razor

Willie I know you have a very good grasp on Camaro and convertibles in the late 80's. What can you tell me for sure on Firebirds? I understand ASC converted cars for Pontiac from both Van Nuys (ASC had the satelite shop at City of Industry Assembly) and earlier from Norwood (ASC conversions done in Livonia Assembly plant). As far as I know Firebirds did not use the number 3 in the 6th posistion of the VIN. I am led to believe they had no RPO code for convertible as well. All cars sourced through PHS will appear to be t-top cars. ASC states they converted cars for Pontiac. PHS states no factory authorized verts until 1991. Do you know of any way to "authenticate" whether the car was selected by Pontiac to be a 'vert ??? How can one tell if Pontiac (or even the dealer) authorized the conversion or wether the customer simply took the car to ASC themselves? ASC has given me exact numbers on both Camaro and Firebird conversion numbers per year but what do the numbers mean if you can't tell an autorized conversion from a conversion by Joe Schmoe??? Any help or info would be appreciated.

pgh-gta

Hey Razor, I would like to know as well. I am trying to locate info on the same thing. I own an '87 GTA vert. I am the original owner and ordered the car myself in Feb. '87 and didn't get it till Aug. '87. The car was converted by ASC. My understanding of the process was that it was built in then sent to ASC for the conversion.

I have had many conversations with Pontiac and ASC but the problem is that it has been so long and no one keeps records over 7 years, or so they say, or maybe they don't want to dig for it.

What I have been told is that ASC was a GM authorized conversion on the Firebird as well. ASC also states that the only way to get the conversion was through the factory. Any Joe Schmoe couldn't just take their car to ASC for the job themselves. Also, to this day, you can only get the parts for the convertible through GM, not directly from ASC. Also, the car was covered under the factory warranty. If it was not an authorized conversion, I'm sure the warranty would have been voided.

As far as the RPO code. Pontiac said they designated the Y81 convenience package to designate their convertible conversion. That is directly from Pontiac. Wether that is correct is not known.

razor

Y81 is the code that Pontiac uesd on 'verts??? I have never heard that before. If I look up Y81 it is classified as a Firebird Merchandising Option. Does this specifically mean a vert conversion or would it be applied to other things used to market and sell the car? Are there any Firebird owners out there that have a Y81 RPO on their SPI label that do not have the vert??? I would really like a few Firebird guys to check RPO's and tell me if they have Y81 on their cars or not.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

I'm really sorry guys. I'll be the first to admit I do not know Firebirds. I could use my knowledge of Camaros and take educated guesses, but that's how mis-information usually starts. Therefore, I will leave this topic to someone who really knows and can somehow verify their information.

This is a good issue to discuss and someone out there must know the answers. Unfortunately, it's not me.

razor

....hey Willie would you know of anyone, or could you push me in the direction of someone who may be able to shed some light on the subject??? Pontiac has not been very forthcoming on how to authenticate them. If you know of anyone in the industry who may take the time to talk about it, could you throw me a bone on this one???? Thanks!


Also I know I asked this already out of the corner of my mouth but could some Firebird owners check thier RPO codes and let me know if they have the Y81 option even though they do not have a 'vert.I doubt that it will be this simple to confirm a factory Firebird 'vert from this RPO but
I am very curious to see some responses. It might just suprise me.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

Razor,

Let me think about this one. I really had no ONE person tell me everything while researching convertibles.

BTW, I e-mailed a buddy of mine to post his answer here. He owns a '91 TA convertible with a 305 TPI and 5-speed!!

Willie

razor

Willie starting in 1991 did Pontiac start using the VIN to verify the conversion the same way Camaro did from 1986 or 1987???? And why did Pontiac not do this from 1986 thru 1990?? It just would have seemed so logical to use the same way on both Camaro and Firebord as they were popped out of the same plant and taken to the same ASC assembly line.

Guest

Havent you checked your RPO's yet? Mine does not have that RPO. GM usually puts RPO numbers in a series where there is some sort of rhyme and reason to it, like the WS RPO's on Firebirds deal with the suspension. I tend to believe Y81 is not correct.

