster against a crossfire, hands down."

If he didn't already own a crossfire car and motor - I would agree with this statement.

However, if you put a great carb (would need to buy manifold, carb, brackets, throttle cable, etc) on a 305 with 1.72 heads, a wimpy cam, and an amazingly restrictive exhaust system, you still are going to get #s that reflect other bottlenecks.

The only mod to my crossfire system to date is porting the manifold - which is a low cost mod (sure, if you don't have the tools, it can cost you money to have it ported). The rest of my mods would have come whether I had a carb or crossfire - headers, exhaust, ignition, and soon heads & cam.

Again, i'm not saying crossfire is better than any other induction system - I'm trying to point out that any motor is a complete system, and you need to look at all the parts before you decide that one part is the bottleneck.

Tom84L69

Nitromethane126

Carb Swap:

Carb - HLY-0-4777C - $325.95
Carb intake manifold - EDL-7101 - $129.95
Non-computer controlled distributor - ACC-9107 - $138.95
A carb fuel pump and in tank pickup - HLY-12-801-1 - $95.95
A set of intake manifold gaskets - FPP-1205 - $13.95
A throttle return spring and bracket - MRG-19 - $7.95
Throttle Cable & Kick Down Cable Bracket - MRG-6039 - $17.39
Holley Kickdown Cable Stud - HLY-20-40 - $4.99
Assorted nuts/bolts, brass fittings, hose clamps, etc - $30

TOTAL: $765.08

I know Chevyhacker personally n no way in hell did he spend $765.08 on his intake manifold porting! lol Now lets see what all we can do with $765 shall we? Well the CFI heads have 1.72 valves so those have GOTTA go!

World S/R Torquer 305 Heads - WRL-042650-1 - $545.00 Assembled
.015" Thick Head Gasket (Bring up compression some) - FPP-1094 - $39.90
Fel-Pro Head Bolt Set (From AutoZone) - ES72856 - $24.98

TOTAL: 609.88

And look! There's $155.20 left to go towards your cam swap

Carb's make "cheap" power - BUT, when you already have a perfectly good induction system sitting right there on your motor - why would you go straight to carb? I would do all the other things that "you would do if you had a carb" - see what it does, then when you're done with that, and you're not happy bragging about your 13 second crossfire, either spend $500 bucks on nitrous, since you now have the heads cam and exhaust to support it, or spend $765.08 on a carb setup.

MelloYello

Just go to the Techical Articles section and read the carb conversion. When you drop in a 350 you can reuse your carb setup (you might be dissapointed with a crossfire on a 350). Go carb, get an exhaust, shed excess weight and spray a 75 wet shot. You'll be in the 13s and way ahead in the $$$ department.

Just remember, anyone who is afraid to use nitrous on a stock motor is either a pansy or a commie

doug791

Love the thought process there. I agree completly if your idea of a good time is melting your pistons into your engine block. Hey while were at it why dont we put twin turbos with 20 pounds boost each on a stock engine with a 200 shot thatd be an interesting 1/4 mile....

MelloYello

Hmmm...even with a progressive nitrous controller to keep the added cylinder pressure of the nitrous consistent throughout the RPM range, I am fairly certain your suggested combo would exceed the generally accepted 300 BMEP limit and fail :nono:

As far as melting pistons into said block, that is a highly unlikely scenario - and usually from abusing the system through prolonged continuous use. The 75 hp level I suggested will be completely fine on Canucks 305.

Personally, I have run 30lbs of nitrous on the 150hp level through my stock heads/bottom end without any problems , and know plenty of others who have done so as well.

Canuck, do a search on the power adder boards for more info on nitrous. Also, before you take anyones advice, ask yourself if they are talking from experience, or just from some ill conceived, uneducated notion.

Here's a thread that gets into the dynamics of Nitrous Injection where I explain how it affects cylinder pressure:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=187630

Peace
Kyle

mrr23

well in that case the CCC, TBI, TPI, and the LT1 are crap as well. all because of the LS1. hey let's go back in time and put a carb on it. carbs are a thing of the past. i can get the same or better performance out of a FI system. and get better fuel economy to boot. no tempermental carb to adjust because of weather changes.

everything that we've done on this CFI can be used on any other type of set up. the only thing we've "wasted" money on was the porting of the intake. which by the way tom you gave at least some type of positive statement until you said "Of course it IS still a crossfire."

well you can port a stock TPI base and the runners to get more out of it, but after all it's still a TPI!!still limited to the 5000 rpm wall. if you really lok at a CFI intake, the runner ports are the same as a TPI. just the exit side they made 2/3 size. this weas to try and achieve some sort of port velocity. that idea was tossed after 3 years.

for the work done, most of which would be used on all other engine configurations, we have gained 1.4 secs. this on a 305 non the less. so again stay negative about a CFI (or anything without a carb), and continue to be useless to the conversation. or do something with your life and make helpful comments.

stay tuned for the next episode of the crossfire is right. next up high 13's. and because of this type of posting, i will make it happen. on a 305 nontheless.

