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Do i need a capacitor?

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Old 02-20-2008, 07:06 PM
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Do i need a capacitor?

OK, so i bought a new 150 amp alternator about 8 months ago because me old one stopped working... then 2 months ago the new alternator stops working( wont charge the battery when rpms are below 1500). I bring it back to the shop i bought it from and they repair it for free. NOW about a week ago the alternator has broken again!

My guess is that there is too much power being pulled from the battery and the alternator is being forced to stay on... but I the only mods i have to my electrical system is a 900 watt amp for my stereo. I wouldnt think that 900 watts would ruin an alternator like that but i guess so? Or maybe its not just the amp thats doing the alternator harm.

What should i do?
should i add a 1 farad capacitor to my amp?

Thanks for your help, -Austin
Old 02-21-2008, 12:20 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

In my experience of thirdgen audio....900 watts shouldnt be gving you trouble at all. A capacitor in most cases will take MOST of the stress away from your battery and alt. Your case is really strange. Im not an electrical kinda guy....Can any body else chime in?
----------
btw....im running 900 watts just for bass and 500 watts just for the 4x6's and 6x9's and 4 extra kenwood tweeters. no power trouble so far

Last edited by 1991ON20's; 02-21-2008 at 12:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Old 02-21-2008, 07:28 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

A cap is just going to put more strain on your electrical system. You need to find out what the real problem is and get that fixed.

Is that 900 watts max, or RMS?

Tell us about your system.

Do you have anything else running off your electrical system, besides the audio?
Old 02-21-2008, 12:14 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

i only have 300 watts goin to the front 2 speakers, 300 watts goin to the rear speakers, and 300 watts goin to an 8" tube sub. Those is max wattage. I had my car hooked up to a computer at an electrical shop to figure out what was pullin the power and all they came up with was "the alternator plug connection is loose" so i had them replace that plug... that was about 4 months ago. And im obviously still having problems...
Old 02-21-2008, 02:59 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Max ratings really don't mean anything, without knowing your equipment I'm going to guess you might have about 300-400watts total.

Which a stock alt could handle just fine, so you have something else going on there.

Who is the manufacture of your alt? Is it one that a local shop rebuilt to produce a higher amperage?

What is the idle rating on the alt?
Old 02-21-2008, 04:24 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

I use to have the same problem. Went through few alternators. On hot summer nights, with a/c going, lights and fog lights on and stereo blasting, all the lights including dash, would dim. I thought I was gonna have to start carrying an extra alternator in the car.

My capacitor helps to drive my woofers only. Originally I also got a 200 amp Power Master alternator which ended up being defective. When I sent it back they asked if I wanted to go ahead a make it a 400 amp alternator at no extra charge. I said yes. Eversince, I've never had an issue again.


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...es-woofers.jpg
Old 02-21-2008, 04:30 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

just thougt of something else, do you have underdrive pulley? I had those too and with all the above power being used, my car was surging. Think about it, all the accessories are electric, fuel pump, a/c, lights, etc...sounds like maybe your are drawing to many amps and the diode is burning out.
Old 02-21-2008, 05:46 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

The Amp that i have is a Delco Remy and has the number 65 on the back of it. The electric shop that i bought it from said that it was a 135amp alternator but that it was putting out 150 amps. So i guess it might have been one that they had rebuilt? I do not know what the idle rating for it is.

When i drive the car, the interior lights are always at the lowest setting and my a/c is always turned off. I usually don't drive at night. I am usually listening to my radio. So it doesnt seem like i would be using too many amps.

If there was a power draw somewhere in the car, the computer it was hooked up to in the shop should have caught it. But anything is possible.

Do y'all just recommend that i just spend $400 bucks and get a good 200amp alternator? Because it seems like the problem is somewhere else, i just cant find it...
Old 02-21-2008, 06:35 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Originally Posted by Beachmonkey6
The Amp that i have is a Delco Remy and has the number 65 on the back of it. The electric shop that i bought it from said that it was a 135amp alternator but that it was putting out 150 amps. So i guess it might have been one that they had rebuilt? I do not know what the idle rating for it is.

When i drive the car, the interior lights are always at the lowest setting and my a/c is always turned off. I usually don't drive at night. I am usually listening to my radio. So it doesnt seem like i would be using too many amps.

