okfoz

There is much speculation to the fact that there were no L98 Firebirds with T-tops in 1987 & 1988. With all of the information I have ever seen Pontiac was not going to make the cars, even with letters from and to Frankie Rider from people who worked on the GTA project attest that the cars should never have been made if they were indeed made at all.

Here is the issue at hand. In 1987 when the L98 was introduced it is clear on the Order sheets that a GTA or Trans Am was NA with CC1, the cargo cover and the subwoofer control when ordered with the L98. This topic has probably been beated to death and arguments have flown to and fro about someone who knows someone who has one etc.

This past weekend I personally witnessed 2 GTA's BOTH were equipped with an L98, T-tops, subwoofer etc.... I thought WOW, this car should not exist, matter of fact I gave it a good once over to make sure it was what it was suposed to be. Without going through all of my thoughts while looking at the car I came to the conclusion that it was indeed Original.

In spite of the fact that RPO sheets can be reproduced, decals can be made, and VIN's can be changed there was something that stuck out, the car was sold in CANADA. As we have discussed before the T-top 350Firebirds in the US from 87 & 88 were not suposed to have been made, but no one has ever considered a Car ordered by someone in Canada. BOTH of the L98 CC1 loaded cars were from Canada, the first one had a Canadian decal on the door the second was owned by someone who lived in Canada.

Here is some info for you to chew on.

okfoz

I guess going with this, I know Scott has an 87 Camaro L98 T-top car, does your car have the Canadian decals?

John

FrankieRider2

Well, John, glad to see that somebody else has finally seen in person what I have and has documented it. That FRM GTA looks like my old buddy Brad Duff's '87 that I used to see up there in Dayton every year. His was always the only 1987 that always attended that had the Euro paddle mirrors. That was a nice GTA.

Never thought much about the "Canadian angle", though.... but that is interesting. Seems that maybe Canada did not have some of the restrictions that we had here in the US?

Looks like more digging is in order for some of us....

BTW, how was Dayton this year....?

RPM WOT L 98

iTrader: (3)

Hey John, were you at the Nats this weekend? I saw a Red Fomula Vert and was wondering if that was you but I never saw the owner.

John in RI

iTrader: (167)

I can clearly recall finding one of these on E-Bay a couple years ago and not bringing it up. The Body was 'puff', the interior was awesome, and the engine was blown. I didn't want to get beaten to death over it & at the time I had serious thoughts about buying the car,....... looking back that may be why I didn't raise a red flag and start yelling about it.


Since most people on tThird Gen know me as an "unbeliever",........ I'm sure I saw the option tag before I was ready to believe it for myself.


I should have save the pics of that tag !

okfoz

Dayton was Awesome this year. I had probably the best time I have had in a long time. My convertible really needs some work so I was not interested in really cleaning it up a whole lot. I Wheeled out the paint on Friday when I realized I was not going to get my Yellow 87 back together. So yes it was my car, I was given a heafty offer for the car and half of the people I talk to say I should have taken it the other half say the car is only going up in value. soooo....

As for the GTA's What I found really odd is the door jamb shows that the car was made for Canada by the decals. BUT the SPID sheet does not indicate the RPO for Canadian Export, unless I just did not find it. The RPO that shows up in my books is NM6 for Canada but the car has the Federal Emissions RPO.... go fig.

JOhn

RPM WOT L 98

iTrader: (3)

Ok, too bad we didn't run into each other. I didn't have my car thouh, some last minute plans fell through. But it was a great time anyway.

You know that there is a '89 Formula 350 Vert Bright Red on Autotrader right now with something like 12K miles.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

And the SPID lower ID as to what it is and to not remove is written in French but you're right about the US Federal emissions code(NA5)and not NM6 for Canadian emission.But the 8NM and 9NM at the end of the last line are those paint/interior codes?Because the NM8 is an emissions export code(this maybe a stretch and it's also from the '82-'88 Camaro parts catalog).

okfoz

There were several people there apparently I did not get a chance to talk to....

That Formula 350 vert on Autotrader is the lowest miles Formula 350 Vert that I know of. There is 4 cars that the last reading was in 1989 so the milage is way low...

Apparently he has some docs I am interested to see if I cant get a hold of a copy of those.

John

Mark_ZZ3

I've seen 350 t-top combos before ... but I live in Canada.

I have my dealer order sheets from 1989 which listed t-tops as available, however a later version showed them as available with the 305. I know when I ordered my 1989 Formula 350, T-tops were no longer an option, but were the year before.

The next time I see one, I'll have to take a closer look.

Mark.

TAdan

John I was wondering if that was your Vert! Too bad I missed you. The car looked really sharp.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

The 8 and 9 codes are rear springs. The code on the spring's label would be NNM. Front springs are the 6ZY and 7ZY, which on the spring's label would be BZY.

But even that's apparently different from the US's WS6 springs, which were BZX and NNL for most later years.

coolram62

iTrader: (2)

Thank you LAFireboyd for the info as they codes looked odd to me to be interior/exterior codes.Well at least I was half right in my thinking....LOL.Different codes for the same part just because they were for export.

razor

It was very common to see the L98/CC1 combo up here. I know a person in Manitoba that has an 88 Y84/L98/CC1/AA8...interesting car. I have owned a few CC1/L98 cars but they were all 89's though.

okfoz

Thanks, I really felt out of place up against all those nice perfect paint job cars.

1989 was really an odd year with the combo as there were ALOT of them made with T-tops and a 350. IIRC In that year the 350 actually outsold the LB9 305.

