bryan623

My 89 GTA has over 200k miles on the engine and I have been deciding on whether I should just pull the motor and rebuild it or just get an entirely new engine all together. Now mind you I am not worried about originality or extra HP in the slightest. I just want her for a cruiser. What would be my best option? Also figure this will be done at a garage as I cannot do this at my home since trying to do an engine swap on a gravel drive way that's inclined is a pretty bad idea. Also what is my ballpark costs if anyone would know I live in PA.

BrutalGTA

iTrader: (2)

Just order a new longblock from gm parts direct or one of the sponsors.
A new long lock is the cheapest and easiest way.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Depends what you want out of the car. Stock type rebuild? I like to use a new GM 96ish chevy truck shortblock and have the rest of the topend rebuilt. Quick and easy.

bryan623

Pretty much stock rebuild. I plan on reusing the tpi intake and other engine accessories. I like how the car is now. My only issue is the mileage. I checked GM direct, but it seems they don't offer the right engine anymore. Only the 305. The 5.7 is oddlylisted as a 2.8

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I just go to my local dealer and order the shortblock because websites are not always correct.

I like the 96-?? whatever shortblock because they come with the lighter LT1 type piston, powdered metal rods (same stuff used in the late 92 TPI cars with black valvecovers) and all of them I got had 4 bolt mains. Brand new parts and a warranty, nice.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Problem with buying a new (or rebuilt) complete engine is, you're likely to get TOTAL CRAP for heads, a lower compression ratio, a generic non-roller cam, and any number of other downgrades. Turn your nice sporty car into a lowly piece of crap with a phone company van motor in it instead of an at least somewhat exciting performance-oriented one.

To the best of my knowledge it's next to impossible to just walk up to a counter - ANY counter (or web site... same deal, just a different physical format) - and get a motor that will bolt up in place of yours and NOT be a substantial downgrade.

There are some choices that are close to a direct bolt-in that you could consider though. Best one of those would be a ZZ4 from GM. That, plus a minor modification to your intake manifold and a cam that's more TPI-friendly, would give you an exact Vette L98 replacement.

Then, all you would have to worry about would be, all the stuff you'd have to re-use. Consider that ALL of that stuff has 200k miles and 30 yrs on it as well... sensors, injectors, wiring, cooling system, and so forth. Then there'd be all the rest of the car... springs & shocks, brakes, transmission, rear end, exhaust, and whatever all else wears out and gets tired.

It's RARELY A Good Idea to take an old wore-out car and just plop a brand-new engine in it without doing anything else to it. Not saying "don't do that", or "you don't need an engine", or anything of the kind; only, don't expect that doing that, by itself, will significantly "renew" the car. My recommendation would be, that if the engine still works, then instead of replacing the big castings, concentrate on all that OTHER stuff around it that makes it not run as good... replace the valve guide seals, put refurbed injectors in it, new distributor spark plugs & wires, new O2 sensor and coolant temp sensor, fix all the leaks (if any), change all the fluids and filters in the whole car, do the brakes (you should have the good rear brakes which is a MAJOR plus), renew the suspension, and so on. You may well find that there's absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with "the motor" at all, and that therefore, replacing it would be a GINORMOUS waste of time money and effort with no benefit at all.

Why do you think you need a "new motor", besides just, it has lots of miles on it? What have you fixed or what can't you fix about it? Have you even thought about all that wore-out stuff all around the part you'd be replacing?

bryan623

I did plan on replacing the injectors. The cooling system is completely new. Radiator, water pump and all. Just had it done and a drain and flush of the engine. Was pretty sludge filled. The compressor was just converted to R134a. new seals, o rings, fittings and R134a. The alternator is only a couple years old, but the power steering pump would benefit to be replaced. I also wanted to put headers on the car as I just did a cat back replacement of the exhaust. The motor smokes a little bit when its at operating temp. Doesn't use too much oil. I just wanted to get the mechanical to a point I don't have to second guess an almost 30 year old motor with over 200k on it. Also the transmission was recently also rebuilt. I just felt now would be a good time to get the motor freshened up. If a rebuild is a more viable option I am just as willing to go that route rather than a crate motor. And judging by what you say about newer motors giving me even less performance I feel it may be better to rebuild. My local garage uses Jasper for engine and transmission rebuilding. Would that be a decent option?

Also I do plan on getting the LS1 conversion for my front brakes as well.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Jasper would be OK; just make ABSOLUTELY DAMN SURE that you get the same roller cam, 083 heads, relatively high compression, etc.

"Smokes a little" almost always is valve guide seals. You can replace em for less than $50, and at the same time, add a bit more $$$ and replace the valve springs and rockers if you want, all of which will make your motor run AHELLUVALOT better than it does now.

