JAR_Tudor

Greetings!

About 9 years ago I began building a 1937 Ford street rod with a 1989 IROC Camaro 350 TPI engine in it. I had converted it into a 1990-92 speed density system, bored the engine to .030” over and installed a custom cam. At that time I had a custom prom made to upgrade to the new camshaft, remove EGR/smog control, and setup new rear-end gearing, etc.

I was able to get everything up and running fairly well [except running a bit rich].

I have now come back to the vehicle and now feel that the cam I put into the vehicle may be a little too hot for my taste now. The engine seems to have a little too much lope which results in a slightly rough idle which causes the whole vehicle to vibrate. (Vibration may be a result of engine kit vibration mounts, body/frame coupling, etc – maybe the cam is not the culprit???)

The engine also appears to be running rich as the exhaust smells and there is significant carbon build-up in the exhaust pipes. Acceleration also seems to be sluggish possibly due to over rich idle. (Perhaps my idle/vibration issues are with the prom and not the cam???)

Below are the current specs of the vehicle:

• 1937 Ford Tudor Sedan (~2,700 lbs) - no emissions requirements
• 1989 IROC Camaro 350 TPI engine
• Bored to .030 over with flat top pistons
• Stock heads, valves, and valve springs
• Custom grind Competition Cam (CS 3161/3162 HR112) with the following specs:
  • Duration @ .050: In: 220 Ex: 230
  • Gross Valve Lift: In: .427 Ex:.427
  • Lobe Separation: 112
• Removed MAF, installed MAP sensor, and rewired to a 1990-92 Speed Density system
• Using a stock GM ECU, (#1227730)
• Custom programmed prom from Street & Performance
• Rear end with 3.50:1 gears & 27.95” tall rear wheels
• 700R4 automatic transmission with stock stall speed
• Headers with 2-1/2” dual exhaust (Edelbrock RPM mufflers, Vibrant Ultra quiet resonator)
• Changed knock sensor to 1990-92 vintage
• Removed and plugged EGR valve
• Removed Exhaust Air Pump system
• Removed Charcoal canister
• Retained VATS module from Camaro
• K&N air filter mounted to throttle body

I had contacted Competition Cams asking for a recommendation for a milder cam – they recommended a custom grind (3343/3344 HR112 +4) ($312) with the following specs:

• Duration @ .050: In: 212 Ex: 218
• Gross Valve Lift: In: .450 Ex:.450
• Lobe Separation: 112
• Supposedly works with “stock computer”

1. Would anyone recommend the alternate Comp CAM above?
2. Can I improve the idle (smoothness) of the existing CAM via PCM modifications?
3. Should I consider installing a stock 1990 cam and PCM?
4. Is there another CAM recommended for my application?
5. Is there an off-the-shelf PCM / CAM combination for my application?
6. If a custom prom is required, are there any recommendations on where to get it programmed for my application?

As there is a lot of work remaining on the vehicle, I do not have much surplus time to tune the prom myself. (At least not now). I have purchased ALDL-to-PC cable, but have not used it yet.

The vehicle will be used for recreation street driving – in other words, no racing, drag strip, etc. I would like to improve the smoothness of my idle, yet provide good low end torque.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
JAR_Tudor

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'd first like to welcome you aboard. TGO has a large volume of great tech info.

The only PROM advice from this forum will be to DIY. IOW get the equipment to program PROMs and tune the vehicle yourself.

As for the cam, there isn't too much difference between the 2 you listed. The intake duration is 8 deg less. And the exhaust duration is 12 deg less. This will reduce the overlap which will help smooth the idle. Neither cam has much lift. Less duration and more lift will generally lower the operating RPM and increase the torque.

For the price of the custom cam I'd be tempted to find an LT1 pull out. Getting one from a Y or F body opposed to a B body will net a better cam.

Please let us know how you make out with the DIY tuning. There is a lot of information here to help out in that regard.

RBob.

3.8TransAM

R those roller cams? I see the HR in the part number but I dont ever remember seeing that duration with suck low lift on a hyd. roller from Comp?

If your talking a stock (maybe throw in runners) TPI setup, the first would be pushing it in my opinion cam wise.

