Thunder1973

Hi everyone-

I haven't posted here a lot, but I've read a lot and this forum has helped me out quite a bit with the two T/A's I'm working on with my father (both cars are his, an 82 and an 83).

Well, since then I've gotten the bug to find one of my own, so I found (locally) a 1985 Iroc-Z for sale with 28,000 original miles, owner has all the documentation to prove it. It's white, has the T-roof, 305/auto, all the typical IROC stuff you see. One thing that caught my attention is that this car is completely original and unmolested.....original radio, tape player, exhaust, you name it. Car is basically spotless and just they way it rolled out of the factory for the most part. I don't think it's an unusual IROC, I think it's probably one of many and there's nothing special about this car as far as options or equipment.

The guy is looking for $4500 for the car. He originally had been asking $7500 but nobody was interested. He keeps lowering the price and now he's at the $4500 mark. I could possibly get the car for around $4K, he seems like he's getting desperate to sell.

Is $4-4,500 in the asking range for a clean IROC like this? I only ask because the two Firebirds I'm working on came at far less than half that price....for the pair...although one needs complete restoration (in the process) and the other came with a perfect body and no drivetrain.....

scottmoyer

I was going to say about $10k with the miles and amount of documentation. I'd say grab it up. If you don't, let me know where it is so I can get it. Thanks

Jason E

If its a TPI car, $10,000 is pretty accurate. I'd grab it.

Thunder1973

It's not a TPI car, it's a 305 TBI car and I think it's a 700-R4 trans.

I originally set my sights on a Z-28 or IROC with a 5 speed, but from what I read the IROC wasn't available with a stick until 87.

In the same town there is an 87 IROC TPI/auto car, not showroom and not as nice as this one, but very very decent for $3500.

Both cars have been for sale for a while now, the owner of the white 85 keeps renewing his posting on Craigslist almost every day.

Where I live the economy has hit hard. The guy with the 85 claims he's moving and doesn't want to take the car with him, he tried trading it at a car dealership toward a new car but they dealer wouldn't give him much. He wouldn't say how much is "not much", but I'm guessing there's some room to move on this car considering he's already dropped it $3K.

scottmoyer

I just assumed TPI. I need to stop doing that!!!

The car is still a great buy at $4-$5k with those miles. Buy it and keep it as long as you can. If the LG4/auto doesn't satisfy your need for speed, then continue looking for another one, but this is a steal at the price mentioned.

Thunder1973

Thanks, Scott!!!

I'm not looking for a race car, mostly I'm looking for a clean, decent car to drive to local shows and take the kids out for ice cream on nice days. It' won't be a daily driver, more of a toy, so I don't see the mileage going up too fast if I wind up buying it. I have a heated, climate controlled garage so it would stay in nice shape.

Oddly enough, my first car was a white 2G Z-28 I bought about 25 years ago. It almost seems like destiny that I would be looking at another white Camaro.

Well, sooner or later I guess.....

Drew

iTrader: (58)

1985 + TBI = a divide by zero error.

1985 you could get a 305 TPI or a 305 4bbl, but no TBI until 1988.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Where do you live?


That first one sounds like a good deal, but an LG4/700R4 is definitely a leisure cruiser.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

TPI wasn't available with a stick until '87, but you could get a stick in an IROC before that. '85 LG4 or L69 5 speed, '86 LG4 5 speed.

Thunder1973

The car is injected, so then I assume it must be a TPI then?

I havent' seen the actual car yet, it's one I found on CL about 3 towns away from me, the owner sent me about 15 hi-res detailed pictures from every angle including underneath. He told me it was not a carb model, so I assumed TBI thinking that the TPI was a 350 option only in later years.....

The more I read, the more I see that there are so many engine/trans combinations for these cars that didn't exist when I had my old 2G Camaro.

I'm supposed to go see the car on saturday and was planning on bringing cash with me if it's as nice as the pictures show. That's why I'm asking now, I don't want to go and offer too much but I don't want to offer too little, either. So from what I am getting, if this car is that good and it's a TPI it's worth every bit of what he's asking.

Thanks, Drew!

Thunder1973

Central Massachusetts, just outside of Worcester.

naf

iTrader: (7)

TPI would have an 'F' in the eighth VIN digit. LG4=H, L69=G.

My preference in 85 would be the L69 with the dual snorkle intake and the performance ratio rear end and T5.