Also, this is what happens over time is stories get twisted around. I'd hope you can verify one of these since you are the original owner of an 87 model... The dealership I spoke with in 1989 specifically told me the body was no longer warranted by GM due to the conversion. Can you refute that through your personal experience? Also, that is 100% not true that any Joe Schmoe couldnt just go to ASC and have a car converted. I was looking into this in 1989, and all ASC wanted was money and a T-top car. They didnt even care what year it was as long as it was a thirdgen. I had everything in place except enough money to convert my 85 and thats the only thing that prevented me from doing it.

Guest

Yea, starting in 91 they did change the VIN to reflect the car being a convertible.

razor

So do any owners of Firebirds from 1986 to 1990 have the Y81 RPO on thier cars. Does anyone own an unmolested original Firebird with this code so that it might give a person any idea what the Y81 reflects??? I checked both my vehicles and niether had Y81 but both of mine are GTA's and not Firebirds. I would like to see what kind of car that the Y81 was used on. Please post any info.

pgh-gta

That is my point exactly Razor. There are so many pre '91 GTA owners out there but have heard from no one with the Y81 option on their code sheets. I have been in contact with 2 pre '91 vert owners from another board and have asked them to either look at their window sticker or their RPO sheet in the glove box. Unfortunatley, like have stated in other posts, my RPO code list was thrown away years ago. I didn't realize it was the only list of codes in the car.

I didn't just pull this Y81 code thing out of the air. This came directly from Pontiac at 1-800-762-2737. It will take a few days for them to locate the answer for anyone who calls since all this info is stored away. They only keep 7 years worth of info at their disposal. I will post if I hear from the other guys regarding the code.

Guest

Well since you both missed it, my 89 GTA convertible doesnt have Y81 on the RPO sheet. I also know it was sent from Van Nuys to ASC then to Fort Worth, Texas.

I dont think you pulled the Y81 out of the air either, but after 13+ years I question the accuracy of the information given, especially by such a large corporation as GM. If other people with convertibles can verify this then fine, but it seems unlikely to me especially given that I own one and its as close as I have seen to a factory authorized convertible pre-91 and everything falls into place from what I know, except there is no Y81 on the RPO list. I'll also tell you I've known since 1989 they made Firebird convertibles of different sorts (I drove one and saw many more) and I spent the better part of 2 years trying to convince many an 'expert' from this board that they did in fact exist.

Just as an example about GM and not knowing what they did or did not do, my dads cousin and a friend of my dads both owned early 60's Pontiac station wagons with 421 tri powers and AC and a 4 speed manual tranny. GM and Pontiac said they never built any, even to this day. So do numerous 'experts'. Both of these people have the window sticker and build sheet to prove otherwise. One even has the order sheet. The best thing you can do to verify if Y81 is meaningful or not is find as many convertibles as you can and try to verify it. As a guess, I think you'll find it wont be there. Oh, you might try contacting GM and PHS (and maybe the dealer the car was purchased from, if they still exist) about your car and the RPO list. I got one for my 86 TA from GM in 95, so maybe you'll get lucky.

razor

....Max I never really missed it, you just never stated you owned a 1989 GTA 'vert minus the Y81, all you said is yours never had it. I just did not know what year make and model "yours" was refering to. But the insight is good. I know this has been a topic that just never seems to get cleared up. And I agree that with so much time gone by its becoming even harder to find anyone to talk to that was involved or who can atleast give a person an answer thats correct, not just something they "think" is right. I do not own a 'vert, I would just like to find out if there was anything that Pontiac did that could authenticate these cars from others converted by a private individuals. Any thoughts or ideas on the topic are good, atleast this way people can refute or verify some of the garbage that floats out of peoples mouths on this issue. I was not suprised to see you did not have Y81 on your SPI though. That is something that would have been found out long before now. But who knows, if some more people who own these cars can give some info maybe some light can be shed on the subject.

Guest

Yea the pre-91 Firebird convertibles are a huge gray area. I had never heard of any as being factory authorized until sometime in the mid 90's, I almost got the impression GM changed their tune. The incorrect VIN number (comes up as a coupe) on every one I have seen or verified so far doesnt lead me to believe GM authorized them in the first place. I happen to know someone that worked at the Van Nuys plant (not a line worker either) who said he had heard about the cars (referring to the 89 convertibles) but didnt seem to have any direct knowledge of them. I found this a little... odd. I know he is really a Camaro guy at heart, but he did work at the plant and has been a member of POCI (Pontiac-Oakland Club) for almost as long as it has existed. I have kinda prodded him to see if he can find anything out, but that'll take time and patience I know.