I've used several comp cam hyd roller 212/218 (.488/.498lift) and they flat out rock as far as I'm concerned if your using a stock or nearly so TPI. Simply awesome midrange torque and help it last a little longer on the top. Help setup and tune 2 cars with the cam I mentioned. (one went 14.3 with disconnected EST wire lol)
Great idle and slow speed driveability as well

In your case, for best results, start reading the stickies up top and looking up what u need to know. Unless they have the car to dyno and drive, your tune will never maximize your combo. Its not very expensive or hard to get started. Just start reading slowly and taking lots of notes(your best friend here trust me)

Everything u asked or commented on is here in a sticky up top or by doing some searching.

later
Jeremy

RPOL98

are you using solid motor mounts? that sounds like a kinda mild cam. you shouldn't need to live with the symptoms you're describing.

I'm using the LT4 HOT cam with my 1990 IROC 350 TPI w/ 730 ECM (8D) and it's pretty mild (218/228 dur @.050, .525" lift w/ 1.6 rockers). i'm using 1.5 rockers that I already had, .492" lift.

you may want to start with data logging to see what the ECM is seeing, and telling you. I had to do that for mine, otherwise you're troubleshooting cluelessly.

69 Ghost

iTrader: (1)

Until you read your bin you do not know what the guys did when they burned the chip. My first question is did they account for no egr or air pump? Waht about a charcoal cannister? Second when you go up in cams they tend to need a less gas at idle the VE tables can be affected quite a bit. My first guess is that the tables may have hit the limits but there is no way to tell. You may also have some IAC issues depending on how you have it set and what your bin parameters are. What I am saying is that you should be able eliminate your rich problems, etc by getting a better tune. Do a search for SAUJP and read that post. Look at the moates site for a cheap burner and start datalogging.

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Some changing of your o2 thresholds at idle along with a bit of timing work should get your idle smoother than you describe with that cam.
Those kinds of changes will need to be done by you, with the car.

The reasons you listed that you want the car for (cruising smoothness) will be the most difficult to do by mail order chip methods. A few days cruising around and making small changes is exactly what it needs.

Get some equipment and dive in.
Lots of help, its not a "sink or swim" enviornment here but it is DIY.
Connect the data cable and look at what is happening and you'll begin to see the problem areas. Researching here for specific areas will show you that the issue has probably been covered and how to correct it. Providing there are no physical problems causing the problem.

Hate to see you lose some go power by changing cams just to have the same issues due to lack of fine tuning.

JAR_Tudor

Thanks for the guidance and responses. I haven't had a chance to respond yet as I have been too busy researching cams & DIY-proms on TGO.

To answer the questions posted...
- It is a roller cam. Competition Cams apparently sometimes abbreviates their custom grinds. Also saw this nomenclature anomoly in another thread in the TPO cam section.
- The engine is mounted on two aftermarket ~1-1/2" rubber motor mounts on the front and a new stock 700R4 single mount in the back of the transmission.

I am also wondering if the roughness may just be due to the engine running super rich.

From reading TGO I have also come to the conclusion to initially stick with the current cam and dive into the world of modifying my own prom. I am fluent in electronics and mechanics, but really a novice when it comes to tuning engines, hence my initial hesitation. You've given me the nudge I needed to get into it. I believe I will be much happier in the long run.

I just won a Needham's EMP-11 programmer off eBay for $175 (and with my luck found a EMP-21 at work the next day...). I also plugged in the ALDL cable in for the first time. Tried to read the BIN via ECM850B but got an error - "timeout... Cannot make connection to the car". Most other paramaters seemed to be stable and accurate. When I stepped on the accelerator pedal, TPS went from ~0.5 to 3.5 VDC @WOT. Checksum seemed to bounce around however from 8D/8D to 8B/8B. Figured I would just wait until I dump the prom via a programmer read. I just finished making an adapter from the carrier to a standard 600 mil dip for the programmer.

The car is currently not very drivable at the moment. My primary reason for posting on TGO now was to get suggestions as to whether I should tear out the cam - this requires disassembly of the whole '37 front end and I would rather do it now than later down the road.

In parallel with all of the other required vehicle work, I plan to continue researching on DIY-Prom, begin analyzing my custom prom against AUJP/AUJP 8D and perhaps also compare it against other BIN recommendations. (SAUJP?, Others???).

From reading other posts I am questioning whether my O2 is getting sufficiently hot. I have ceramic-coated block-hugger headers and I welded the O2 bun immediately below where the collector bolts onto the header. I have confirmed the ECU goes into closed-loop mode however via the SES lamp pulse rate method, so maybe no issue here.