Thunder1973

Where I live in New England, there's not as many of these cars around as there would be down south. Many have just rotted away. I originally set out to find another 2G Camaro because I could realistically tear it down to every nut and bolt, but there just aren't too many that don't have some sort of major rot problem (I know all the areas to look on those), so I started looking at 3G cars after working on the two T/A's because any of the 2G's that were really good cars were $10K+ around here, and that's not what I'm looking to spend, and 3G's are better in many ways compared to the 2G's and they are affordable. I want to stay under $5K. I'm mostly concerned about a clean, straight body, drivetrain is not overly important to me as long as it's a V-8 and not a 6. I can do engines and mechanical, but my bodywork is probably comparable to a first grader.

Even looking at 3G's, there aren't as many around here as you might think. Actually, the market is flooded with 4G cars which seem to be selling for the same money as 3G cars, but I just can't get into the body style compared to the 3G.

scottmoyer

Now that you've announced where the car is, you better take cash today!!! If the car is a TPI car, which you say it might be, it's definately worth closer to the $10k I initially mentioned. If he's selling this for $4k-$5k, you better move or it will be gone to someone else on here. The fact that he hasn't been able to sell such a low mile car for even $7k or $8k has me wondering what he's not telling you. Be careful as these cars only have a 5 digit odometer and could easily have rolled over 100k. You would definitely be able to tell a car with 28k vs 128k. The dash could also have been swapped out. The computers on these cars did not store the mileage, so check closely for 28k. I wouldn't put it past some people to swap instrument clusters.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Like Scott said, make sure that the car is legit - it almost sounds too good. If it all checks out, pay the guy and grab it! Don't forget to post pics.

ironjet

is it odd one of the ads for the car says selling due to moving and another says selling due to buying a new car? ....
im sure im just too skeptical of craigslist ads
good luck though sounds/looks like a nice car

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Beware of the Craigslist scammers. If things become fishy when you ask to come see the car, walk away. TPI, Carb, etc doesn't really matter. $5k is a fair price for a driver grade Thirdgen in nice cosmetic shape. If anything it's probably worth more then the asking price, if it's in the condition that you are suggesting.

That said pics can hide a lot, and it's not the seller's job to point out every flaw. Use your own best judgement.

Thunder1973

You found the ad.....

Got an e-mail from the guy, calling him in the next hour or so.

Yes, I also have a feeling there's something he's not saying.

My understanding is that he's in the 4500 range even though it's listed at 4900

Thunder1973

Okay, just talked to the guy on the phone. Car is not "original". Has been repainted original color and correct decals put on. He is the second owner, bought it with 25K on it. All documentation supports 28K original miles as far as he knows. He has a Carfax report for it. It is a TPI 305/auto, not the carb model. Seemed like a real nice guy on the phone, somebody you could deal with. His final statement was "cash talks".

I can see the car anytime, going either today or tomorrow, he told me how it's accessible to see. Had one guy already tell him he'd buy it, but when the buyer wanted to leave a $20 deposit, the deal fell apart.

He told me if I liked the car, make a realistic offer.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Focus on the condition, not the price. $500 here or there really doesn't matter if the car is what he says it is. However, a repaint with 25,000 miles? Take care of a thirdgen, and a repaint at 125,000 miles would make it look damn near new. Even if it's 128k miles, the car is still worth the asking price. The price is the least of your worries, just pay attention to the details and you won't get taken.

ironjet

yeah , there was a low mile white iroc listed in new york a few weeks ago for a crazy low price , just wanted to see it was the same one .

Jason E

I don't see this being odd at all...my own garage has 2 third gens with 33k miles or less with full resprays

Better move on this one quick...I live no more than 45 minutes from this car If you don't take it, I will find someone that will....sadly, I'm out

Thunder1973

Going to see it right now!!!!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I'm assuming you're joking. Late 80's GM paint wasn't known for being that great, but it shouldn't fail on a well kept car within the first 25k miles.

Fresh paint can hide a multitude of sins. Ranging from collision damage, and owner abuse, to a quickie restoration to make a ratty car look fresh.

Thunder1973

If somebody wants this car, lord bless 'em.

It is an F code car. The interior is consistent with a 26 year old car with 30K. Good shape, no tears/rips, trim is all there and in good shape, carpets are clean.

Outside of the car.........ummmm.......?????

The car is white. But it wasn't always. This is at least the second repaint of this car. Under the white (which is thin/see thru in places) is that darker blue color that those cars came in. But I don't think that's the original paint either.....the lenses are speckled with blue paint and there's a lot of blue overspray on the plastic. The white paint on it now looks like a garage paint job, full of dust and sags with the sanding marks easily visible through the paint, possbily the second refinish of this quality. The IROC decals are correct......mostly because they're the originals and were masked off for both paint jobs. The headlight trim and hood louvers are black but were rattle-can painted. This leads me to believe either the car is 1; much higher mileage OR 2; crashed at one point and cheaply repaired. In addition, there is a gap in the left rear wheelhouse which doesn't seem like it should be there, and the right rear frame rail has severe pitting near the gas tank.