MelloYello

Nope, just the Crossfire. TBI has plenty of aftermarket support, TPI has Replacement intakes and can support cars well into the 9s, there are plenty of LT1 guys running 10s n/a with a nearly stock intake.

There's nothing like doing something out of spite, eh? After all, Ferruccio Lamborghini decided to build his own cars out of spite towards Enzo Ferarri. Good Luck beating those pesky Citations.

zippy

i would recomend contacting turbo city if keeping the cross fire is a must.

MelloYello

Could you post the URL for Turbocity

RB83L69

This is going to be real tough, so you better be ready to copy & paste....


www.turbocity.com

Morley

Have the manifold extrude honed and a good set of heads put on the car. My exp with CFI is that when it works, it works good, when it doesn't work, it sux. If you know how to set it up yourself and do all the adjustments, then you are a good step ahead. If you don't, then you may want to look around for someone who does and is willing to teach you.
Like anything, it is what you make of it (within reason)

Nitromethane126

This is exactly why I wish I was around in the good ol' days when hotrodding was more than typing in www.SummitRacing.com and ordering something somebody else has made! Where is your sense of adventure? One reason I do like carbs, is because the people with carb motors ACTUALLY ****IN DO SOMETHIN to their cars! I'm also getting so bored of the LS1 crowd, 9/10 LS1's are bolting crap onto their cars to make up for the factory's stupidity, 1/100 LS1 hotrodders actually touch their heads or cam. The LS1's are almost like GM are trying to support the aftermarket industry by bottlenecking the crap outta the motor so other companies can open it up.

Crossfire is a perfectly good system - you're spraying fuel into the engine, and you have a plenum and runners to direct airflow into the (albeit tiny valved) cylinder heads. The trick is to actually use your noodle (lol always wanted to use that in a sentence) n do some inventive fabrication to make a custom crossfire manifold of sorts, I'm not gonna divulge any information about the ideas that mrr23/chevyhacker and I have discussed - but I commend anyone willing to take the worlds most hatest fuel injection system on the F-Body's most hated V8 motor (305) and turn it into a car that'll run with the LS1 boys.

Most people have never even seen a crossfire injection system, until I met chevyhacker I hadnt seen one myself either, I just assumed it sucked because thats what I was told - I always jokingly told him to convert to carb, but I'm really starting to get into this whole 13 second crossfire deal, so I help out every opportunity I get.

What I notice alot, is that people argue the point of crossfire's uselessness simply for the sake of debate, they have no real opinion or experience with it, they just don't like being wrong, their pride gets in the way. I'm willing to bet that the negative folks in this thread are only replying so people who actually give a damn such as myself mrr23 and chevyhacker will type out long explanations such as this trying to prove our point - funny how the only response we're getting back has no actual information backing it up - using the smiley is hardly a response.

Hell the only reason I hate TPI is because its a bitch to work with, but 392ft lbs of rear wheel torque (518 on spray) in my daily driver.... 'nuff said.

BadSS

I know a guy that's having good luck with a ported stock CFI on a 355. The intake has been extensively ported and it's off about .4 seconds of what it should be doing with a 750 carb,,, but the engine is strong enough that it at least appears to be making a good showing.

He's thinking about this intake. It's hard to tell how good or bad the transition from the added to the stock plenum area is by the photos on the website - and I haven't actually seen one. But if you want to be different and run the CFI type system,,, it appears something like this could get a lot more out of what ever heads or engine you plan on running. It's probably over kill for a 305 with stock heads, but it's something to think about.

http://www.x-ram.com/intro.htm

2.73's Suck

build the cross-fire!!! that would be so awsome to show the tpi, lt1 and ls1 guys your taillights and say yup, thats cross-fire. all hail the skinny puppy that one day comes back to bite the abuser(s)!!

