Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I'm making a downpipe for my turbo set-up, and was showing a friend of mine some pictures and he said to not have the two O2 sensors inline (NBO2 and WBO2). These would be seperated by about 3 inches. in a 3" downpipe.
Inline really fits best to clear the tranny and floor.

Any truth to this?

I might be able to have one pointed out in a 9 o'clock position, with the other at the 12 o'clock position, but wanted to protect both of them as much as possible from road debris and the elements.

Here's how I had them laid out, I haven't drilled the holes yet.



Thanks

???

iTrader: (5)

i have the wideband out putting the 0-1v for the norrow band too, so you wouldn't need 2. but as for your question. reading thru the lm1 site over the years, it seems that the o2 doesn't need to be in the air stream to get a good reading. infact you can double bung it or they even sell something thats like 4in long. to keep it from overheating and to help with leaded fuels. so i'm thinking just having it in line with a stock norrow band o2 would have no effect at all.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

My LC1 does the same with the sim NB output, i just feel more comfortable running a the two sensors.
This way if one fails I can still use the other

So there's no problem with my proposed O2 sensors install?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I never run them inline. I tend to stagger them a little. You have the room to stagger them a little.

In that position you need a heated NBO2 or it isn't worth installing the NBO2 if you expect it to read properly all of the time. I tend to use both a WBO2 and NBO2 at the same time. The BAUJP code uses the WBO2 as the closed loop sensor. If it senses a failure with the WBO2, then it starts using the NBO2 sensor. both the WBO2 and NBO2 are reported in the ALDL datastream.

Using the WBO2 sensor as the closed loop sensor allows for better engine tuning over the MAP KPA range. If the WBO2 sensor fails and the NBO2 is used then it defaults to stock stoich. type closed loop feedback.

EDIT: For the price of the NBO2 and WBO2 it is worth running both. The JAW WBO2 controller is about $50, the LSU4.2 is about $50, the NBO2 is about $30. For under $150 you have two sensors and one can do lean burn and WOT tuning.

BTW, an 18mm axle nut for 50 cents is a great O2 sensor bung.

If you do put the O2 sensors inline, then put the WBO2 in front (upstream) of the NBO2.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I can stagger them, I just hate the look. I know, this isn't about looks, but I will know what it looks like.
The plan is to use a heated NBO2 sensor as well, I have a few kicking around.
I have to ask why it would matter which "order" the O2 sensor are installed in? It's not like the upstream O2 sensor uses any of the exhaust gasses.
I've had a few people say how great using nuts are for O2 bungs, I've never done that and will never do that, it looks tacky and cheap IMO, I prefer to use actual bungs because I believe it looks more profesional. Sure I might spend a little more than the next guy, but this is my car afterall. The extra buck or three spent on the bung doesnt bother me at all.
BTW, code $59 also has WBO2 fueling control, that I might eventually turn on.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

For the difference you will see in AFR variations it is not worth staggering them if you don't like the look. The WBO2 measures more accurately and does different sampling (ref cell) than the NBO2. You might create a small vacuum around the second (downstream) O2 sensor. Watch a rock in a pond (eddie) / flowlines.
Using nuts as the O2 sensor bung..........it is all about attention to detail and how the nut & weld is ground / flowed. If you think that a threaded piece of round pipe is less tacky than a threaded piece of hex pipe that is fine. Just trying to give you some ideas on fab. stuff.

Yes, $59 does WBO2 CL fueling.

BTW, you mentioned a heated NBO2 kicking around. They are new, right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Best to get stainless steel bungs (303 or 304). With standard steel the sensors don't want to come out. Just run a tap or thread chaser (for spark plug threads) through it after welding.

RBob.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The 3M brand copper based anti-seize product is O2 safe and works great with turbo flange threads (high heat / rust) and O2 sensor threads. It is expensive but works great.

