vsixtoy

A final test fit of the bolt-ons to check fitments and to verfify color coding (what other parts I want ceramic coated silver) before everything get torn down for the build.

This is going to be a fun project. I love the looks of this little motor.

camaro_junkie

3.5L V6RSR? What engine is this? That looks like your custom 2.8 plenum.

kretos

3.4 bored out i believe, good luck with that build should turn out quite nice

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Can you get a pic of the under side of your engine and a side view?
I got to keep that oil in it's place.
I was going to put a windage tray and bafels in my pan, but like allways I don't have an engine to model it to.

vsixtoy

And you want to try this from referencing pictures? Why not just wait till you do pick up a motor so you can measure exact. You've got K-member issues to worry about also.

It is starting life as a '94 Camaro 3.4 60*V6, but that is changing internally completely.

cali92RS

Looks pretty damn slick Dean...

(You and your obsession with V6's)

redraif

Can't wait to see what it will do... Plenum is interesting... Got any info post already about it?

kretos

theres a thread here somewhere, can't seem to find it when i search though

redraif

I think I must have searched for the wrong thing. Only bad thing about search, you have to use the same words as someone else. Did they use plenum or intake?...that sort of thing!

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

The reason you may not find anything is because that he posted it under his old name, AGood2.8.

Here is the thread. https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=201972

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

i was wondering if dean was still around, hes the only other person that got the headers from pf&e, sweet engine man good luck, id like to see how the intake works, maybe you can produce some for us

camaro_junkie

I believe it was posted under "custom plenium" instead of "custom plenum"... that makes the search a little harder.

Jerriko 3.4

Just out of curiousity, what does the RSR stand for?

TechSmurf

fixed

vsixtoy

You have a set also I thought. These are the only ones Greg made in stainless steel +he ceramicoated them for me at my request (that was very nice of him to take care of that for me so I did not have to reship them out somewhere else). That is also the FDP 62mm TB and yes my custom made "plenium" (Yes I mispelled plenum when I posted that).
These headers are beautiful. It is actually the first chance I have had to fit them on a motor and I have owned them for just over a year now- Great work Greg (PF&E).

Agood2.8/ Afrikingoodtime

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

yeah im the other one that bought a pair.....they still have the stainless finish on them though becuse i dont want them to stick out...im going for the stealth look i have to say so far ive had no problems with them and they give a nice hiss sound when i accelerate and im sure they helped my dyno numbers a bunch.

still curious though if your ever gonna market that intake or just keep it for yourself lol

vsixtoy

Its mine own label to my car and motor. Kindof like how GM dubs the ZZ4 and the 350Ramjet and the LS1, etc etc.... My version of a 60*V6 that I think will become well known through these boards. History of modifications to the rest of my car I think shows I mean business when I speak of doing something. It just takes time in life to takle all the projects I face. My house is always first. My custom brake project has been a year in creating and playing the waiting game for the custom machined parts to show up at my doorstep before I go to the next phase. That is 1 full day away from being finished and installed. One side is 100% complete and the other is about 80% together. Have to paint and do some minor fitting drilling and safty wiring then its ready for install over the Xmas holiday. Those are 13x1.25 rotors, lightweight alum hubs, and 6 piston radial mount calipers all under a 16" IROC rim.

redraif

I got the first set he produced. In stainless as well, no ceramic. Sporting the prototype y-pipe as well. No EGR on mine! Good quality stuff! Could not have asked for better looking professional quality headers! My only issue is that I think they might be a bit small for the engine (3.4L). The dyno numbers did not produce a jump like expected on the 3.4...

Pre headers:
Max Power = 121.5 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 145.8hp @ the fly wheel
Max Torque = 208.2 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 249.84ft-lbs @ the fly wheel

After headers:
Max Power = 125.9 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 151.08hp @ the fly wheel
Max Torque = 203.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 243.72ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
(Up by 4hp, but down by 5.1ftlbs TQ!)

Once the cut out was opened:
Max Power = 134.1 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 160.92hp @ the fly wheel
Max Torque = 207.4 @ rear wheels (+20%) = 248.88ft-lbs @ the fly wheel
I got 8.2 additional HP and got back 4.3ft-lbs TQ.

But there is all kind of issues when the car is not tuned properly, so its hard to really say. If we turbo it like planned, it will be just right though.

I would love to hear what other dyno pulls have produced!

redraif

I for one can't wait to see it going!

Jerriko 3.4

I dynoed my car six weeks ago. Naturally aspirated I got 149 hp and 190 ft/lbs at the rear wheels. When sprayed with a 100 shot, it got 150 hp and 191 ft/lbs at the rear wheels. In case your wondering, the clutch was slipping pretty bad. On the nitrous run, the engine sounded like I revved it in neutral. The clutch was a spec 3 stage 3.

vsixtoy

I can tell you right off the bat that its not the headers. You need to free upp the entire intake air path all the way to the valves. You are outflowing fine, just not inflowing. Larger intake valves, decreased bends on the head intake ports, and a larger intake profile on the cam and valvetrain will show the results you need. This is where these motors hurt- turbo boost proves this.

