SS ninja

iTrader: (1)

I was pretty much set on getting a HSR this winter, but now that the price has gone down on the FIRST injection setup, I’m considering that as well.


Here’s what I’m trying to decide:

My motor is the GM 350 HO that is claimed to make 330 HP at 5000 RPM and 380 ft/lbs at 3800 RPMs with a 600 cfm Holley:

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...8&autoview=sku

The motor is currently making peak HP at around 4200 RPMs, and falling flat after that with a stock TPI setup. I'd like to make peak power about 5000 or so, and it seems like both the FIRST and HSR would be able to achieve that goal.

I'd lose a little torque down low with the HSR from what I've read, but I'll have a much better powerband above 3000 or so, and as I'm planning on running a roughly 2400 9.5" stall I wasn't too worried about that "loss", especially since it seems like the car will be easier to launch.

It looks like I'd be able to be out the door with a complete HSR setup for about $700 including misc fittings, extra braided fuel line, etc.


Now this comes along for only $150 or so more, and I'm wondering it if would suit my motor better, as it seems like I'll be able to hit my HP peak at 5000 without the loss of torque down low.

So, what would you guys pick? HSR or FIRST? Is the FIRST setup work the extra money?

navion

BadSS has some good posts comparing the FIRST to the HSR. He has run both. check out this thread:


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/alte...ighlight=badss

SS ninja

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the link! I was actually reading that earlier today and I gave FIRST a call a little while ago...just waiting for a call back from them on a few questions I have.

From what I've read so far it looks like I'll be getting a FIRST setup instead of the HSR, but I figured that it wouldn't hurt to ask for opinions on here as I won't be able to buy anything until I get my paycheck on the 31st.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

The HSR typically shows gains above 4,000rpm over a LTR setup. The First flows a ton better than any other LTR setup out there, but the HSR will still put out more power up top. You won't have the same grunt down low though as a LTR would. Say when you are in overdrive on the highway and just want a little omph for a pass, the LTR setup will feel stronger than a HSR would.

vindeezl

iTrader: (2)

Not worth the extra $$$

HSR

SS ninja

iTrader: (1)

Can you elaborate on this? Why wouldn't it be worth the money?

Hawk92z-TDZ

I have the HSR but am switching the the FIRST, more for the EGR then anything else, but the added mid range will be nice

HSR plus a 52mm TB is basicaly same price as a FIRST which comes with its own TB

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I thought the first didn't have EGR, or any emissions for that matter.

Hawk92z-TDZ

The FIRST has EGR provisions, top of the page
http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm

vindeezl

iTrader: (2)

In the power delivered vs. extra cost

Bottom line is you still have a modified TPI, now with your "wallet mod" complete you are definitely stuck with it.

BadSS

I picked up close to .5 seconds ET with the FIRST compared to a fully ported TPI and hogged out SLPs (as much as you can without cutting and welding),, so I'd say it's a good bit better than the typical "modified TPI",, even though it is a TPI (lol).

Ninja, it sounds like the FIRST would fit better with what you're looking for. The HSR isn't bad at all,,, it makes power a lot like a dual plane carb intake down low and close to a single plane intake up high,, so it is no slouch,, you just don't get the midrange torque boost from the FIRST's long tubed runners. I'd expect you to run similar ETs with either intake,,, you'll just shift the FIRST a lot sooner compared to the HSR,, maybe 5500 vs 6100 with your combination.

CHAMARO

anyone know what the cfm is on the FIRST? or how well it distributes forced induction air and holds boost pressure?

SS ninja

iTrader: (1)

Nice, thanks for the input!

I figured that since my motor wasn't really built to rev above 5500-6000, the FIRST would work well for me.

Plus, I'm a sucker for that LTR look.

I actually ordered it yesterday, and Ken from FIRST told me to expect it in sometime next week.

