Motopsyco

Ok ive been posting up things recently since I bought my 89 bird, buit heres some good vats questions for ya. I hadnt thought much about it when i bought the car a week ago, but the guy had hotwired the starter, said be replaced the column and it wouldnt start after that, so Naturally I thought ign switch bad, but then realized a few days ago that probably the vats, wrong key, not matching up, so I figure, i dont hotwire the starter thing once I get push to start button installed, rather use the key, but figure I cant since its prolly the vats that wouldnt let it start, but I also noticed the car has no turn signals, the bulbs are there and fine, but the lever does nothing to make them work. Is this possibly part of the vats system that wont work also? and is there a way I can get the starter to work with the key, possibly just disabling the vats sytem, Id rather do that, although it would be cool to use a button to start the car but since it would be so much easier to just turn the key that extra amount, id just as soon do that instead. So is there away to get the key working in the switch the way it should? And why wont my turn signals work? I know many of you know more about this than me, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Also is there a diagram that anyone has made or detailed instructions on buying and installing the resistor to bypass the vats, and do you think that would fix the preoblems I have?

--Stormr

Rolling Thunder

Well to get you started first no the turn signals are not part of the VATS system they are totally separate. Next what the vats does is really a 2 part attack to disable the car. 1 disables the starter by means of a relay and 2 disables the fuel injectors. Im kinda surprised it starts if the VATS system is all messed up? Has it been swapped to carb or something? First then we have to do is figure out what exactly you have in place and whats been done then we can figure out how to make it right.

Motopsyco

the car hasnt been swapped to carb or anything, it still has pretty much every original part under the hood, the only thing I noticed not stock as far as wiring goes is there is 2 heavy guage wires spliced into the big fat harness on the engine in front of the air cleaner on the pass side. those 2 wires run into the inside and are currently the 2 wires to touch together to crank it over. there is no start from the key, adnd it does light up the security light when turned all the way. So I really dont know why it still starts and runs fine. the vats in this car doesnt seem to do anything but disable the starter. If you have some ideas id love to hear them, I plan on doing the resistor trick and see if that works, and as far as the turn signals Im going to drop the column and see if there even hooked up, I noticed the rod isnt for the high beams, it just moves back and forth freely.

Rolling Thunder

Ok well when you start it by shorting those wires together is the key in or out? If the key is in i kinda suspect that the VATS module might be working somewhat however perhaps the starter relay is done for or a wiring fault. We can test for this by going to the VATS module and disconnect the line that goes to the ECM to send the everything ok signal. If it still starts then we know somehow it has been removed from the system entirely as that should kill the injector pulse. The in escapeable problem with all this is some how the ECM needs to get that everything ok signal so we need to figure out how this is happening despite not having a matching key. Unless of course it was programmed out of the ECM, a bypass module or something that emulates the signal was patched in however unlikely as that may seem it has to receive it some how. However it could also be that the 89s ecm was replaced with an earlier ECM that did not have VATS as well. However that would cause a new set of issues to do with cold starting. It sounds to me kind of a hack job (maybe "hack" is a bit harsh but for lack of a better word...) was done installing the column no offense to him but i suspect the issue with the turn signals is just something that wasn't assembled correctly or just never competed. However first lets get the car started with a key then worries about the turn signals later as that may get sorted out in the process as it seems we may have to tear into things a bit to figure out what was done.

Motopsyco

thanx for the info rolling thunder, you sound like you know alot about this subject, and thanx alot for being so helpfull. This new info also goes out to anyone with good knowledge of teh vats system. ok I got under the dash, pulled down the panels and took a good look to see whats connected and not connected, heres what I found and was quite surprised, and this info will probably be helpull to you in helping me out. I found the vats cable from the column disconnected, then looked, couldnt find the other end from the car, moved some wires around and found wrapped up in elec. tape a couple resistors connecting the vats wires already. I also got some input from the kid I bought the car from about it. He said the guy who had it before him was the one who replaced the column and it started and worked fine when he bought the car, also mentioned the guy found out about the resistor bypass from this site! anyways he said about 6 months ago the car simply wouldnt crank over anymore from the key and thats when the security came on when he tryed to crank it over. So Basically im guessing that since theres 2 resistors in there that he used the original key to measure the resistance and spliced in the closest correct resistance, so now it narrows down the possibilities on why it will still start by using the 2 wires to crank it. But now I havent a clue on were to start looking for reasons why it wont crank from the key. All the fuses are fine, the resistors look perfectly fine, although not soldered in, just twisted real good in the wires, if that matters much. Do you think it could be another issue in the vats system? I really need some ideas here because now just bypassing the sytem with resistors doesnt apply to my situation. and once again, thanx for any input from anyone who can help me. Also if it matters/helps the car takes alot of cranks to start but thats probably from dirty injectors, plugs and basically just needing a good tune up

--Stormr

camaronewbie

There should be only 1 resistor wired in the bypass the vats. I'd get a wiring diagram, get the starter, battery, and alternator wires fixed per the stock wiring diagram, and take out those 2 resistors. Then I get the correct resistors from radio shack, wire them in one at a time, and test the ignition switch with each resistor, until I found the correct one (there are 15). When I found the one that car starts with, then I'd connect the VATS wires as they should be, and go to ACE Hardware and get 2 keys cut that fit the ignition lock and have the same resistance as that resistor - then you're back to the way it should be!