"The motor" isn't likely to just up and die on you out of the clear blue and leave you sitting somewhere, the way a fuel pump, radiator, alternator, etc. will do. Putting in a rebuilt or even brand-new motor, in the format one would buy in any other way than a WHOLE NEW one (long since unavailable for your car anyway) with the intake, sensors, wiring, etc. etc. etc. It's just not a path to "reliability".

Now if the motor has overheated severely, has a knock, has low oil pressure, etc., that would be a different matter; but thinking you're going to improve the car's reliability by replacing the engine castings, is probably misguided.

bryan623

No, no knocks, over heating or low oil pressure. I make sure to check that stuff at least every other day. The motor has no trouble starting up. A single turn of the key usually starts her right up. And thanks for the heads up. I will look into getting the valve seals, springs and rockers. I guess I could look into replacing the heads. I read on this forum people talk about the vortec heads. I guess that's a good option.

truckerz

iTrader: (2)

If the engine isn't making awful noises, pouring blue or white smoke, misfiring like crazy, your motor is probably good. If these engines aren't beat to death and if regular maintenance is done it is not unheard of getting 250-300k out of them. I'll second the idea of making sure everything attached to the engine is in good order. Valve seals, injectors, fuel filter, air filter, fresh plugs, cap, coil, rotor, make sure all sensors are working like they should, use high quality oil, etc.

Freshen up the suspension, transmission, rear end and chassis bushings. Then if you are dead set on replacing the engine, search this site for engine builds. It's likely you you can find a local shop to put it together if you know what parts work well together if you don't have the proper tools to build your own engine.

If you are patient, and buy parts over time, you can build a more potent engine than stock for only a couple grand.

Late 80s, early 90s 4 bolt truck block with vortec heads can be found for a few hundred bucks at a parts yard.
If you take them apart, you can have the heads redone to support a bigger cam for around 700 (with Springs and valves installed). Find a used vortec tpi intake for a nother couple hundred, and get a cam like a lt1 hotcam or similar. Those cams can be found used, in perfect shape for around 100-150 bucks. Have a machine shop clean the bottom end up for another 200-400 bucks, depending on what the engine needs, and a local shop should charge around 1500 or so to assemble and install everything. (If you can do the assembly and instalation, you will save so much money)

So, for from 1700-3500 bucks, you can have a 300-350hp engine as good as new that is more performance oriented.

The best thing you can do though is spend a week or so digging through this forum, calling engine shops, machine shops and parts yards. The more you can learn about it the better you will feel when it comes to pulling the trigger on what to do.

The first question always has to be, "what do I want my car to be".

For me, a street only car, that I might trap once or twice, just to see what it can do is what I wanted. I wanted a very streetable very fun car that I could drive daily. So, I got the aforementioned 93 suburban 4 bolt block, had hypertutectic pistons put on a stock crank with decent rods and ARP blots. Grabbed a 268xfi cam, Stealth Ram, and Some upgraded 185cc heads from pro-filer.
It is a proven combination I've seen on here. There are a few builds that are almost identical and they make from 340-370whp. Perfect for my application. I'm not going to win any serious races, but it will be a blast to drive.

It took me about 2 weeks of research to figure out what I wanted. The point being in this long winded post, have patience. You can have more for less if you know what you want and the knowledge to aquire it.

Good luck, and I hope everything goes well.

bryan623

Thanks for the sound advice. I will take it all to heart and do some research before deciding on what to do in the end.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Vortec heads ARE NOT a particularly good option for TPI, because there's only ONE intake base in the world that will bolt up, and it's $$$$$$$$. Worst of all, TPI itself KILLS any possible advantages of those heads, as has been demonstrated to death. That's just not a good upgrade path AT ALL from where you are starting out from.

truckerz

iTrader: (2)

Sofa, a used set of vortec heads and a ported aftermarket tpi base isn't good? I mean it's no mini ram, no HSR, or anything like that, but I've read here on several posts, that it can be made to work well. Is it an out of the box perfect solution, no. Absolutely not.

I've seen those aftermarket tpi bases and runners go for 350-400 used. Not too bad when there are reputable porting services that will open it up a bit for a couple hundred more. Hell, there was one set on the Atlanta CLIST, that was 350 for a vortec pattern base and the accel runners a few months back.

The man wanted options and price seemed to be a major factor. I'm talking used parts. For New, he could have A HSR with injectors for only 100 or 200 more than the NEW aftermarket TPI set. EVERYONE knows that.
Besides, if he's looking to buy a complete engine, on the cheap that you can swap, the truck engines with the vortecs aren't a bad place to start.