LMSkyliner

iTrader: (1)

Im kinda getting the vibe that you don't know much about the FIRST system. True, it LOOKS like a TPI intake, but there really are alot of important differences. Go look at the site some time. First off, the FIRST is physically larger in most dimensions, even though it does look like a stock TPI. This system is alot more than just a set of runners and a port. You cannot, with an GM TPI, do what you can do with the FIRST system. It is a strong intake in all categories and, with the GP price he got, was not significantly more expensive. PLUS it gives you alittle bit of stealth. Only the most astute thirdgenner will be able to tell at a glance that there is more to that intake than meets the eye, compared to mroe flashy runner setups which can be identified from 50 feet out.


He made the right choice. For the RPM he wants, the FIRST will give him more than enough breath up high, without the loss of that magic down low torque.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

I was talking with them last week thinking I was going to jump in on the GP but what he told me was the average total flow there getting through the runners and base was around 232 cfm.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

only 232cfm ouch!. glad i went with the HSR, HSR flows sumthing like 275 i think. and its easy to get the midrange tq outa the HSR... u just build a 383

i had a hogged out TPI, ported plenum, portmatched to SLPs, ported base etc.... took it to the track and hated it. cant get it to hook. too much unusable tq in the lower RPM ranges. on the street its fun dont get me wrong but too much of the throttle and my @ss end goes everywhere. the HSR would help by creating the tq higher in the band.

try to go up against a LS1 etc and watch them pull away with the top end they have. do have to say the FIRST is a nice system tho hope it works out well for u.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont know about those flow numbers

First base alone flows 300 and has be documented by members here

What exactly is your motor combo Ninja? From the sound of it, if your looking to peak at 5000 rpm and shift alittle after, the First is far better choice just because it will have more torque than HSR and make same power.

If you were looking to peak at 5500 then I'd go HSR all the way. HSR is VERY strong after 5000 rpm all the way to 6500+

SS ninja

iTrader: (1)

I have the 350 HO "deluxe" crate motor listed in the first post.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You cant go wrong with either setup as both will probly end up making same hp numbers... its just that the TPI setup will make more torque. HSR will have a flatter curve which has its advantages too. 2400 stall speed is a great speed for a street car with that motor.

If you dont plan on upgrading cam/heads for more rpm/power later on, then go FIRST TPI. If you do plan on doing things later on, then go HSR.

Hawk92z-TDZ

lol, I have a 412 under the HSR, oh and it obliterates them little stock LS1's top end and bottom end

I do admit I like my HSR, but there illegal here and the FIRST isnt, so FIRST I go

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

the HSR can be illegal. u just need to by the mini ram EGR kit. BEAT THAT FIRST INTAKE lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Illegal? Like the KGB will throw you in a cell until you talk? Or not emissions compliant?

-- Joe

LMSkyliner

iTrader: (1)

FIRST is legal out of the box. FIRST just "beat that"

305sbc

iTrader: (3)

I sounds like it has already been decided, but for the record my vote is for the FIRST, and +1 to the post above.
I feel a heavy monte with automatic transmission can profit in driving pleasure from the FIRST setup. I do like the HSR too, and obviously it's a close call between the two.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

first looks like it ATE the D@MN box it came in lol like a juiced out TPI and it looks goofy and chubby compared to the TPI/HSR.doest really have the hard lines anymore. hsr is just preeeettttyyyyy! and simple. hey who wants to take out 18bolts to get the runners off lol. and the large monoblade TB looks like a catfish's mouth... end of story

LMSkyliner

iTrader: (1)

Im trying to figure out if you are joking or serious??? I think that the FIRST is a great looking system, especially in color (which you can choose by the way). Maybe it doesn't have QUITE as nice of lines as the stock TPI, but it is definitely more interesting than the boring HSR, and it certainly works alot better than the TPI.

Hawk92z-TDZ

As in during a road side inspections, plates pulled and car towed, unfortunetly the blitz's are bad around here and its $380 per Emisions infraction plus the tow charge and impound fee, not to mension it must be re-certified to be replated.