FbodTrek

Can't wait to see the final results. I'll still be here in years to come, that's gonna be one crazy little motor

vsixtoy

I can't wait either. But the important part is that my main focus is reliabilty. This motor will be built to run everyday on the street and last for 200,000 miles minimum. I am not building a timebomb and I am in no hurry because the current motor in is a new crate motor 2.8 with only about 37,000 miles on it. It will take me time to build- how long?- I can't tell you if it will be 6 months or 2 years. It depends on what life throws at me. I have a house a wife and daugther, a business to maintain, and four other cars that cost me money also. It will be as quick as money and time will allow. It is the last thing (#4) this car is getting and will be going in after #1) the front brake project, #2) the new complete cooling upgrade/elec WP project, and #3) the complete new top secret other thing on the front suspension

Edit: You might notice the wall of the garage in the background that is prepped and ready for me to "tile" as soon as I finish the complete remodel of the room above the garage and can finish drywalling the garage ceiling. I do much more than you guys know- all by myself. Ked85 (Karl) has witness in person what I am doing to this house- he is in the trade himself and does remodels. He about sh*t when he saw my "tiled" waterheater closet

PS- I am relaxing today- every once in a while the body needs a rest.

Doward

Dean, you bring up a good point. I could not believe the difference a measly 7 psi, on a SMALL turbo made. If the intake side is that restricted, then yes - the intake/heads combo should be quite a difference! (going FWD 3100 Gen III heads + custom intake )

kretos

ah that would make it harder


and i for one can't wait to see how its turns out.

redraif

That is my exact next step. First fuel pump, then moving on to freeing up the intake. Trying to get some pics from AM91Camaro_RS of teh stock plenum cut open. He has some measurements too. Planning on Extrude honing that bad boy to the limit. Hope it will allow enough to make a diff. If not then custom plenum here I come. Though mine has been polished so nice I hate to not use it, plus I love how it looks!

Going to port the heads further. Had alot of people on the Feiro boards say not to take those fins out of the heads. It would mess up the air flow. So I cleaned them up and slicked them. Now we are thinking about making them thinner like a shark fin. See what that does. Also going to mill the heads. Get some flat valves. Get a multiangle valve job (have never done this) and get roller rockers. Then need even stiffer springs...

Then got to work on the larger TB. Darn contact I had is gone. He was working with some guy in Finland. If it had worked occording to plan I would have had the TB last March!. Wish I had the Finland guys info!

Then we will see how the headers do with the cut out. I already know thatnks to the cut out that the darn exhaust sys is too restrictive. Going to go with a 3in cat back sys from someone! Then i will just have to piece in the section to the y-pipe.

Then I'm thinking turbo!

redraif

Its nuts how the cam I got is actually a HP cam, not a troque cam, but its torquey in the 3.4....though we had Reed profile it out for a 2.8. Its so odd that you have 16hp on me and I have 17 on you in TQ.

Though I wonder...mines an auto, yours a stick...what is the drive train loss on a stick.
What do stick guys multiply to get the flywheel numbers?
Autos have a 20% drivetrain loss. I know sticks are less.
Would be interesting to compare our dyno numbers that way!

Gumby

a auto trans is suppose to multiply torque right??? You lose HP turining it but it makes that into torque to still move your butt???

Doward

Ah, not quite. Long story about how slippage of the tq convertor = more torque, but more heat transfered into the auto tranny. It'll build more torque, up to the stall point.

vsixtoy

Redriaf, We do not have the displacement of air coming out of the motor to push it through 3" tubing all the way to the back of the car. You think you have troubles now with the 2 1/2", the 3" will bottle neck the gasses even more when they cool down and slow down. The smaller diameter keeps them hot and keeps them traveling to the rear of the car with better flow. This is why your cutout workd better also. The gases were able to escape out the exhaust sooner and avoid the bottleneck in length. We really need a shorter length catback setup with these samll displacement motors and 2 1/2" dia tubing is the perfect size. It the length that has to be shortened.

This is the very reason why I come out of the muffler with dual 1.75" pipes and not the 2 or 2 1/2" duals everyone else with V6's arte doing.

camaro_junkie

It's too bad that these cars don't really allow us to play around with the exhaust too much, other than pipe diameter.

vsixtoy

Cj,

In trying to find better solutions for these cars (I have designed many different suspension componant ideas for them already) I have even pondered with the idea of trying to tie the exhaust tubing into the use of subframe connectors. Noise, expansion, and heat are problems though.

Dean

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I read somewhere on my old s10 board, that having a muffler thats in 1, and out 2 loses power?

I had debated on if I have to redo my exhaust, try this. Would look a tad funky having one pipe hanging down, but if it works, it works. In side on passenger, on left side it would just dump down and slightly towards the rear.

camaro_junkie

Or you could just leave the duals and block one off. But I do like Dean's idea of having two smaller outs.

redraif

OK the car still has the stock exhaust tubing size. I got the rusted factory exhaust off there years ago, but the muffler shop stuck to the factory sizing. So I have 2.25 in non mandrel bent exhaust. The car is weak as crap with the cut out capped. I run with it open.