If there was a power draw somewhere in the car, the computer it was hooked up to in the shop should have caught it. But anything is possible.

Do y'all just recommend that i just spend $400 bucks and get a good 200amp alternator? Because it seems like the problem is somewhere else, i just cant find it...
I wouldn't do that until I knew for sure what your current alternator is putting out. Did you see what it was actually putting out or did they just tell you? When I got my Power Master, it came with a sheet that had the amp output reading of 396 amps @ I forget what RPM. I think I remember them setting the amps to be higher at a certain rpm. It's been along time so I can't remember the exact details. Maybe it is not putting out the amps they say???

I remember also sitting down and penciling down, adding all the amps my car was going to demand with all accessories on, a/c, lights, stereo at max, fuel pump etc...I believe that # was around 135. Again, it's been along time now, but that is how I ended up wanting the 200 amp alt.

I'm no expert but all I know is ever since getting that alternator, I stopped burning out the stock ones.
Old 02-21-2008, 07:15 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Naw, I never saw the actual amps on paper. Its just what the guy told me. I guess ill bring the alternator into a shop and see how many amps its puttin out. hopefully they will be able to tell even though its broken. And then ill probly get one with large amps


But more advice is always welcome. Thanks guys

Last edited by Beachmonkey6; 02-21-2008 at 10:15 PM.
Old 02-22-2008, 12:46 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

How is the condition of your ground wires from the engine block to the battery and from the battery to the body of the car? The stock ground wire from the battery to the body is barely thick enough to support the ground needs of the car's electrical system... then you add an amplifier which is grounded to the body and you are over loading that circuit. Also, the ground wire from the battery to the engine block terminates at the bottom drivers side of the block, which over time becomes loaded with corrosion, road grime, and so on making for a poor connection. Remember, electricity flows through a wire like water flows through a hose. + is your outflow and - is your return flow. If the return hose is thinner than the outflow hose there will be a back up of pressure. Have your alternator checked by a reputable shop, ask to see the amperage output. If it checks out ok and it is putting out at least what they claim then try cleaning or replacing the ground wire terminals. And definately replace the battery to body ground wire with a thicker one. Also, what is the condition of your battery? Check the terminals for corrosion, make sure they are tight. Those GM side post battery terminals are notorious for having issues.
Old 02-22-2008, 01:13 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Ive got a good sized and not too old Optima Redtop in there with no corrosion. And my engine was just rebuilt about 2 months ago, so i know there is not any corrosion around the battery wires on either end. I am not sure if the ground wire is the stock size or not, Ill be sure to check that out. Thank you.
Old 02-22-2008, 06:55 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

check everything wireing ect if that doesnt fix it you got ripped off on your alternator because it sounds like your alternator even without your amp would still be f****** up
Old 02-22-2008, 10:42 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

ok, you should get a compasitor, you dont need a 1 farad tho, maybee a microfarad, wich is half a farad, its 50 bucks from meijer or soemtimes walmart, if you have subs, definatly have a compasitor, mabyee 1 farad, depending on wat subs you have, speakers like the 4x6 and 9x6, you shouldnt need a compasitor, too big, but for that amp, you might need one, who knos, im not sure, it depends on your system, battery hookup, and how loud u go, good luck
Old 02-22-2008, 10:57 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

I think everyone who is recommending him to get a cap, needs to read this FAQ written by one of my admins (Glasswolf)

He really knows his stuff,

http://www.caraudiocentral.net/forum...ead.php?t=1888

It sounds like he has something else going on with his electical system, either the alts he's getting are not the best quality, or the idle current rating on the alt is not where it needs to be for his car to charge.

Last edited by cdoyle; 02-22-2008 at 11:04 AM.
Old 02-24-2008, 10:28 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Do the big three mod, then we'll talk.