???

iTrader: (5)

if your worried about it. I'd call innovate's tech line and ask. because I don't think your going to find anyone that's run them inline, and then stagered to know first hand if it matters. I wouldn't think twice about doing it inline on my own car because I've seen posts by the guy who invented the innovate stuff and he's said when using them on 2 stroke's, double bung them on the inside of a exhaust bend so the sensor is out of the exhaust flow as much as it can be. it will still read dead on and keep as much oil off from it as you can, making it last longer. now if the NB o2 was going to be non heated, I'd say it needs to go first for the heat. but heated it prob wouldn't matter either. as for having a back up o2. I don't really get that either. if my wideband stops working for some reason my car runs great in open loop, infact I haven't even turned closed loop on in my car running 59, nor do I have a norrowband sim hooked up on it. just the wideband 0-5v for logging and autotuning. if my wide band stops working, even thou the car runs great I wouldn't keep driving it like that because it will eat a 80$ sensor for no reason. so I pull over and fix it.(just restarting the lm1. the sensor is over 5 years old and doesn't like how rich restarts sometimes.) same as I would do if I had a NB hooked up. blowing 80$ sucks to me. in my girls car, running $8D I have her lc1 sim the NB and just log the wideband a/f on my laptog for tuning. I've double checked that if the lc1 goes out. the car runs fine so having a back up NB seems useless to me, seeing as the car runs fine and she will prob never know and keep on driving killing the WB sensor either way. am I missing a good reason to keep the NB?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Not really. I left the NBO2 in because I was doing a lot of tests comparing code mods and how things reacted and how useful a stock NBO2 could be. In the end, it was easy to leave the NBO2 and do a "backup O2" code mod.

I like having both so that I can log trends how the NBO2 can actually be useful under certain circumstances. I have never had a WBO2 failure, but it would be nice to have a working NBO2 if the WBO2 fails and the gas is a summer vs. winter blend. You don't need both O2 sensors. It is more for testing purposes.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

For me, I like to have a back up, especially with all the all the 'reports' of LC1 randomly loosing calibration, having the stock NBO2 there to use as back up or at least for comparison purposes, makes it worth while, besides welding the bung in only takes a few minutes, worth it for evaluation sake anyway.

To discuss the "eddies" or turbulance that the upstream O2 would create.

Take that same rock in the stream, but increase the flow rate (higher RPM), the turbulance or eddie gets longer, so staggering the O2 might net the same result.
It would seem this being the case the only solution would be to place the sensors side by side at equal distance in the tube, and probably then not directly side by side, but maybe an inch apart or so.
Then we realize that there is pressure involved and that changes everything, though the pressure would change at different flow rates (RPM), so how will the readings really be effected?
How long could these eddies be, and how much will they be effected by sensor protrusion into the exhaust path?
There are spacers sold for the WBO2 sensors that pull the sensor tip completly out of the exhaust path, does that idicate that it only needs a small sample of the exhaust gasses, that will still give a proper reading?
What about distance between the sensors when they are inline? what would be too close or too far?

Don't take this as being argumentative, I just want to discuss this a little deeper, and understand if this is really as big of an issue as people make it out to be. I've found that many things that are "wrong" actually have no effect or are indeed a good way to do things.

I may just end up puttingthe NBO2 sensor at a 90* angle sticking out the side of the pipe, at the same distance along the pipe. I wanted to install both in the top to provide some protection from road debris.

???

iTrader: (5)

here's what they sell to get them out of the exhaust.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...8&cat=0&page=1



i can't find where i read how the wideband works but it takes a sample of the exhaust as long was there's no leak it will read right.

here's the NB

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=3127





as for the lc-1 losing cal. i believe its because they tell you to wire them wrong. if you probe thru your ign box you will find power wires that are hot in run but not start. i use those because if you have power going to the lc1 during cranking and you have a battery thats not 100% or a low V spike it will trigger a free air cal.

i got my lm1 back in 2001 and back then it said when wiring it in to the car to use a relay to do just that, cut the power to it while starting. but now days they don't tell you that and i think its even worse with the lc-1's. wired like this, both of my lm1 and lc1 have never lost a cal and my lm1 sensor has never needed replacing all these years.

i don't think they loose cal as much as get recaled.



if your really worried about it, you could put the wideband first, double bung it or buy the thing they sell, that way you never have to worry about overheating it either. then put the NB next.. leaving it in the flow like normal and the WB won't be in the stream at all.

pandin

Straight up exposes the sensors/wires to alot of extra heat when idling, 10 degrees to about 80 degrees (to drain water) is "better". IMHO