I am also wondering if I should consider installing 1.6" lifters due to the relatively low lift of the cam I have. Sounds like more lift may be better suited to TPI. Probably however would not fit under the stock valve covers that I had chromed.

Thanks again for feedback/support thus far and the many outstanding postings / information available at TGO.

Regards,
Jerry

MonteCarSlow

Jerry,

If you have windows on your computer, see if you can get the eprom to download over the ALDL port using my utility (see the thread below).
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ack-based.html

Use the third button down from the top to download the eprom (after you've selected the appropriate com port).

JohnL

Do you have a check engine light and if so have you checked for fault codes?

John

JAR_Tudor

I Got "rtp4-tool" to connect and download, but the data was corrupted.
----------
Check engine light never comes on after engine runs - never had any codes stored - everything seems to be happy.

JAR_Tudor

Greetings,

I have pulled the data out of my modified prom. Below is the DIFFERENCE between my current VE table and the stock AUJP VE table. In other words positive numbers are higher than stock AUJP VE table values.




Given the lower idle vacuum of this cam (~50 KPa) I was surprised not to see any reduction around the 700-800 RPM, 50 KPa area to reduce the fuel at idle – instead there was effectively more fuel added in at this point – hence the resulting rich condition I have.

Given this, I am considering reverting back to the original AUJP VE table as a starting point for tuning. Perhaps I should even consider shifting 35 KPa AUJP values into the 50 KPa area of my VE table.

Additionally, I am also thinking about reducing the idle O2 voltages to counter act the greater cam overlap.

Also the DIFFERENCE between my current Spark Advance table and the stock AUJP Spark Advance table is shown below. In other words positve values are more degrees advanced from stock AUJP and negative are less degrees from stock AUJP Spark Advanced.



Also, my Spark Advance table seems to be a little ackward in it's adjustments from the stock AUJP - should I also consider reverting back to the stock AUJP Spark Advance tables as a starting point?

Comments or other recommendations?

Regards,
JARTudor

JP86SS

iTrader: (1)

Its good to see you are diving in!
You will be happy you did (after the initial hardships of course)
The initial changes may seem intimidating but remember, you can always put it back the way it was if it doesn't seem to respond to your changes.
The one thing you want to do is confirm the changes you make so you see there was a difference because of the change. Tweaking numbers without knowing what your trying to accomplish will lead you in circles.
Even after making several changes you will probably start over again from your beginning point. Thats how you learn to take good notes on what works and what didn't help at the moment.

Before doing any PROM changes besure your in good adjustment mechanically for TPS, IAC and timing is set to 6* (or matches the setting in your bin)
With the engine warmed up, (don't begin tuning cold, that comes later)
Start with making changes to your idle spark settings. Sometimes a little more at idle can smooth out some roughness. Don't get crazy, just a few degrees can show signs of improvement. Go a little more and see where the benifit is lost and then back it down some.
Check the BLM (learned cells) for idle to see if the ECM is adding or removing fuel during idle. Increasing spark tend to need more fuel so if you have some richness, adding the spark may bring it into line.
Conversly, having too much spark needs additional fuel. Decreasing the spark may allow you to remove some fuel from the VE table.
A bit of testing should show you what is happening.
Once through that stage, then look into shifting the o2 constants (idle) if needed.
Then after racking the brain, go for a test drive to relax and datalog as you go. Drive normally, don't stomp it to get readings. The stock o2 sensor doesn't read them correctly during WOT anyway.
Replay the log and observe how your fueling BLM is reacting to different RPM / Kpa ranges. The picture of how the engine is running will begin to show.
There is a logging program called "Datamaster" that can be downloaded that when used along with "VE Master" can help you get the VE corrections dialed in for your "under 3000 RPM" areas. Its a bit easier for a beginner to get close than doing it by hand.
A few drives with those and you'll be drivable and able to begin going after the other drivability issues one by one.
HTH

edit: to make the text display properly, use the switches without quotes
["code"] blah blah, then ["/code"]

JAR_Tudor

Thanks JP86SS,

I have fixed the VE & Spk Adv "difference from AUJP tables" I uploaded in my previous post(thanks).

As you can see the "mail order" BIN is pouring more fuel in at the higher idle MAP value (~50 KPa)...

