jimp2001

How much of a gain in hp could I expect by tuing a car with no modifications?

I want to start to learn how to burn my own PROMs and I wasn't sure if I should invest the money now, or after I buy a complete exhaust system ($1200)

I plan on doing a zz383 swap in the near future and I figured playing with PROMs in my LO3 is a good place to start.

How much should I invest in PROM burning tools?

-Jim

Dewey316

There is quite a bit of gain. I gained almost a full second in the 1/4 mile by doing tuning on the stock motor. Once you have the tuning down, you can really tune the motor to take advantage of the new exaust.

It really doesn't cost all that much. If you have a laptop, you can get going for around $120. If you don't, you can probably find an old laptop on e-bay for under $50. You can really get into it for under $200 pretty easily.

GOY

Can you describe peice by peice, with estimated cost and where to obtain them, how you can get it going for that much, not including the laptop. I've always read people shooting out figures, but none of my searches ever read "Buy this list of things to get started." Really interested... I'm making my last efforts before ditching TBI over a group of stupid little issue's, for MPFI.

BMmonteSS

Cheapest route

Moates Burn1 85$
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=48

24 to 28 pin chip adapter 30$
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=36

27SF512 flash erasable chip 5$x2
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=39

DIP socket 1$x2
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=58

ZIF socket 10$
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=44

Total: 137$

Keep in mind with this setup you can read but NOT burn 2732 chips that are stock in the TBI ecm's. Thats why you use the adapter and the flash chips. I used the 2732's when I first got started, and out of 30 chips I would get 15 that worked and 5 of those would crap after a few burns. Plus these chips require a UV eraser, which cost another 50$ I also included a DIP socket, to solder in place of the factory chip socket. This is not necesary, but makes life much easier, plus you can still put the factory chip in if you take it out of the plastic holder. The ZIF is also not necessary, but will pay for itself in messed up chips. It's really easy to bend a leg on a chip sticking it in and out of a DIP socket.

Of course there are other alternatives, but none as cheap as this combo. I use a pocket programer, that will do almost any chip. It cost 150 bucks. If you have the money moates' autoprom is the ultimate tool. It allows real time changes as you go down the road. This will save you so much time it isn't even funny. Combine the autoprom with a WB and you'll be in good shape.

jimp2001

Thanks a lot, that was a HUGE help.

On a scale from 1-10 (1 being easy, 10 being difficult) How hard is it to burn chips?

Is it trial and error, or isi there a method to the madness?

Oh yeah, 1 more before I forget... Can you remove the Electronic Speed Limiter by burning a new PROM?

GOY

I think the hardest part would be switching the sockets... but this is something I'm definately going to have to give a shot.

Dewey316

for $25 Craig will solder you socket, all you have to do is ship him your ECM.

Green92RS305

i've been wanting to get into chip burning for a long time and now that i've gotten a job at a custom shop i could also use it to make money. but the thing is i don't want to do only TBI cars, i also want to do L98/LT1/LS1 cars as well, how much of this is interchangeable?

GOY

I think the LS1's and later LT1's are a whole different arena with their non-interchangable proms.

BMmonteSS

Yeah LTx's and LSx's are whole nother ball game. No chips to burn, you have to use flash software. Other than that, engine's are engines and computers are computers. You just have to get an idea of how every ECM handles different basic functions like fueling, timing, AE, idle and tranny controls.

The above equipment will do tpi and other ecm's with no problems. You'll need another adapter but other than that your good to go.

Tuning is a bit of trial and error. More like datalog and make changes. To start out I would change some basic things like the speedlimiter. There is a disable speed and a reenable speed that is slower than the disable speed. Say disable at 110 and renable at 108. Try setting this to 30 just see if your actually burning your chips correctly. If you are then set it 255 and 250, this is as high as you can set it. If you ever need to run faster than this, your out of luck! You can also disable EGR by setting the enable temp higher than you'll ever get to. I wouldn't disable EGR unless you don't have it installed anymore. It can actually help milage and isn't active at WOT.

The best thing to do after this is start working on your VE tables. You do this by datalogging with winaldl, paying attention to your BLM tables. These will tell you where and how much fuel you'll need to add or subtract. Once you get your VE tables in the ball park (+- 5 BLM is good enough for now) you can start playing with your timing tables. Once you do this you get to go back and redo your VE tables because timing effects your AFR. Of course you can go in and change your TCC settings, fan temps on TPI cars (tbi has an external switch), and a whole lotta other things. You'll be surprised how little timing TBI cars have, and how rich they are on the top end. This is a generalization and not all cars need more timing and less fuel. Thats why we datalog.

A few things you should notice once you start tuning.

Who ever wrote the code for GM computers likes to use 6 tables to do one thing. They all end up adding together to give you your real value, your timing table isn't your actuall timing, there are several adders and modifiers. Do some searching here, there are alot of good papers and post on how these adders workd together.

Your stock O2 is usless anywher other than 14.7 , thats why the DIY prom board harps on WB O2's. See my post about fueling problems. There's a link to this in the DIY prom stickies.

Not all small blocks like 36* of timing. Swirlports don't like much at all. I've never been able to run more than 28* with the ones that I've played with.

Even though your ecm compensates for changes, the motor will run better when your VE tables are correct and the ECM doesn't intervene by way of the BLM's. Don't know why, it just does.

Don't lie to the ECM, things will work better the less you lie. IE: don't say you have bigger injectors than you really do.

Those are just some pointers off the top of my head. Feel free to search and ask questions if you don't get it. Try to start another thread, that way this one won't get too mucked up with different questions and answers.

Happy tuning!

jimp2001

Thanks so much for your time, I have been searching but threads on the site tend to veer off topic and confuse the living crap out of me

Green92RS305

so whats a site or place that i can get top or near top quality connectors and programs. i might be able to get my boss to buy this stuff for me cuz he really wants to get into the total aspects of performance building and i know alot more about computers than he does.

BMmonteSS

www.moates.net is your one stop shopping center for DIY prom burning. Come to think of it he's the only company in the world that does nothing but DIY prom stuff.

Hey craig, do I get a discount if I mention your site more than 10 times in one thread?

GOY

What would you do if you wanted to burn directly onto the factory type memcel, how would that list of parts change?

I know, I know - why do that, sometimes those chips are garbage, etc... it's just a simple straight foward "What if" question.

jimp2001

I hope everything down there is OK... Louisiana got hit hard and New Orleans is in really bad shape.

My prayers are with all of the residens of the gulf coast.

BMmonteSS

Are you talking about the big blue "memcal" that the TPI's and later TBI's got, or are you talking about the earlier PROM that is just a chip in a small black plastic holder?

To burn either of these you are going to need a UV eraser. I can't even remember where I got mine. Traxion's original "intro to prom burning" had a good writeup on these. For a memcal, you would peel the sticker off the stock chip and rig up the UV eraser to shine into the chip on the end of the memcal, there are three chips on the memcal you just want to mess with the prom. Once erased you use an adapter that moates also sells to burn the factory chip. For the older TBI vehicles you just carefully extract the chip from the plastic holder and put it back when your done. Not easy.

Mr. Moates also sells a nice adapter that bypass's the stock prom in the memcal and allows the other chips to still work. This is how all the aftermarket chip companies do it.

http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=32


It looks like Craig has posted on his website after the huricane has moved through. Hope things are well.