Rolling Thunder

Ok that clears things up a bit its all coming together now lol. First refer to the schematic found at the middle of the page as this will all make so much more sence lol.

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats_passkey_system

First youll notice the VATS module in the middle of the schematic and on the right side of that module there are 3 outputs on to the security light one to the ECM and one to the relay that enables the starter. Now its odd that it starts and gives a secuity light. However i wont fuss about that just yet. What im getting at is we need to see if the black and yellow wire is getting grounded to enable the starter relay. To do this take a test light and clip it to 12V then touch the probe to the black and yellow wire while cranking the light should turn on. If its grounded (light on) then the VATS module is telling it to be able to be started and we have a problem elsewhere in the starting circuit. If its not grounded we either have a bad VATS module, bad connection, wrong resistor used something like that.

Motopsyco

thanx, I will check out the yellow/black wire, I do not have a meter right now, but will probably buy one tomarrow after work to check it out. after reading that link, I do have a constant service engine soon light on, may be the code 53 that was mentioned, I havent read the codes yet from the car, didnt think much of it and working on other problems before worrying about that light. Also I probably didnt clarify it much but the security light isnt on while the car runs, only if i turn the key all the way to start position. the way its set up is just turn to ignition on, then touch the 2 wires together thats running in from under the hood and it starts up and runs good. if i turn the key to just ignition and touch the wires to crank the security light never comes on at all, but the ses light is always on when its running. Also Im not worried about getting correct resitance for keys or anything, just want to be able to use what I got and just start the car normally without putting in a push button to start kinda setup, so anything I can get to work and/or bypass anything is fine by me. And thanx again for replying to this issue I'm having, once I get this out of the way its on to fixing up and restoring this poor tired old bird back to its former glory.

Rolling Thunder

Well I get what you mean you just want it to work but the best and often times easiest way to make it work is to make things right. Like for example if it has the wrong resistance I dont mean so much for the keys as quite honestly ide rather bypass the vats system all together even if it wasn't giving me trouble as i know it eventually will i mean more the resistor that he put in. If it was wrong changing the resistor may correct everything as simple as that. However now that i get what your saying about the security light that makes things seem a bit more sensible. If the lights not on that means in theory its saying that everything ok and it should allow it to start. The SES code may be a lot of things but if it start it must be getting that signal so i doubt the code will be set but if it is set my guess would be that it was stored from a previous issue or some intermittent problem. Its starting to look very much like a problem outside of the VATS system and more like a problem in the starting system as again if the security lights out it should be enabling the car to start. Because it runs it has to be at least sending the everything OK signal to enable the fuel injector pulse indicating that it is at least partially working. Although again to be sure check for a ground on that black and yellow wire and that will tell us where your stand as far as where the problem is with VATS or the starting system.

Motopsyco

Now I got another question for you abotu that, something I didnt think about back then, but in one reply you stated this "However it could also be that the 89s ecm was replaced with an earlier ECM that did not have VATS as well. However that would cause a new set of issues to do with cold starting." I have recently realized that I have a cold start problem, the fuel pump relay doesnt kick the pump on to prime the system with ign on, I replaced it tonight and still the same. Is there a way for me to tell if the ecm was replaced by an older one? I wouldnt be surprised if the guy who changed the column got the ecm as well thinking it would match up when he replaced the column. This could be my whole problem possibly, but want mor info on what others may think about it

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Both ECM's will prime for 2 sec. The cold start difference is to do with the amount of fuel added on a cold start cranking; not what happens when the key is turned on
You need to determine why the pump is not priming through the relay 1st.
Can you hear the pump relay click on?
Do you have 12V at the relay fulltime?
If any of the wires to /from the relay are bad the relay will not work
Typical GM EFI wiring

Rolling Thunder

Could not have said it better myself and the schematic should go a long way to helping figure it out. If the relay dosnt click the ECM is either not sending the 12V signal to the relay, you have no ground, or broken wires. If the relay does click and still no prime check for 12V on the orange wire. If theres voltage on the orange wire then the red wire probably has a break between the relay and the first junction where it connects to the other red wires.