Would you recommend starting with the stock AUJP BIN or should I start using my current custom mail order BIN?

91L98Z28

definitely start with a stock AUJP bin.

you don't really know what all has been done to that 'other' bin without doing a full binary comparison to a stock AUJP. And the differences which do exist, may or may not even be appropriate for your combination.

it may be slightly more work up front (since you'll probably have to disable VATS and a few emissions things since you don't have emissions), but in the long run at least you'll know where you started from and exactly whats been changed and why (keep notes for every chip you burn!). And you have one less variable in the mix if you start with stock AUJP.

the one exception I would make is for the super-AUJP project you can find elsewhere on here, several folks collaberated together and made some improvements to AUJP, to create a 'better' AUJP starting point. All the changes made are documented, and even jsut reading up on it is educational.

69 Ghost

iTrader: (1)

Do not start with a stock AUJP! Get SAUJP V3 then go from there read the thread to see why. You mentioned 3 major factors that can cause problems, No EGR, Pump, or Canister. There are 2 flavors of SAUJP get the one with the CCP removed. Next step that you have not mentioned is a VSS. What you will find with a larger cam is just what you are describing. Typically rich at idle and possibly lean at WOT. This is mainly due to cam overlap. Contact Moates and get a Prom adapter and some chips along with a flash and burn. Start dataloging by deciding what you want to use. TunerPro will shortly have the ScannerPro stuff built in which is what I recommend. Look into the histograms to get you VE and SA tables in order. If you are running too much spark advance then you will get retard and you can use the histograms to find out where in the tables and how much to pull out. Same for the VE tables. Idle is a different story but start there. If you look at the LT1 pages there are guys running that 220-230 cam if it is a LT1 style cam and they say it is small so you should be fine if you get a good tune except for maybe a torque converter.

JAR_Tudor

Thanks 69 Ghost,

I have removed my eprom, installed flash, successfully reprogrammed, and have begun modifications with SAUJP V2. I have backed out the "Low Octane disable" (as it is more practicle for my driving habits), slightly offset VE at idle, and tweaked idle O2 slightly.

I have now come across what appears to be an AFR imbalance between cylinders as I am measuring header temps of 275F on all but two pipes which spike up to 500F on a short run. This anomoly is kind of a deviation from this thread, so I will post it as a separate thread.

Thanks for the ScannerPro 8D files 69 Ghost - another tool to explore...

Regards,
JAR_Tudor

JAR_Tudor

Due to many unforeseen circumstances, project car has sat for a few (5+) years - unfortunately with old gas, so I had to go completely through fuel system with new fuel pump, filters, fuel rail o-rings, and new Bosch Gen III injectors (0280155890 - 22.48 Lbs/Hr vs 22.08 Lbs/Hr @ 43.5PSI???). Ready to fire up again, but want to recheck prom starting point before I do...

Now I am trying to catch up to where I left off on tuning – unfortunately with a laptop HDD crash to boot...

I have pulled my .BIN from the prom. Thanks to this post, it jogged my memory that I must have left off with S_AUJP_V2 - I believe I used V2 because at the time as I felt that V3 was a little beyond my starter tuning skills, and probably still is today...

Unfortunately/understandably, I am not finding the nicely bundled S_AUJP_V2.BIN, .XDF, & .ADX combinations for TunerProRTv5 like I have found for S_AUJP_V4... From what I have gathered people have moved on to S_AUJP_V3/4 and TunerProRT moved from .ECU/.ADS to .XDF/.ADX.

I have been trying to re-read all of the Sticky Threads and remembered how a person could become quickly confused, so I was hoping for a little jump start here.

Given my vehicle configuration above and essentially my newbie knowledge, is S_AUJP_V2 still a good starting point?

If so, with S_AUJP_V2, are the following the best starting points for TunerProRTv5 definition files?
- Import Super_8dm2.ecu to Super_8dm2.xdf
- Import 1227730_8D.ads to 1227730_8D.adx

I realize that there is probably so much more I can do starting with S_AUJP_V4, but my gut sense is that I really got to walk before I run...

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
JAR_Tudor

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Go with V4. It's pretty much burn and run. The spark tables are for aluminum heads and may be a bit aggressive for cast iron but simple to cut and paste the tables using the compare feature and AUJP. Or, I or others can give you a ready to run bin to burn. PM me if you want it.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

As far as tuning goes, there isn't much difference between using S_AUJP V2 and V4, so start with the newest version, V4.