MelloYello

ronterry

I made this, & posted it over three years ago, and I've been waiting to post again

Ron

83 Z28 HO

No hope for a 305 Crossfire. Strip it for parts, and buy a 350.

83 Z28 HO

LOL nice pic rofl :hail:

ronterry

You liked that one, well....I've posted this one so many times...but here you go...I had a thing I made for it a while go, but it was something to do with the aftermath of my X-Fire after it saw the flow number from a new set of heads...it just push him over the limit

Ron

RB83L69

I don't think so!!! Spoken like someone who has never actually turned a CFI intake upside down and looked at the ports.

I still remember the day in late 1981 when my late little brother was working at Racing Head Service, and somebody brought in a 82 CFI Z28 and wanted a cam & carb & intake swap on it. We took off that CFI, and laughed a good long hard laugh at those teeny tiny little port, just barely 2/3 as tall as the head ports, and about 15" long each.

I wish somebody here would post a closeup of the runner-to-head transition. One pic is worth 1000 words sometimes.

Yes, it's pretty much an evolutionary dead-end. But if the owner wants to keep it, and just work with it to the extent that it supports it, that's fine. There's some room for improvement. Be realistic though. You're not taking a CFI motor and running with LS1s with it. That's just pure wet-dream fantasy land.... that you're going to mod a 220 HP motor into a 400 HP one, with a computer you can't tune, on an intake system that will only flow 260 or 275 HP no matter how much "hogging out" you do to it. You can definitely make it better than it came, with very careful tuning maybe even get it to hang with a stock TPI car of equal engine size (not a particularly lofty goal at all for a carbed car), but even that's stretching it.

Of course, if you take that intake off and put something else on there, then it's ..... something else. It's not CFI any more. Then it becomes a different ball game, and it's a question of what a formerly CFI motor can become now that it's not CFI any more.

25THRSS

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.technovelocity.com/chevyh...rt_polish.html

RB83L69

Thanks!!!!

3rd pic down on the left..... that one about says it all.

25THRSS

Exactly, now look at the pic on the right. Looks lot better than stock don't you think?

RB83L69

How far down into the port did they go? Or to ask it another way, what did they do about the whole rest of the runner that's about the same size as those stock outlets, all the rest of their length?

Tom 400 CFI

RB, the port isn't that small the whole length. The runner's crossection shrinks considerably right near the head, so significant gains can be made, with very little grinding, and ZERO dollars in mods!! LOL

This thread is so chock full of miss informed, my-brothers-sister's-CFI-car..., ignorant talk, it's absurd! RB, you of all people should know better. To the original poster: Listen to the people who actually own one, AND know what they're doing!

The CFI is NOT the best induction system! But it is fine, and for virtually no money, you can make the thing rock and roll.

No "Stock" hp? They were underrated at the same hp as all the other TBI junk on this board.

Costly to mod? Yea, i't BIG bucks to port an aluminum intake

Can't support big power? Look at my combo and results! And I get 25 mpg on the highway. WITH A 400!! Let's see that w/a carb.

Cheaper to "just slap on a carb"? No way. You can get a CFI 305 into the low 14's with less than $500 bucks. And almost all of the $500 would go into COMMON F-bod PARTS....the headers and exhaust. Then porting, then tuning. Low 14's. Would headers, exhaust, AND a carb & intake get you low 14's? You bet, but it would cost another SEVERAL hundred dollars, as out lined above by "Nitromethane126". On what planet is that cheaper??

No "growth" potential? All I have to say is, if you want to go above 320 horse, get and Offenhouser Crossram intake. You'll NEVER use up all the potential that thing will give you, and it's about 1/4 the price of a "TPI" replacement that will get you in the same ball park. As a matter of fact, that intake is cheaper than a Holley 4 bbl and a Performer RPM intake.

To the original poster:
Headers
exhaust -> '86 and newer TPI or HO parts as RB correctly mentioned
Timing
Fuel pressure
160T-stat
Electric fan -> '90 Ford Taurus junk yard unit works GREAT

These simple mods should put you right in the high 14's -low 15's with good driving. The same mods, combined w/a T-5 netted me a 14.5 @ 95 about 12 years ago.

If you continue and spend $50.00 on intake gaskets, thoroughly port the intake, and loose the useless "distribution vanes" under the throttle bodies, that should show you another 1/2 second. After that, you'll need to get into the heads, cam, etc. But you'll already be beating many cars by then. Basically with the exhaust, porting, "free mods" above, you should be at about 250 hp.