John

Klortho

Hey John, is this your car by chance?

okfoz

Sure is...

I wanted that pic thanks...

After I left the show I thought... gee that would have been pretty cool to have a pic of the Autoform next to the ASC car...


thanks

JOhn

FrankieRider2

If there's one thing they love in Dayton.... it's a perfect paint job. What always bothered me was the way the noses turn up at you when your car doesn't have one.... I'm hoping to make it back up there for '08 again.

BTW, John.... the Vert is looking good. Love that two-car shot!

Jay

iTrader: (2)

The different code is for a different spring rate, not an export code number. There are several different rate/RPO code springs for any given year.
Though it might have been optioned different, ie with the stiffer springs as a result of being an export.

okfoz

Usually the different springs are accounted for by the options that were offered on the car. For example a car with AC would have different front springs than one without AC. V6vs V8 vs LB9 vs 350 Vs LG4 etc Each component has a weight and they probably had a range of so many pounds that once it went above a particular number they would install a different spring. If you ever notice some publications have the weight of all of the options, The computer would calculate what spring it needed and thats what they would install. It goes with the fuel economy thing and the sun shade and the subwoofer controls...

JOhn

JOhn

GTA Jim

For some reason, my '90 GTA doesn't have the spring codes on the SPID sticker..

FWIW, I knew a guy who had a 1989 GTA with CC1 and L98 on his SPID sticker.. It was a Canadian car.. I've seen others too.. T-Top 350's were fairly common up to 1989, but they stopped making them in 1990.

The GTA Source page has a copy of an original bulletin that Pontiac sent to its dealers (not just Canadian dealers) telling them that the hatch roof will no longer be available with the 350 in 1990

http://www.gtasourcepage.com/Pontiac...0cdbs/90F2.jpg

okfoz

Actually there are a ton of 1989 350 powered cars with T-tops. I suspect that was the reason why the 350 had a huge jump in sales for 1989. I have never seen a post 1989 T-top 350 car except for a Formula 350 in 91 & 92, which many were made.

JOhn

Paigesdad

[QUOTE=okfoz;3446296]There is much speculation to the fact that there were no L98 Firebirds with T-tops in 1987 & 1988. With all of the information I have ever seen Pontiac was not going to make the cars, even with letters from and to Frankie Rider from people who worked on the GTA project attest that the cars should never have been made if they were indeed made at all.

Here is the issue at hand. In 1987 when the L98 was introduced it is clear on the Order sheets that a GTA or Trans Am was NA with CC1, the cargo cover and the subwoofer control when ordered with the L98. This topic has probably been beated to death and arguments have flown to and fro about someone who knows someone who has one etc.

This past weekend I personally witnessed 2 GTA's BOTH were equipped with an L98, T-tops, subwoofer etc.... I thought WOW, this car should not exist, matter of fact I gave it a good once over to make sure it was what it was suposed to be. Without going through all of my thoughts while looking at the car I came to the conclusion that it was indeed Original.

In spite of the fact that RPO sheets can be reproduced, decals can be made, and VIN's can be changed there was something that stuck out, the car was sold in CANADA. As we have discussed before the T-top 350Firebirds in the US from 87 & 88 were not suposed to have been made, but no one has ever considered a Car ordered by someone in Canada. BOTH of the L98 CC1 loaded cars were from Canada, the first one had a Canadian decal on the door the second was owned by someone who lived in Canada. [QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Make that 3 cars that were so equipped. My 87 GTA has the L98, T-tops, cargo cover and subwoofer. It too is a Canadian market car. Still has the "GM Canada. Official Sponsor of the XV Winter Olympic Games. Calgary 1988" sticker on the passenger side window. I guess I got pretty lucky when I found it? Especially with only 14,500 miles on it too.

Paigesdad

Just curious, I understand the T-tops but why the restriction on the subwoofer and cargo cover?

FrankieRider2

John, I talked with Lou Wassel yesterday about this deal.... and he told me that Canada was all the time doing "screwy things" with the equipment levels on cars coming up there during his tenure at Pontiac. He said at one time they were regularly sending cars up there with much-lower-than-normal content levels. He said that he knew of no special ordering system or order sheet for Canada, nor did he have any particular knowledge of the 350/T-top cars coming from there.

But in light of what we know about the US weight specs not allowing the options together on US GTAs, he said he would not be surprised to learn it was a "Canadian thing".

So you may very well be on to something....

okfoz

GM has a formula (not the firebird formula) that they would use to calculate the fuel economy of a car. Each item (or option) that is added to a car adds weight therefore it decreases the fuel economy. So they have a sheet with options and weights of those options when installed on a car when the fuel economy of a car goes below the 22.5 mpg threshold then they have to start removing options...

(Cars BASE weight + options)/(Engine economy)=MPG

If you notice starting in 1986 and thru 1989 the LB9 Engine with the "peanut" cam & A4 trans you could get some options that was NA on the L98 in the US... the big factor here is the Peanut cam it was an efficency cam so people who could not drive a M5 (which is more economical) could get a fully optioned car. In the end it had to do with avoiding the $1000 Gas guzzler (GG) charge. GM was very good at staying off the EPA's "GG" list. I am not sure if EVERY L98 car would have had to be assessed the GG charge or if all the GTA's or Trans Am's & 350 would have gotten the assessment or if those cars that went over the limit. I suspect if they were to have offered these options then all TA's & GTA's would have been assessed the GG fine when equiped with the 350.

John