IIRC V4 has the XDF and ADX bundled together.

You can find the files that were hosted at moates.net at http://www.gearhead-efi.com, specifically a link in the forum here: http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/forum.php

Either of the cams listed should have no problem being tuned to idle and run well. A friend of mine with a Big Block Olds, has a much less EFI friendly cam (Read: Not at all), and I've been able, with some fudging to get it to idle well, still a bit richer than I would like, but there is plenty of overlap to contend with, and run like a scolded cat when the throttle is opened.

You can tune it to run well. One thing that I have found to make tuning easier, is to use an EPROM Emulator, such as the Moates Ostrich 2.0. Not only does this make tuning quicker, but you get to see the results immediately, and even A-B a change. You could possibly do this with EPROMs, and a bin switcher, but you'd have to predict what may or may not work and program them to an EEPROM to use that technique.

JAR_Tudor

utilityguy2 & Six_Shooter,

Thanks for the feedback and leads.

Honestly I have been avoiding straying too far from the stock configuration primarily due to my comfort zone (lack there of) - I do not have a good sense of optimally tuning spark tables. VE table optimization seems straight forward. I figured the closer to stock, the greater probability of seeking local assistance if needed...

In 2007, in addition to the ALDL cable, Prom Programmer, & Atmel 29C256 EEPROMs, I also bought Moates original Ostrich, which I sadly have never opened yet. I should have most of the tools that I need.

I presume the version of choice is 41026A.BIN, 8D_SAUJP_V4a.xdf, & SAUJP_V4_01.ads?

I might take up an offer for a closer starting point for spark tables...

Regards,
JAR_Tudor

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The spark tables that are in V4 should be a great starting point.

JAR_Tudor

A question on O2 sensors...

I am using ceramic-coated block hugger headers. I welded the stainless O2 bun ~1” below the header flange into the 2-1/2" stainless pipe - with this configuration my O2 sensor is ~10” away from the cylinder head exhaust ports. Perhaps a little farther than stock cast iron header configuration.

Anyone have a sense as to whether I should be using a heated O2 sensor?

Note that I did add a ground wire.

Attached are pictures.

JAR_Tudor

A few more pictures of the car... While searching for .bin files, I established an account over on GearHead-EFI.com - as I noted there, the ‘89/90 IROC TPI 350 fits as if Henry Ford anticipated it - well actually I did have to cut back fire wall ~1” and K&N filter only clears radiator by 1/4"...

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Inj...2098#post12098

EagleMark

The O2 sensor will be fine there. It is going downhill corect? Wire up, sensor down.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

I was glad to be of help. Hope the start up went well.

JAR_Tudor

EagleMark, the O2 is actually mounted horizontally as shown in the picture – perpendicular to the header collector tube. See any issues with non-heated in this configuration?

JAR_Tudor

utilityguy2, Thanks for the modified spark tables - I was able to fire it up for the first time in ~5 years after just 2 seconds of cranking!

Actually idled better than it ever has! I then realized I had inadvertently left the brake booster vacuum disconnected, which when reconnected caused a bit rougher idle (presumably richer F/A ratio...) I’m guessing I need to adjust VE tables and/or adjust the idle speed stop to lean it out a little more at idle.

After running for awhile, I began to notice the same exhaust tube temperature difference phenomena I noticed last time I had it running:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-air-fuel.html

This time I notice header tube temperature differences on two of the cylinders at 790F versus 575F on remaining cylinders – not sure if this is enough to burn a valve... I was hoping that the new injectors might have resolved this… As a side note, I did not remove lower runner bolts, just upper plenum only with new upper gaskets (dry, no Form-A-Gasket, oil, etc. - I install these gaskets dry because sadly I have to remove the plenum every time to remove/clean the air filter...) Is an air leak on the lower runner / manifold gaskets likely?

Regarding VE tuning of S_AUJP_V4 is using TunerProRT acquisition/logging approach or using Freescan/VEMaster approach the recommended method? I have come across “8D VE Correction Table for TunerPro.xls” as well. I have never logged yet...