0 Gauge from battery to body
0 Gauge from engine to body
0 Gauge from alternator to battery
Old 02-24-2008, 11:11 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

I totally agree with The Scary One and cdoyle. One thing I forgot to mention, if the alternator checks out ok on the bench test, check to see if it is getting power from the car. The plug that goes into the alternator body, check to make sure there is power on the thick red wire. An alternator needs power to make power just like an amp. if there is no juice on that wire, the alternator is not putting out a charge, and your car is running only on the charge of your Red Top. (awesome batteries by the way... VERY good choice) You would be surprised how long one of those monsters can run a car.
Old 02-24-2008, 11:16 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Does the big 3 mod really help that much?
Old 02-24-2008, 11:20 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

thirdgenfcarnut hows that v6 runnin for ya?
Old 02-24-2008, 11:23 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Yes. Yes it does. Do it on every car you ever own. It's cheap (go to your local prax air or other welding supply store, and get some welder 0 gauge. Nice thin strand wire makes it easy to route!) some marine places can also put a factory-style side-terminal end on the wire. Then just bolt the stuff in. Pretty easy.

http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/371
Old 02-24-2008, 11:34 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Originally Posted by Travis odell
thirdgenfcarnut hows that v6 runnin for ya?
Good enough for commuting everyday... its a learning experience, troubleshooting it every time something goes wrong... I do have dreams of bigger and better, but the wife and I are closing on our first house this Friday, so the dream is on hold...
Old 02-24-2008, 03:16 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Originally Posted by TheScaryOne
Yes. Yes it does. Do it on every car you ever own. It's cheap (go to your local prax air or other welding supply store, and get some welder 0 gauge. Nice thin strand wire makes it easy to route!) some marine places can also put a factory-style side-terminal end on the wire. Then just bolt the stuff in. Pretty easy.

http://www.cloudelectric.com/inc/sdetail/371
Im gonna look into what I haft to do to do this and if not to hard im gonna do it.
Old 03-11-2008, 10:05 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

no you dont need a capacitor
Old 03-23-2008, 01:48 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

I got a JL 1000/1 (1000 watts) and two 12" JL W6V2s
I just got a 150 alt. still had my lights flicker. Had a redtop also.
Upgraded to yellow top and I go no problems at all.
Wires, Alt, Battery. All you need.
My alt installer "suggested I get a cap ASAP" I said **** that ppl at third gen know more and guess what THEY DID!

Don't get a ugly cap. Do it right the first time and it will sound a look good
Old 03-23-2008, 01:13 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

For those that don't understand how a capacitor works, or what they do,
I suggest you do some research.

A capacitor among other things will reduce ripple on the DC line which
is a benefit for any power supply in the amp. The capacitor will also
recover a voltage fluctation (+/-) to maintain a more constant operating
voltage.

The steadier the input voltage, the more stable the amplifier circuits and
signal quality.

Whether you need one, or not is a different topic altogether.

900 Watts peak is totally different than 900 Watts RMS. When your car
stereo is maxed in volume it is very rare that the amplifier is pushing 900
Watts continuous because of the difference in the source signal.

In any case, that is a heck of a load for the battery to overcome.

You want the amplifier to feed from a clean DC source like a battery.
Try removing your battery and run the system and motor on the alternator.

Come back and tell me how poor the audio sounds, and if your motor still
runs, let me know how much performance you lost.

Capacitors are measured in Farads. The Farad rating denotes the storage
capacity and also the frequency response in active (reactance) circuits.

A mircoFarad is 0.000 001 Farads. Half a Farad is 0.5.

In my opinion, if you are blowing out alternators, or your lights dim when
the bass pumps, chances are you could use a capacitor. This size is
unique for each system.

Don't go to a stereo shop and get hooked for $100's on glammy looking
capacitors. Some of those guys are out to soak you on a sale.

Capacitors are never a bad idea for a system, especially those with rediculous
wattage.

Take this with a little of that salt, and read up. Don't get scammed by
audio sales guys, but also don't get misinformed about how a capacitor
works, and what it can do for the electrical system in your car.
Old 03-23-2008, 01:18 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Since I don't think many are taking the time to read this FAQ, I'll just post it here for anyone in the future.

There are tons of other FAQ's my admins have written at
www.caraudiocentral.net

A capacitor WILL:
-Act as a filter for AC ripple effect caused by the imperfect rectification of the AC current produced by an alternator, and rectified by a DC voltage regulator.
-Smooth the demand curve for current on the alternator, thus extending (theoretically at least) the alternator's lifespan, and, on a not so good note, this can also help to mask the symptoms of an insufficient alternator by smoothing these spikes that also cause the more obvious signs of a weak charging system, like dimming headlights when the bass hits.
-Reduce propagation delays in current supply for brief, spiked demands by the amplifier from the amplifier, and response to this by the electrical system. Amplifiers have to provide a very dynamic and quick response many times. A capacitor can assist in this if the rest of the charging system is up to par.