I still have my AIR, Canister and Cat's, just need the EGR, it never used to be that bad, this just started in the past few years, I guess they ran out of bank robbers and murderers to catch

Hawk92z-TDZ

I actualy plan to dyno both set-ups, so everyone will eventualy know just how bad the HSR beats the FIRST for HP and what one has the better overall powerband

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

lol LMskyliner im just messin. its not to bad... i dont like the lines of the First... it does seem very "bloated to me. but its still not that bad looking... i remember the ones with the TB mounted to the side and it looks like the First was taking over by the grudge girl. lol.

hawk92z-TDZ! do it!!! i would love to see the beatdown. the road inspections are the same in NJ.... they tow the car on the spot and u have to pay the tickey/towing/ and impound. its ridiculous... my solution is to build it fast enough so they dont see me or practice my Kturns at higher speeds to take different routes lol

scamaro355

you all are talking about flow...with the heads this guy is running he'd be lucky if they flowed 210 cfm on the intake side....soo no matter what he goes with its not gonna choke it out...as far as the stealth ram goes...i love mine, but im not sure if id like it on a basically stock engine

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

While that is true, either intake will provide significant gains as the stock TPI is a big restriction in an of itself.

You could also argue that because of the stock head flow on TPI cars that going with headers and a cat-back is a waste as well, however we all know that headers and a catback will give a significant gain on an L98 or LB9.

In a perfect world we'd simply rebuild the entire engine from the ground up in one shot, however we don't live in a perfect world with plentiful wallets so we do it a piece at a time. And either of these intakes will be a significant gain towards future mods.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Well that may be the case with the head flow but the runner length does determine rpm range so even with a crappy flowing head, the HSR may make higher rpm hp over the first and definately give up low rpm power/torque

scamaro355

I was talking about the intake flow not choking out the heads...anything is an improvement over stock. OR89rocz..I was curious if those time were ran at pitts internatonal raceway. Thats the closest track to me, if i could keep a tranny in my car longer than 2 days ill come play....

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

u might lose alil velocity with the larger port first/HSR intakes but then again the vortecs arent a shabby head. they can make 400-430hp pretty easily. over a stock head u can see 50hp even with a stock TPI. i saw a build with stock 87L98 stock cam, hp went from 225 to 305 with a head/vortec high flow base, that power then jumped to 355hp/423tq with edelbrock runners, 52mm TB, and the GM hot cam. (plenum remained unported) and this was with a stock 87 L98 chip. (the vortec heads were modified for larger valves/higher lift by scoggin dickey) so thats why they were able to use the hot cams lift. thats not a shabby TPI motor by any means.

i think the first/HSR would fit nicely on vortec heads flow. and would also allow enough flow for larger heads like 195-215cc.

the 2 intakes will def create different hp/tq curves. i would go with the HSR bc it allows u to launch the car harder due to lower HP/tq in the lower RPM ranges. Thats my biggest prob with my modded TPI is that i cant get the wheels to stick with the TPI tq. and the HSR will allow u to run with the LT1 and LS1 in there powerbands. so u dont get killed at the topend.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep, i'm 15 min from Pittsburgh international raceway

watman02

When you planning on doing this Hawk92z???

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If i felt like it, LMSkyliner was thinking of letting me borrow his First TPI and placing it on my 400 turbo motor. I'll be breaking it in on motor and could do a dyno comparison possibly between HSR and First. Motor is nothing special tho, just a 9 to 1 aluminum head 400 with a mild 233/233 cam. I wouldnt expect this to be a great test for showing the limits of each Intake.

I wont test it on boost tho. Once the turbos are on and plumbed, i'm not changing a thing

Hawk92z-TDZ

i dunno, its winter here right now, brrrrrrrr

I have both intakes here, HSR is still on the car , but my 6-speed is a 5-speed right now, 4th gear is missing, and thats what I need for the dyno so I gotta get that fixed first.

Basicaly dont hold your breath, prolly wont have both dyno'd and posted till later in the year, I was hoping to grab the Mini Ram to add to the comparisons since I need it for my 421ci build anyway's, but the times are slow so I am thinking of hold back abit on that.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I couldn't use the first. No distributor cover. Just seems like it was forgotten. Seems kinda ghetto. I know some of you don't care, and that's cool. ...but for such a little amount of extra work, you'd think they coulda done it for us "appearance also" guys. Heck you can paint or polish it??????