Thanks again for the feedback and support.

utilityguy2

iTrader: (1)

Glad you got it running. On my engine the center cylinders headers on each side run quite a bit hotter than the outer ones. I've always thought that was because they are tight together. My recollection is that headers idling run about 300* and centers about 100* hotter but I could be mistaken. It would be interesting if someone else could confirm the temps with a temp gun to see what the "normal" range is. My thinking is same as you in that a hot cylinder (EGT) would be running lean.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Exhaust temp is only one variable or indication to look at, plug reading should also be used, along with other things like visual, and smell.

JAR_Tudor

Thanks to this sight and utilityguy2, I was able to get the engine tamed to a point where the whole garage did not smell like a combustion chamber ready to detonate... This afforded me the time to finish off wiring the rest of the vehicle, installing interior (dash, seats, seatbelts, etc.), finalizing suspension adjustments, and installing street-worthy wheels/tires to the point where I can safely/legally drive on the streets. I can now properly tune the vehicle.

I took the vehicle out for a 15 minute drive which I captured on DataMaster. For a coarse correction I decided to first use VEMaster. I reflashed the EPROM and this seemed to further improve the tune, however it appears that I may have a peculiar drastic drop in VE (see before/after VEcomparson.jpg image). Thinking maybe I had an anomaly somewhere I captured another 25 minute drive with DataMaster and ran the second capture through VEMaster again. This seemed to further exacerbate the drastic drop in VE (see VEcomparison2.jpg).

Suspecting systemic over-fueling, I rechecked the fuel pressure – it measured 43 PSI with vacuum disconnected and between 33-36 PSI with vacuum connected.

I have not reflashed this second VEMaster BIN as I am concerned I have a systemic anomaly and do not want to cause damage due to over lean condition.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

I can post and/or email VEMaster log files or DataMaster files if that would be of benefit.

Thanks again for the feedback and support.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

My suggestion? Don't use any sort of "auto tune" or "VE tuner". I have NEVER had them work in a way that produces a fuel delivery map that makes sense, or even allows the vehicle to run correctly. The problem with them is that they are simply looking at numbers generated from the ECM, and some of those numbers may not be correct, at the point in the log they are displayed. There is always a delay between when things happen and when they are reported, and it seems some items may get updated more often than others, further skewing the results. At least that's my experience.

I always manually tune, adjusting a little at a time, starting with idle, then cruise, then part throttle accel, and then any area that needs it after that. I find that WOT/high load areas gets tuned in the mix of tuning other areas, with only some fine tuning of upper WOT/high load areas needed later on.

I know people disagree with how I tune, but it always works for me, and always works well.

JAR_Tudor

Six_Shooter, thanks for the prompt reply - I fully concur on typically avoiding "auto" results or blindly following computer results that give the precise wrong answer to 15 decimal places... I am more of a "slide-rule" type engineer (see attached, it has guided me through my whole career.) I only used VEMaster in this case to get a quick-and-dirty feel...

However it appears I am frequently getting BLMs in the low 100's and sub-96 range with only an occasional 128-130 range (O2 Voltage 200-900mV) which leads me to believe I have a more systemic issue or I am fundamentally missing something.

The check engine light works, however no codes have been captured.

Perhaps O2 sensor is malfunctioning due to extreme over rich exposure?

I had put a ground ring under the seat of the O2 sensor to (what I thought would) improve grounding (see previous O2 photo) – perhaps this is causing some sort of dielectric anomaly?

The O2 sensor is from when I had the engine rebuilt in 1995, but only has 75 miles and perhaps a few hours of run time on it, albeit perhaps rich... Corrosion?

Perhaps I need a heated O2 sensor after all due to headers & 2-1/2” exhaust?

Anyone have any ideas?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Have you considered adding a WB as a tuning tool?

I would do so and then run engine OL and determine if in fact you are running rich. Then work on Ve table off the report from the WB. Then run a smoothened VE table interpolating the A/F you see on the WB for cells with no hits. If you have not swapped cams yet i would stick with what you have 220/224 @.05 with a 112 LSA is not too big of a cam. IMO.

Possibility of an exhaust leak allowing fresh air to be seen by NB?

Yes a heated NB is a good idea...

JAR_Tudor

By adding WB, do you mean install a permanent WB (perhaps in opposite collector) in additional to a heated NB sensor or temporally install WB in the tail pipe (since I do not have cats)? I haven’t investigated WB yet as I am still ramping up on the basics... Is there a specific thread you would recommend covering this approach?