A capacitor will NOT:
-make your system magically sound 10 times better.Many people believe that a capacitor adds NO real benefit to an audio system, and this is why you never see before and after demonstrations, or factory capacitor company vehicles at car shows.
-Replace the need for a larger, high-output alternator and/or a deep-cycle battery or batteries.
If your electrical system is inadequate, the ONLY way to fix this, and again I repeat, the ONLY WAY to fix this, is to replace the alternator if your voltage rails are sagging to below 12 volts while the car is running. This is the SOLE source of electrical current for your car when the motor is running. The car's battery is in parallel with the alternator, and while the battery will help to stablize voltage at 12VDC, the alternator puts out a higher voltage, and if your voltage rails are dropping to 12 volts, you're already overdrawing the alternator's capacities, and if your voltage rails sag to below 12 volts then you're also going beyond the abilities of the battery or batteries to stablize your voltages. Both of these symptoms will result in battery and alternator damage.
A capacitor only masks these symptoms, in much the same way as regulating voltage to your headlights so they won't dim as bass hits, when voltages can fluctuate between 14.4VDC and 12VDC.

When the motor is turned off, the battery then becomes your source of electricity.
When the battery is run down, and when the capacitor(s) is/are depleted, the alternator has to work even harder in order to supply current to the car, the audio system, and also to recharge the capacitor(s) (which deplete more quickly) than they recharge) as well as recharge the car's battery(ies).

If you plan to use the audio system for prolonged periods at high volumes with the car turned off (such as for SPL events) you'll want to use isolated deep cycle batteries dedicated to the audio system to avoid damage to the batteries, and damage to the speakers and equipment from clipping.

So by adding a capacitor to try taking the place of a high-output alternator, you are actually causing more work for your alternator, and causing even more damage to that stock alternator.


A capacitor does have it's uses, but it is not a magical fix for a lacking electrical system.



Another item I'd like to touch on is the more recent advent of the high capacity capacitors (25, 50, 100+ Farad capacitors) and so-called "BattCaps."

These types of capacitors have extremely high ESR values which makes them very bad choices for the uses mentioned above. They are usually carbon-film based capacitors in order to get such high values, as opposed to the much lower ESR electrolytic capacitors you tend to find in teh 20 volt 1Fd type cylinder style units.
End result is avoid anything like the 100Fd capacitors like a plague.
Old 03-23-2008, 02:27 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Sime points about that quote:

A capacitor will NOT:
-make your system magically sound 10 times better.Many people believe that a capacitor adds NO real benefit to an audio system, and this is why you never see before and after demonstrations, or factory capacitor company vehicles at car shows.

That depends on how much voltage is dropped during a continuous, or
peak event. The bias for the transitors in the amplifier will reduce as the
input voltage reduces. The lower the bias voltage, the less headroom and
therefore distortion can occur. This is easily shown on a scope. In extreme
cases, it can be heard, but the damaging transients are often produced
in sub audible levels.

-Replace the need for a larger, high-output alternator and/or a deep-cycle battery or batteries.
If your electrical system is inadequate, the ONLY way to fix this, and again I repeat, the ONLY WAY to fix this, is to replace the alternator if your voltage rails are sagging to below 12 volts while the car is running.
MOstly correct. A higher output alternator can supply more power,
however it is still a rippled source. A battery produces pure DC.
You can install a 16 volt DC battery for competition systems and tailor
the car's electrical system to work with it. That's done in very extreme
audio systems.

This is the SOLE source of electrical current for your car when the motor is running.
This is not true. The battery is always supplying current whether the engine
is off, or on. As you can see in the paragraph below, he/she contradicts
themselves:

The car's battery is in parallel with the alternator, and while the battery will help to stablize voltage at 12VDC,
A parallel power source also supplies current. Simple ohms law. This can
be proven with an ammeter, or even heard in the audio system if the
battery is removed/disconnected.

the alternator puts out a higher voltage, and if your voltage rails are dropping to 12 volts, you're already overdrawing the alternator's capacities, and if your voltage rails sag to below 12 volts then you're also going beyond the abilities of the battery or batteries to stablize your voltages. Both of these symptoms will result in battery and alternator damage.
True

A capacitor only masks these symptoms, in much the same way as regulating voltage to your headlights so they won't dim as bass hits, when voltages can fluctuate between 14.4VDC and 12VDC.
Not entirely true. It may mask the problem, but even in the most correct
systems, there is always ripple. A capacitor will filter out the ripple and
provide near instant corrections in voltage fluctuations. This always
improves signal quality and prolongs alternator life. Benefits are not always
noted if the alternator is sufficient (IE: A good alternator will not be damaged
if capable of enough current).