The reason I did not suggest the HSR, is the requirement to buy rails, fab the fuel lines, and run an aftermarket AFPR. That kind of stuff adds up.

I was just giving bottom dollar options that I've seen.

bryan623

I am looking for options. And I would be willing to try something different. I just don't really want anything to over the top. Stock the car was what? 250ish hp right? 300hp would be perfectly fine for me. Heck 350hp is still okay so long as I am not spending an arm and a leg getting it. I am factoring around $3500 for a budget for work on the motor. I figure this would still be the cost if I even had the original pulled and rebuilt. So if I can squeeze in parts like cams, rockers, springs and other do dads into that range I am more than willing to give it a try. I did want to try to keep the original TPI as I didn't really want to change a lot around and have to rework the fuel and computer systems. I guess I was looking for more 'bolt on' type of gains. But if ditching it does benefit in the long run I guess I can look into it.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Here's an option:
$2050 - L31 crate engine
Cam upgrade + head/spring work to handle the larger cam:
$230-ish for LT4 HOT cam or equivalent
$35 for valve seals
$32 for +0.050 locks
$50 for ARP screw in rocker studs... I recommend adding guide plates and using non-self-aligning rocker arms.
$60 for LS1 beehive springs, or $180 for Comp beehive springs
$52 for beehive retainers
add your preferred head gasket.
$400... And, of course, the SDPC Vortec-TPI manifold base. The SDPC link shows it available, although that may not be the case. Or $535 at FastModz, which is the only other place an easy Google search turned up as selling. I have no experience, so buyer beware.

So, not cheap. With a little machine work for the rocker studs and seals, this becomes a drop-in, bolt-in solution. For best performance, you should also get the chip re-tuned for the change in heads and cam.

Note: the factory oil cooler does not fit with the crank sensor boss on the Vortec timing cover.
ETA: Add $10 for thread sealant since the screw-in rocket studs hit the intake ports.

bryan623

If the oil cooler doesnt fit do you just remove it all together?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes you can do that.

A tiny blip on the radar in the grand scheme.

Take Joe's list up there and add up all the might-as-wells that go with an engine swap... belts, hoses, sensors, tune-up parts, injectors, .... it really starts to add up.

Then factor in labor, tuning, and so on.

Keep in mind that the title of this thread is

and not "Thinking of rebuilding my L98".

Then look at the payoff: VIRTUALLY EVERY person on this board that has put the Vortec heads/base thing in their car, has been disappointed. ESPECIALLY with stock runners. Even aftermarket runners don't help all that much.

Just not a particularly effective use of $$$$$.

Picking that stuff up used, which ALMOST INVARIABLY means from someone that was already disappointed by it, might help lower the price; but about quadruples the whole hassle factor. All it takes is ONE LITTLE PIECE somewhere being misplaced, kept by the PO, damaged, used up, stripped threads, or whatever; and you end up with a basket of parts with cool-sounding names that you can't use.

I cannot in good conscience recommend to someone with little enough experience that they have to ask, that they do a thing like that. Especially when right up front, it was stated

So in the end, what you need to keep focused on, is not so much what's "better" according to whoever's definition of that; it's a matter of SUITABILITY FOR PURPOSE.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

If it were me and I was paying for the pull/install I would find a shop that does the machining as well. It's much harder for a shop to charge again for the pull/install if they did the work on the engine. Also, a simple swap of the original engine makes it simpler and faster for the shop ...which also benefits you since they don't have to adapt anything. No waiting on parts or fabrication etc. You will also have more control on what is done, the quality, and with a decent re-builder, you will know why. Learning on here and researching will help when you do talk to a builder and whether you're being BS'd or not.

Shopping around for a shop that has a history of standing behind their work and/or doesn't delay once they get your money is pretty important imo. Local forums and/or FB clubs will rouse all of the places to avoid, but look for the places that made it right when things went wrong instead of focusing on the negatives and/or friends recommending their buddies. Sad to say sometimes the shop knowing there are more people that know the work is being done sometimes influences how well things go if something does go wrong, or they become swamped and face deciding whether to put yours on the back burner. Time of year can also make a difference on how busy they are. Also look more at the person doing the actual work vs. the brick & mortar name on the building. Talk to the person doing the actual work and know their reputation as a builder.

I suppose the above is a bit involved too, but if you're not pulling the engine you are facing the same situation either way. You're taking the luxury route and should try to get the most benefit from it imo. It should be a fun experience and you should learn from the builders too as they walk you through it. I've been on a few tours of shops which made it more interesting as well. IMO, it should help you sell the car too if you have the original engine and a local build sheet from a reputable builder. I would also think more pride and/or story behind it if talking about the car to someone or at a show etc.