I do not believe I have an exhaust leak issue - I have short ceramic headers with pretty good gaskets and have gaskets with sealant between the ceramic header and stainless collector where the O2 sensor bun is welded. Haven’t seen or heard any signs of leakage.

When I made the wiring harness (circa 1995), I ran the O2 Sense Low line from the ECM (C3 E15) to a ring under the O2 sensor - since I have a dedicated O2 ground, I have ordered a 4-wire ACDelco AFS75 heated oxygen sensor. Now where to find O2 power...

I haven't swapped out the cam yet in hopes that I can tame it...

I appreciate the help...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Mine was wire by a friend of mine that is an expert in auto electronics. I believe he used switched power at ignition switch. Ign on the NB02 is being heated. Accessory pos it is not.

[QUOTE]By adding WB, do you mean install a permanent WB (perhaps in opposite collector) in additional to a heated NB sensor or temporally install WB in the tail pipe (since I do not have cats)? I haven’t investigated WB yet as I am still ramping up on the basics... Is there a specific thread you would recommend covering this approach?/QUOTE]

I believe all WB's can 'simulate" a NB. I have not done so. Instructions are on the WB site(mine is Innovative). Certain ECU's are designed to use a WB for feedback. I have an EBL and it can use a NB or a WB for feedback. Just needs to be configuered to do so.

What i was refering to is to use WB to help dertemine where your issues lie with the VE table result. I would add it to other side of ext manifold. you can datalog it to a specific log file and see what the resulting A/F is or just witness it on a DB gauge at the piller for a mount. You would run OL temporarily and determine what is happening as far as A/f at those areas of rpm/map that you are seeing fuel pulled. That resulting low speed VE table is unique to say the least. I presume BLM is pegged max at 114 or so ???

you have invested a lot in that motor. Seems a WB would be an outstanding investment.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The Use of a WB can help pinpoint fueling issues much quicker than when using a NB. The flip side is that they can also be confusing to a novice. You won't be tuning for a specific number like too many people believe. You don't need WOT fueling to be exactly 12.23456:1 AFR, but somewhere between 12.5 to 11.7 or so on an N/A application is good, at WOT. At idle it doesn;t have to be and actually rarely will ever be at 14.7:1, and when ethanol blended fuels are involved the stoich point point. Many people say that E10 (10% ethanol) has a stoich point of 14.3:1, which many people shoot for, or at least to be around at idle. personally I still shoot for 14.6 to 15:1 at idle, I've had my car idling just fine down to about 16:1 at idle, but can hear that it's just starting to get choppy, I don't recommend trying to push this far as there's no point, it was just for my own experimentation.

Part throttle accel, should be in a term of AFR numbers between stoich and whatever you have for WOT AFR, though you have to use what the car is doing as the guide. Does it stumble at part throttle accel, this could be too much or even fuel, some experimentation is needed. If adding fuel starts to clear up the stumble, then add a little more, this would be done through the AE parameters and not the VE table, since this would be an AE (Accel Enrichment) problem. Think of AE like a pump shot in a carb, it's a little additional fuel to get the engine to rev or "accel".

Cruise is a whole 'nother story. When I was running open loop on my car I had it running about 15.7 to 16:1, at cruise speeds, I like to save fuel. This causes other issues, and should only be attempted if you really know what you're doing or you are willing to possibly sacrifice the engine in the name of learning. Usually a cruise AFR of around stoich or just little less (maybe .2) is good. I have found on some cars though that a stoich cruise is far too rich, and could be due to a few reasons, actual delay time between cylinder events and when it reaches the WBO2, the placement of the WBO2 (related to the first part), overall efficiency of the combustion process under load/cruise and a few other things that are not coming to mind clearly right now.

Also realize that in closed loop, the AFR will swing wildley between rich and lean, as the ECM uses the feedback from the O2, and built in algorythems to control fueling, this is normal in idle and cruise conditions, just not WOT. If you see the AFR swing in WOT throttle conditions, you have an issue, that may or may not be mechanically related, and/or tune related.

So do some reading on how to use a WBO2 sensor when tuning, I suggest ignoring any post or document that says to tune for a specific number in a general setting, especially when WOT is being discussed. It's just not that cut and dry, especially when an engine swap is involved. Other parameters of the car affect what the tune will need to be in the end, and even many times what the final AFR numbers will be.