Motopsyco

thanx for the diagram, for now all I really know is that the relay doesnt click, and that its brand new, honestly i was really thinking replacing it would cure this, since when I tracked down the old oneit was broken off its mount and no case on it, bare transistor and resitor showing out in the open and tucked under the master cylinder, and when i moved it around it would short and id hear the fuel pump run for a second , but then I could shake it and nothing, then after a minute or so, move it again and same thing even though the keys werent in the car at the time. so when I replaced it I really thought "all right we're set now!" but nope all hopes and dreams gone out the window I still dont have a volt meter to check this yet though, hopefully if this sunday is like this last one I can get back to it, seeing as sundays are my only days off.

Motopsyco

Also just outa curiosity is there a possibility the neutral safety switch could make it not crank and not prime?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Two seperate items.
Neutral switch is on starter circuit , see dia above. If it was faulty car would not crank
Fuel pump prime is controlled from ECM only , through above mentioned relay

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Once again as discussed
You have just answered two of the questions above.
You now know you have 12V power at relay and relay was correctly supplying power to the pump so you know that wiring is OK from relay to pump
You have new relay.
Now work out why relay is not being operated

Rolling Thunder

If they keys werent in the car and the fuel pump started your relay was bad anyways because the ECM should not have been calling for the fuel pump to turn on. So i wouldnt say that all hope was dashed because that wast right. Because it dosnt click that means the relay inst receiving the 12V signal from the ECM or its lost its ground. If you dont have a volt meter its kinda hard to make electrical tests but do you have a test light because that would probably suffice here?

Motopsyco

I'm gunna try to get a voltmeter tonight after work hopefully. Then I can start testing things, I did go out to the car today and tryed the resistors I bought , and the one in there is the correct one, so I definatly know now that its not a vats problem, cuz everything else wouldnt let it start at all, but you guys already knew it wasnt vats, I just needed to eliminate that factor for myself, also I noticed when i turn off the car, the pump runs very loudly for about 5 seconds then turns off but sounds wierd when it shuts off. Is there a possibility that my pump is going out and maybe thats the problem with it not priming? although I dont hear a click at the relay so either way the relay should still click i think right? if its nicer out tomarrow like it is today I am going to try to get out to the car beofre work and test some wires. thanx again for the ongoing help with this guys.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

If you look at the diagram above , pump also gets power from oil pressure switch.So long as engine has oil pressure above 4 psi pump will continue to run until OP drops

6cycbird86

I have a similar problem with mine as well. Just curious if my issue is one of the same.

When I turn the key, the starter does not activate at all, however a loud clicking/banging is heard and I can visibly see the alternator attempt to turn. The security light does come on.

Is this what happens ? or do I have a different problem

Rolling Thunder

Different problem. If it was VATS it would do nothing at all.

Motopsyco

a loud clicking iif i remember usually happens when the battery is pretty much dead, it clicks instead of cranks.

And I'll be working on the bird sunday and hopefully can track down whats going on in it. I'll post up whatever finding i get. On a side note, I did however finally get to replace the headlight motors, speaker cover, all the light bulbs, turn signal flasher, taillight, and have an instrument cluster andexhaust system for it that still needs to be installed, plus it will have a plate and insurance friday, I can finally drive my bird Ive had it since novemeber, but havent driven it other than home from the guys I bought it from. It'll be great driving a thirdgen again after 6 years without one.

Motopsyco

Ok I got some new input here, while working on the car yesturday I decided to go ahead and buy a new ign switch it was cheap so no biggie, swapped that out still nothing for cranking, also I decided to buy a another ecm from thirdgen ranch installed that today, and found out my old one was bad, now he fuel pump kicks on with the ignition, glad i spent the $20 on it just for the hell of it. So now just down to this one problem, the no crank from the key, I have your diagrams saved on my computer here, so I'll be checking out that when I get a chance. I wouldve yesturday, but between installing the new guage cluster, ign switch, and working on the water heater for the house, I ran outa time. But I am glad I got at least one of the big issues fixed now. Thanx again for the help so far guys Also at least for now if the starting problem takes awhile to fix, I can just hook up those wires hanging in the dash to a push start button temporarily, at least the car wont look so rigged.
Also figured I'd add that my security light no longer comes on and I found a broken wire under the hood going to the gas fume thungy at the front by the horns, fixed that and I no longer have a code for the fuel problem, checked that out before installing the ecm. so just the no crank issue left. Also that when I am in full crank only position my brake light on the dash comes on, only that one. Any possibility a brake switch or soemthing to do with the brakes is preventing it front cranking? Thanx again guys for the help so far.

89 TA

did you ever find a solution to your cranking problem?

Motopsyco

havent figured that out yet, decided to just hook up a push button start in there instead. It works fine for now and I'll deal with the cranking issue at another time.