When the motor is turned off, the battery then becomes your source of electricity.
Partially incorrect. See above. The battery is always supplying voltage
and current. It doesn't magically 'disconnect' when you turn the key.

The reason the alternator puts out a higher voltage is to charge the
battery while the engine is running.

Your home Ni-cad battery chargers also output a higher voltage to charge
the AA, AAA, and 9 Volt batteries you use in remotes, toys, etc.

When the battery is run down, and when the capacitor(s) is/are depleted, the alternator has to work even harder in order to supply current to the car, the audio system,
True. This also highlights my point in the previous post about removing
the battery. Yet another contradiction made.

and also to recharge the capacitor(s) (which deplete more quickly) than they recharge) as well as recharge the car's battery(ies).
Somewhat true. Don't be mistaken in the sense that capacitors are batteries.
They "deplete " in milliseconds, microseconds. They charge up in milliseconds
and microseconds.
If you plan to use the audio system for prolonged periods at high volumes with the car turned off (such as for SPL events) you'll want to use isolated deep cycle batteries dedicated to the audio system to avoid damage to the batteries, and damage to the speakers and equipment from clipping.
True and also highlights the point of a pure DC battery source.

So by adding a capacitor to try taking the place of a high-output alternator, you are actually causing more work for your alternator, and causing even more damage to that stock alternator.
Not true once again for the reasons stated above. A capacitor will only
help in these cases, even if the alternator is insufficient for the task.

The only thing worth backing in that quote is that you need to match the
battery and alternator to your stereo system.

You just can't throw a 900 Watt load on the car's electrical system and
expect things to work and last.

Your car 's electrical system was not designed for high output amplifiers in
mind from the factory.

Just like a motor, when you change one part, you need to match the system.

Last edited by lukn4trbl; 03-24-2008 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Correct spelling errors: Capable, and Deplete.
Old 03-27-2008, 08:48 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

As stated, a cap will block ac ripple from getting to you amp. I cannot see how a cap will prolong the life of your alternator though...

If you have a 150amp alternator, you should easily be fine. If you completely 'dead head' the amp and push all 900 watts, you'd only be actually using about 64amps, leaving you with 86amps to run the car (which is definetly enough!).

I don't think your stereo is killing your alternator.
Old 03-30-2008, 11:29 AM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Although I am not an expert I did read early in the thread that you installed a new motor. I am wondering if something with the install is cross wired or not grounded and pulling power from the alternator. maybe you have been looking in the wrong area all along.
Old 03-31-2008, 05:24 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

Do not put a grenade in your car I am running a 1200 and a 1800 amps in my car with the stock 105 alternator and my headlights don't dim as bad as you would think but the big 3 is awsome but not going to make a difference between 4g and 0g. I am using 4g for everything and it is more than enough for my system and I have hyper grounded the engine and my guages are more accurate than on the stock ground. On my old camaro I found out something really cool about the F-body and that was that a boat battery will fit in the stock location and if you put a battery tray on the other side you could have 2 batterys in the front and have enough cranking amps to jump about anything.
Old 04-10-2008, 04:22 PM
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Re: Do i need a capacitor?

since you got a bigger alt and propabably didnt upgrade the wires to bigger gauge then yes that could burn out your alt. the stock wires can barely handle the stock alt. my stock rated alt burned off my charging cable last weak. that cable gets really hot. just run a 4 or 0 gauge as power from battery to alt and same size from block to body. as your neg cable from batt. to block should already be 4 gauge. then you have your big 3. i just did mine yesterday when i put on my powermaster140 amp alt. and the charging cable is nice and cool. you should never need a cap for any reason with the right equipment. heck with the big 3 and a stock alt. your sound system would still run like a dream. with the bigger alt even better. and for big 3 i just bought a new positive cable and a new neg. cable and used thoughs. for alt and grounding of block to body i do have pics if you would like to see them
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