Also if there's some issue you just can't tune around, it may be a mechanical issue, and no matter what you do with the tune, you will need tune out a mechanical issue.

JAR_Tudor

It appears I keep coming back to engine tuning every 6-8 years... Despite the fact that I have to keep restarting the process of learning how to tune over and over again, the advancements on this forum appear to make it worthwhile...

I just updated to S_AUJP v6-28, coupled with 84Elky’s “Things to Consider for a Better Running Engine” and the 1989 (converted to ’90 SD) 350 TPI with CAM has never ran and idled better - thank you 84Elky (and former contributors) for your significant contributions!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...r-running.html

Now that the ’37 Ford interior and exterior are complete, I am now back to fine tuning the engine again.

Back in 2014 I had bought an Innovate Motorsports LC-2 wideband kit which I wired the LC-2 module into the computer under the dash (before I installed interior), however I never installed the included Bosch LSU 4.2 wideband o2 sensor until I was ready to begin fine tuning. Much to my dismay, I just went to calibrate the brand-new LSU 4.2 o2 sensor before installation and sadly I keep getting a “Pump cell circuit open” error (4 red flashes) from the LC-2 status LED. The Innovate Motorsports LC-2 manual suggests either a bad connection or sensor (DOA?) - unfortunately multiple reconnections / recalibrations yield the same Error 4 condition. I do not like repaying for faulty items - might consider swapping cable and sensor to LSU 4.9 sensor configuration if I knew the LC-2 module was not faulty. Does anyone have an LC-2 configured with an LSU 4.2 cable that they would be willing to test my sensor if I shipped it to you? (please PM me if willing.) Perhaps it may be best holding off installing the WB o2 sensor until I tune out the default rich BIN to reduce carbon build up on the new WB o2 sensor...

Below is a recap of the vehicle:

• 1937 Ford Tudoor Sedan (~2,700 lbs) {no emissions requirements}
• 1989 IROC Camaro 350 TPI engine rewired to MAP SD with 1227730 ECU, distributor, & sensors.
• Engine bored to .030” over with flat top pistons - stock heads and valvetrain.
• Custom grind Competition Cam (CS 3161/3162 HR112) with the following specs:
  • Duration @ .050: In: 220 Ex: 230; Lobe Separation: 112; Gross Valve Lift: In: .427 Ex:.427
• Shorty headers with 2-1/2” dual Magnaflow 12286 exhaust and no CATS
• Removed Air Pump, charcoal canister, and plugged EGR valve.
• 700R4 automatic transmission.
• Ford 9in rear end with 3.50:1 gears with 27.95” tall rear wheels.
• Run only on ethanol free gas.

I have installed the Moates (original) Ostrich, thus can now upload BIN updates on the fly.

As noted, I am starting with the default S_AUJP v6-28 BIN with the following modifications:
· SETUP, Injector Flow Rate: 22.48 Lbs/Hr [Bosch Gen III injectors 0280155890]
· Loop Closed Param, FAST o2 Low TPS & MPH (Swing Point): 450 millivolts (@84Elky)
· Loop Closed Param, SLOW o2 Low TPS & MPH UPPER Boundary: 450 millivolts (@84Elky)
· Loop Closed Param, SLOW o2 Low TPS & MPH LOWER Boundary: 400 millivolts (@84Elky)
· Loop Closed Param, Delay INT Update if Low TPS & MPH: 8 # of 12.5mS counts (@84Elky)
· Loop Closed Param, CL o2 Prop. Gain Counts vs % Adj SLOW o2 Volt Error Table: @50%
· SETUP, Cylinder Volume: 726.46 9 CC/Cyl [Bored to .030” over - 355CI]
· WB OPT 2 (0x99B), b0 = 1=Get Sensor #1 RAW Counts: Set
· Everything else is default S_AUJP v6-28 including VE and SA tables

Given the faulty LC-2, I will probably begin by updating VE tables via correction from BLM offsets. Tuning SA still seems a little bit out of my current comfort zone.

Attached is a data acquisition from a drive and another from a few revs after parked renamed from .xdl to .txt to facilitate forum upload as well as a few pictures.

If anyone is willing to review the data acquisition streams and provide any insights, observations, concerns, recommendations, suggestions, etc. - I would be extremely grateful and honored to receive your feedback.

Regards,
Jerry