Interesting...about the same place you'd be at the same place you would be with the same set-up, (headers, exhaust, stock long block, free mods) but w'a carb. But you didn't have to BUY a carb and intake!! lol.

See 1/4 mi in sig, and note the that's with a TIRED, oil burning, 7.8:1, stock smog-headed Junkyard 400. Imagine a fresh version, AFR 190 heads, and a $270 Offy Intake? Yikes!

mrr23

all you have to do is ask chevyhacker or me. he did the inside area. i did the ports. just at the end they are 2/3 size. completely opened it up. went all the way through the ports and did some minor enlarging. chevyhacker removed the ERG port on the inside. once completed the car went from 15.75 to 15.40.
here's a comparison. 1983 305 CFI/auto = 16.88 stock. 1992 305 TBI/auto = 17.4 stock.

i don't particularly care for the design. but it can be made to work. and we have done so. if you look closely, it is the predecessor to the TPI. same runner design. just different way they got air to them.

but that's ok. you guys keep disbelieving. this 305 CFI will go into the high 13's. but, if you want real help and answers go to www.fl-thirdgen.org or http://www.crossfire.homeip.net/ as i said before anyone that comes here with a crossfire will get bashed. plain and simple. for those that have answered his questions, many thanks. for those that have done nothing but bash, like i said in my first post "waste of timers."

Damon

There is a website dedicated to the lowly CFI setup. i don't know the URL becuase it got blown away in my "Favorites" when I switched to a new computer. They had some pretty stout CFI Vettes there (ran 12s) and could probably help you out.

They were basically trying to sell a higher performance CFI intake but there's still lots of good info on the site, as I recall, and I'm sure they would help you out if they thought you were interested in selling you a new intake.

The main problem: finding someone who can burn a custom chip to match a modified engine. No point in building a heavy-breather if the chip ain't up to feeding it correctly.

mrr23

i just posted the crossfire injection vault in my above repsonse.

Tom84L69

the flag was for THRSSS, not anything related to crossfire, someone snuck a post in between.


mrr23, if you like to tinker, more power to you, but why start off building a good motor with a restrictive intake manifold? Unless you made your own manifold.

mrr23

because there is power to be made with the stock one. once the "corrections" are made. but yes we have a "custom" manifold on the drawing board. but we will see just how far the "corrected" stock manifold will take us.

25THRSS

Hold on, what the hell was bs about what I said. Nothing I said was any different than what these guys are saying and they proved my point.

mrr23

you know i was thinking the same thing. but he might be refering to your remarks about have built your own motors. but i'm not him. so i'm only guessing.

25THRSS

OK, well if thats the case then I can gladly post pics of start to finish of my disassembled LS1. I'll even take of few pics with a piece of paper that says something like bs this, ha. or some crap like that. I'm not a liar and I don't appreciate being called one either and if someone wants to call me on it then I can gladly prove them wrong. My point wasn't to brag at all, I was simply saying that just because I have an LS1 doesn't mean I think I am unbeatable. I wouldn't even be suprised if I got beat by a CFI one day because it is not a bad form of fuel delivery. By the way, I didnt't even bring it up, someone else did and I even said it had nothing to do with this post.

Tom84L69

Well I guess i was just mad. What really angered me was mrr23's post calling us "the waste of time people." I guess I missinterpreted "waste of time" as calling us a waste of time. Now, a few days later and after re-reading, I see that he meant "waste of time" in terms of what we thought of CFI. I guess that's why having an actual conversation with spoken words is superior to this

What I said in my first post was valid, it's a compromised system to start with and it is easier to go faster using a carb or a well designed FI system. I still say it's a compromised system to start with, but good luck making yours fast.

mrr23

yes, i actually meant the people coming into the post saying it's crap and scrap it. there's nothing you can do with it. after 'wasting our time' posting their crap, we can get to the actual answers. as i said before you had a good post up until you said "Of course it IS still a crossfire."

now you could've been just poking at the CFI. but hey look at the TPI. after all the mods you do to it, it's still a TPI. with it's same limitations. up until holley came out with the stealth ram, there wasn't a real cost effective way around the 4800 rpm wall. now there is. there is a guy that makes an intake for the CFI called the x-ram. it's been posted in this thread. right now chevyhacker, nitromethane126, and i have another design on the drawing board that will out do it (my opinion). one day we'll make it. but untill then we'll see just how far the 'corrected' CFI intake will take us.