Too many red flags. Honestly, to me it seems like a $2500 car.

All I know is that car is not the one for me.

Thank you all for the input, it's greatly appreciated, you guys are the best when it comes to these things.

In the meantime....stil on the hunt for a clean 3G.........

ironjet

cant see that in the pictures !

Jason E

Maybe its because seeking collision damage and looking for "the real story" on a car is part of my daily job...full resprays on these cars with low mileage don't worry me IF the jambs are clean, all the body lines line up properly, and nothing else appears fishy.

In one case, my 86 TA documented on here, simply sat outside and the paint got wrecked. The car itself is beautiful (as anyone here who's seen it can attest) and the interior still shows as any 30k mile third gen would, despite the fact that it sat outside long enough to wreck the paint.

As for my 88 TA, its hard to say what/why it was repainted. Based on the drive, interior condition and general overall condition, I believe the miles to be accurate. Everything from the way the doors shut, wear on the pedal pads, white markings on the cruise/PW/PL switches tells me the 27k on the odometer is accurate. However, it clearly had a full respray at some point before 24k miles, which is when the previous owner bought it (she didn't paint it).

I can imagine it was because of bad clear...chipping paint...who knows. Everything lines up, and there is no sign of accident damage, so I don't consider it to be a red flag. My original third gen, my mom's '89 RS, was a full respray under factory warranty!

So, there I have it...3 out of 4 low-mileage third gens I've owned have had a full respray...none of which was due to vandalism/abuse/accident damage.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

I've seen pics of your Trans Am and the interior looks like it's suffered from UV exposure. The cloth on the drivers seat is visibly faded and damaged from exposure. The paint looks good, but the details give away the abuse of being stored outside. Like it or not, park it next to a truly well kept car with the same mileage and it's not hard to pick up the differences.

89RESTO

iTrader: (5)

I've seen Jason's car up close and personal and the interior is consistent with a low mileage car. My 85 IROC with 25,000 miles spends 99% of it's time in the garage under a car cover and still has faded material on the top of the back seat. His car was parked next to mine and I didn't notice any difference.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Notice the visible stitching, bleached white by the sun. Note also the faded Pallex, and what appears to be a bald spot just below the rear of the headrest. While it's not unusual, it's more in line with a higher mileage car. I've seen plenty that had 3 times as much mileage and weren't as weathered.

The point isn't to nitpick, but to point out that a repaint on a low mileage car is a red flag. If Jason's car were to change hands a few times, and the bit of history about it sitting outside were forgotten, the repaint could be the indicator to previous neglect.

Jason E

There were definitely some signs of aging inside, moreso before than now. The leather wrapping on the wheel was delaminating from the core of the wheel due to heavy sun exposure. The top of the back seat was bleached a bit, with a few splits in the top of it. Both of these issues have been rectified...newly re-wrapped wheel, splits were repaired.

About the only way to tell it now from a truly "bleached out" car inside is that the top of the rear seat remains silver, versus the medium grey of the rest of the interior. The rest of it is surprisingly nice considering the fact it was outside...the dash isn't cracked, the carpet isn't faded in the least (amazing, considering how much these carpets fade), and the headliner isn't drooping at all. I personally feel/felt the seats are in great shape. Indeed, there probably is a little bit of fade, more noticeable to the grey than the black bolsters (evident when you compare an un-exposed portion of fabric, like under the headrest, to exposed fabric). However, even that isn't really noticeable, and as Mark said, even beautiful garaged cars like his still get fade.

Not trying to unduly defend my car...considering what its been through, I am extremely pleased with how nice it is inside. I'm sure next to a near-zero-mile equivalent, there will be signs of fade...but it isn't really evident standing on its own.

Jason E

1) For the hell of it, when its better weather out I'm going to take some better pics of the inside with a better camera. Taken with my camera phone, every pic I took that day looks a little pale. I just pulled that pic up on my computer here as I was typing my previous post, and commented how the interior looks more bleached in that photo than when I was outside working on it 20 minutes ago

2) Interesting you note the bald spot...I don't know WHAT that is. Just went outside to snap some pics. As I said in #1, that camera phone isn't the best, because there is NO hole in that seat

I took another one of the seat just to show its pretty good...indeed the stitching is a bit bleached. I wonder if I could dye it...