It would be nice to authenticate the car if at all possible, but to me thats just another piece of paper. I love the car. It has a factory installed 350 (no monkey hack job here) and the factory authorized convertible top parts, not to mention the conversion was done by the same people authorized to do Camaros. Its fun to drive, is pretty quick, IMO looks better than the 91-92 (I hate the later gfx), and its MINE! That to me is more important, the car isnt some hack job like some cars I have seen and its a blast to drive. Thats what I bought it for, to enjoy it.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I've always carried the belief that the pre 91 cars were all dealer conversions, or at least converted at some point after leaving the factory. I don't believe that there was not a "factory" firebird 'vert until 91. I really feel that any pre-91 firebird 'vert is really no different or significant than a pre-87 Camaro 'vert.

pgh-gta

Sorry if this thread is long but there is quite a bit of info that needs to get out. Due to some of the comments along this thread I have now spent 3 days talking to many people at ASC corporate in Michigan, specifically to Rod Edie by email. Rod states that no conversions were ever done for dealers. In fact, the only way the ASC Incorporated works is a business to business relationship. This means that no-one and I repeat no-one can ever or could ever take a coupe or t-top anything, not just f-body, to them for a conversion. Some people claim to have called ASC themselves and tried to set something up or that they just call and ask if they can do the conversion for them and they are told "absolutely". This is very incorrect. Don't just call a satellite shop. Call corporate and talk to someone who knows. In fact, only recently, ASC has teamed up with a subsidiary called Inalfa. This company does deal with the public, but only on the level of sunroofs. I am waiting to hear from a couple more people there on some further questions. I do realize that since the Firebird does not have a discernable RPO code does raise questions it still doesn't dispute the fact that is was a GM authorized cut. I never claimed that this was a Pontiac job. I know that it has always been an aftermarket job, just that it was authorized. It just makes sense, if you really think about it. Why would GM authorize the Camaro and not the Firebird. Rediculous. I was also asked by Madmax for personal experience. I can assure you my extended 3/36000 warranty was honored by GM. Not ASC or Courtesy Pontiac in Florida. That alone would tell you it was an authorized job. Like I said, ASC doesn't work with the public. Madmax, you better hold on to your GTA. Just the fact that it is an ASC conversion makes it legit. In fact I have the exact grouping of production numbers from '87 thru '90. These cannot be disputed, this is directly from Ron Edie who was involved in the GM process during these years. They are as follows:

1987 All Firebirds 173 All Camaros 955
1988 All Firebirds 104 All Camaros 4605
1989 All Firebirds 330 All Camaros 6473
1990 All Firebirds ? All Camaros 5394

I went to Nadaguides like Willie suggested and saw the value for his car. That is fantastic. But, by the production numbers if the Camaro is valued that highly then the Firebird should blow it away since so few were produced in comparison.

One question that still remains in my mind and am trying to resolve is how the car coming off the line was designated to be sent to ASC for the conversion. If I were to guess and this is purely a guess so don't bash me with hate mail. In my case the car was a special order. Maybe something as simple as something stuck to the windshield or attached to the paperwork of the car ( I don't understand the building process so once again don't bash me) as it came of the line designated it to be shipped to ASC instead of to the dealer. And maybe the fact that so little were produced maybe they just chose cars out of the line at random to be sent there also. I will post an answer if I find one.

Just to reiterate, Madmax don't ever let that car go. And to all the naysayers out there, pick up the phone yourself and call the right people and you'll get the same answers. Guaranteed.

Guest

Interesting info. I have seen a number in the 370 area thrown around for 1989. Rumor has it that 50 were 350 cars, which I question. Something else I'd like to point out on the authorized/non-authorized front and dealer cant send one in and order one deal... so far the Camaros I have seen do not have the strap bars for the T-tops on the back panel of the car, but mine does. 3 other GTA convertibles I have seen have the same thing. It would make sense that since they were being sent to be chopped, those parts would not be installed as they were not necessary.

Thanks for the info on the warranty. That is very good info.