The reason I'm debating the exhaust increase is due to what some of the 4th gen 3.4 guys have done.

*We got stock 2.25 inch pipe. (3.1 & 2.8)
*3.4s came stock with 2.5 (what I found on Camaroz28)
*The 3.4 (stock) guys upgrade to the cast off 2.75 exhaust SLP was selling from the cars they upgraded. Thay have great results so I hear. They say the car is stronger.
*So why would a modified 3.4 (to the extent I'm talking with the bore & hone increase) not warent something larger?

That was the logic I was going with. That and the dyno shop was convinced it was the pipe size as well.

vsixtoy

Definately go up to 2 1/2" from the stock 2 1/4". This will give a gain. But you will start to lose again going bigger than 2 1/2". That is the optimum size for these motors. Header pipe diameters prove this. Optimum power is produced from y-pipe merge into 2 1/2" collector. Hooker & hedman duals merge into a 2 1/2" pipe on each side then dump. If you hook those together with a y-pipe they fall on their face. They are designed to run open header. The optimum y-pipe primaries are 2" not 2 1/2". the optimun header primaries is 1 5/8"x 26" long for open race headers and a 2 1/2 collector for under 4000k, but 2 1/4" for over 4000k operation. Shorter and a smaller should be used on a closed exhaust system to maintain the heat needed to push the exhaust out the muffler further away. These are GM test results.

Just understand this one main point. As exhaust gases cool, they slow down. The larger the pipe diameter, the faster they will cool. The smaller the pipe diameter, the more restriction of flow. You need to have the rpoper balance between the two. 2 1/2" is the correct size. Don't listen to what some guys on some board are claiming there 2.75" exhaust did unless they have dyno sheets to prove it- I would bet that its in the head, the car will "sound" faster with a deeper tone.

Gumby

I was just thinking the other night about NASCAR exhaust. How they do to ground clearance make them wide and thin square pipes to fit. as oval or round would drag.

Gumby

Yep the fake duals is more restrictive then real.

Once I fixed all the leaks in my system my car felt weaker in the higher R band. I should of just left it alone but I got exhaust leak fix happy. and then I could not deal with the performance hit.

it really sucked all the life out of the upper band.

That when I ripped out the stock fake dual and went with the single out.

Jerriko 3.4

I think you missed my point. The clutch was slipping during BOTH dyno runs. The most hp I could get through it was 150 hp, regardless if I was spraying or not. But since then, I have fixed the clutch and I know it has a lot more hp and torque output than the dyno numbers reflect.

Vsixtoy, I don't mean to highjack your thread, I am just answering comments.

Doward

I dunno, my 3.1L really likes the mandrel bent 3" I've got on it

Gumby

But you got a turbo D. you have plenty of BP. Actualy your might like it if you ran a progressive pipe. Keep getting bigger n bigger as much as you can. End up with a 5in fart can.

You running a muffler?

camaro_junkie

Don't forget that a diameter increase from 2.5-2.75 actually increases the area by 20%. (This comment is not meant for you Dean, I'm just reinforcing your argument.)

Also, have you thought about insulating the exhaust to retain heat?

AM91Camaro_RS

i have to argue against the 3" being too big. sorry. i am running the old hooker headers, dual 2 1/4s into a single 3". the 3" run from just behind the tranny to the 80 series flowmaster in the back. i have run the car at the track with the full exhaust, just the 3" catback (no muffler), and i have run just open headers. my times basically didn't change with any of these setups. i know it seems wierd but that's what i've experienced. also, i am wanting to ceramic coat my entire exhaust system for insulation purposes.

dean, on your motor, that pic looks awesome! i, too, can't wait to see what you end up with!

camaro_junkie

Any guesses on what to expect from your motor Dean? Or is it just a wait until the install-and-see? I can't quantify the performance of that thing myself, but I can qualitatively say that it's going to rip some serious pavement (especially compared to my car!).

kretos

planning on a turbo?

or na

vsixtoy

It will be N/A and I am shooting for 240-250 FWHP. remember, I also am running an electric WP and a superlight bottom-end rotation assembly with 6" rods.

The internal of the block will look as pretty as this -

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=268722

Pillsbry10

iTrader: (1)

yeah i disagree on the 3" being to big as well...im running PF&E headers into 2 1/4 tubing into a y pipe 3 inch to the muffler and then 2 1/4 back out of the muffler....seems to run very well, looks as though my tq numbers jumped a lot from it

Jerriko 3.4

What difference does the 3" pipe make if it bottlenecks back down to 2 1/4" behind the muffler? I think 3" is too big if the WHOLE exhaust is 3" in diameter, not part of it.

Gumby

There is a good article somewhere [gotta find it]


"You can build a quiet exhaust system that performs almost like open headers."

http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....p/exhaust.html

Jerriko 3.4

Good read, thx.