Jason E

And oh yeah, in case anyone is wondering why the carpet is peeled back, apparently my new windshield didn't 100% solve my water leak. I was not surpised to see that after 48 hours in nothing but driving rain on the way to OH and back (especially on the way back...we open trailered it through all the rain that flooded PA), it got a little damp under the driver's floor.

Gotta dry it out, then test for leaks, fix it and Febreeze it The joys of old car ownership...just finished an injector and intake gasket swap on the IROC Sunday night, now this. I miss back when these were new cars!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Idk, maybe. A black Sharpie would probably darken the light spots, but it might look a little purple.

I had a set of those same seats, that had the same problem (thinning Pallex), and the stitching was faded. But then they came out of a car with 120k miles, which had been sitting in a yard for awhile with no t-tops. I've seen plenty of cars with 75-120k miles that didn't exhibit that problem. Again I'm getting at what we've discussed before. An odometer doesn't count the hours a car sits in the elements, it doesn't record a previous owner leaving the windows down all summer, or accidents, etc. It's also subject to tampering, customization, and non-spec wheels/tires, all of which can lead to false mileage.

Jason E

The reason I went for this particular car was because after trying to make my 120k mile '91 RS look and feel like new, I was failing miserably. After spending in excess of $11,000restoring it (lets ignore $4,000 in mods, shall we???), and still needing to rebuild the front end, replace all the bushings, replace the springs, do something with the weathered leather seats, repad the sagging foam in the seats, and plenty more, I just gave up and swore I would never do a high mileage car again. It shook, rattled and rolled down the street, despite attempts to tighten things up with SFCs and an STB.

Driving this car is a revelation. For a total investment of $8,500, it has a paint job that far exceeds OEM standards, everything works (half the bulbs in the RS dash didn't even light up when I got it, nor did the dimmer switch/window motors/door lock motors work) like brand new, the seats feel like new and are comfortable, the carpet and headliner are perfect, and it drives like new without ONE rattle. Even the original shocks and struts give a nice smooth ride, and handle well.

Better car, better driving experience, for less money. I know we will always differ on this, but low mileage really matters to me. All 3 I have now drive and feel FAR better than the RS that had 4x the mileage on the clock. I also ended up having more money in that RS than any of the other 3, and the other 3 are all worth more.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, and steal a thread Sharpie isn't a bad idea...I agree on the purple thing, though...

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Truth told, to fix it correctly you'll want to reupholster at least that panel of the cover. Just bear in mind if they other panels are faded, they'll be more visible next to fresh cloth.

I have no reason to doubt that your RS drove like a dumptruck compared to the cars you have now. But I doubt that the mileage had all that much to do with it. There are a lot of cars out there with low mileage that also carry salvaged titles, or were driven by previous owners that thought they were one of the Duke boys or The Bandit. Low mileage alone doesn't mean a damn thing. Meanwhile, high mileage doesn't mean a car is trashed either. It's possible to have a car with more miles in better condition than another with fewer miles.

Jason E

1) I agree that to do it right, a new panel needs to be sewn in, which probably wouldn't look the best. At least with it being a side bolster, you may not notice the color difference vs. the front of the seat. The problem is, I went through this already and NO ONE, at least that I could find in New England, knows where to find this particular color of Pallex. I already went through this over the top of the rear seat...that's why I had the splits repaired, vs. replacing the cloth. You can't tell it was re-sewn anyways unless you stare at it closely. I refuse to spend the $$$ to re-do all 4 seats (Hawks has the kit, for $400+, then add labor) when so much of the original cloth is still in very nice shape. I have no staining, tears or anything else...just a little bit of light fade. Interestingly, the passenger's front seat does not show the stitching being white...must be the way the car was parked.

2) I will wholeheartedly agree mileage is not, and should never be, the only determinant when considering a vehicle. When I sold my '89 RS in '02, with 96k miles on it, it was in way better shape than my '91 was, 4 years later with only 11k more miles on it. My '89 was a diamond...but it still squeaked, still had some rattles, still had some seat sag and had a lot more looseness in things like windows, hinges etc.

With that said, 100k mile diamonds are definitely out there...they simply seem to be harder to find than low mileage diamonds.

Slater126

iTrader: (1)

About a year and a half ago, I posted about '85 IROC that allegedly had 47k miles on it, looked pretty good (not great but pretty good), and was selling for a high-ish but not ridiculous price. I thought it was a nice find until I noticed the double pointer speedo, LOL! Of course, GM stopped using that after '84, so you know someone changed it, most likely to lower the miles. So people definitely do this.