five7kid

iTrader: (14)

This year Bandimere Speedway is having a "100 MPH Club" for street legal cars. Doesn't matter how or when you do it, it just has to be street legal and the timeslip (Bandimere) needs to say 100 MPH or better. Take your timeslip to the Tech Shack, they'll put you on the "list", and September 11th (coincidence, I'm sure) they'll have a run-off.

Problem is, I only run 97 MPH at altitude. It'll do 102-103 at sea level w/o a problem. Since the car otherwise does what I want it to, I don't want to spend a bunch of money on engine upgrades to get the power necessary to get over the hump at altitude.

So, what nitrous installation could be done in a temporary manner that I could "borrow", get my timeslip, then remove? I suppose a carb base unit would be the easiest. I figure if I hit it at 1000', that should do it. A few years ago, Mopar Muscle rented a Neon, poked nozzles through the air cleaner rubber hose, connected the solenoids to the horn button and got that puppy into the 13's before they let the editor give it a try and bent some valves when he over-rev'd it. But, I don't have a rubber air cleaner hose...

Tried a search on the Power Adder forum, didn't come up with anything, thought you guys would be more sympathetic...

P.S.: The "Club" will have different levels - if you get a 110-119 MPH slip, you'll be at the next level, 120-129, 130-139, etc. Each "level" will run off against each other. I asked if I needed to continue to run 100 MPH at the run-off, or just qualify during the season - I may have put an idea in their heads that I shouldn't have...

V6camaroman

change your gears. those 2.91's are killing you. try a set of 3:23's or 3:42's. try some different tire pressures, shift points etc. and also weight. take out as much useless crap you can. it looks like it runs pretty good for a 305 too. im in the middle of building mine right now

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

If its in the 57 then take off the front and rear bumpers. lol

A 75-100 shot should do it if you go that route. Are there anything that you could remove from the car and put back on to lose weight?

What about a few gallons of 110!!

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

have you considered that airfilter nitrous kit from N.O.S.? it's just a drop base filter base and it has a sileniod on it with a spray nozzle. a 50 shot will get you there. just run a rich tune ( i think it's a dry system). just an idea.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Hey five7-

When I was running consistant 110 mph passes, I ran a 100 shot right after I went into 3rd (just a bit before the 1000') just to try it out and the car went a little over 113 mph. It should be easier to pick up 3 mph going from 97 to 100 than from 110 to 113 too!

If you arent going to buy a kit, I would say beggers cant be choosers . I would go with a plate kit just because they are simple and they work well.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

In my experience, gears only affect ET, not MPH. (And, it's the '57 that most likely will get the shot, anyway... ) I've already been through all the tire pressure, empty trunk, back seat out, etc., stuff. A good tail wind would probably do more good.

However, I haven't yet tried taking the bumpers and fender liners off.

Although...

If I get the ZZ4 together, a bit of spray on it might get the Camaro in the necessary range. Hmmm....

How about this line at the speed shop counter: "How would you like your name associated for the 2005 season with the reigning division champion and national runner up?"

I'd forgotten about that one. Looks like it's a 150 system, with 100 & 150 jets.

AlkyIROC

A 50 hp shot should give you that 3 mph.

My truck normally runs about 87 mph. With a 150ish shot I've hit 102 or 103.

TTA850

When I went from 3.08's to 3.42's last year the car went from a best pumpgas run of 11.46@116 to 11.20@120 with no other changes(havent tried racegas yet to see if it picks up there too). I think gears would get ya there but then again a small shot is the easy way out for just 3mph. When my GTA was an L98 I went from 98mph to 105mph with an old fogger nozzle in front of the throttle body(in the rubber elbow)and some jets that were supposed to be 100hp.

HTH,
Steve

blacksheep-1

Dry Ice on the intake, and freeze your gas prior to the run. You can also take the air cleaner and "soak" it in N20 just prior to the run, that should do it.

jms

iTrader: (1)

May not help a bunch but try blocking off the grill opening. That big 'ol opening has to be catching some serious air at 100 mph.

You can cut some tin or aluminum to shape and "wire-tie" it in place to the back side of the mesh in the grill.

Or even clear plexiglas.

You may want a few small holes for engine cooling.

Just a thought.

jms

Jason Dammen

Save yourself some work..... Contact your local race fuel dealer (or hobby shop) and get a gallon of Nitro Methane. Dont get real crazy with the mixture (that could be hard on parts). They say that with just a 5% mixture you can hear a differance in the engine. Not sure if this is a good idea with a cast piston though if thats what you have, so you might want to think twice about it.
Good Luck
Jason

IHI

iTrader: (1)

With the 2.9? gears are you even hitting 3rd gear? Steeper gears will get you going quicker and get that lead sled moving FASTER-QUICKER

In regards to the 57, have you experimented with spacers yet? Would think a 2" 4 hole tapered would get you closer depending on air, maybe just a 2" open.

Run'er a little lean.
Installing electric water pump drive kit, $80-and/or manual steering will definately get you what you need.

Race gas would slow him down since it makes less energy per BTU than lower octane fuel, all the higher ocatne race gas does is slow the burn process so it doe'snt pre-ignite as easily.

Jason Dammen

Just to add a note, My combo made less power on the dyno with a 4 hole spacer vs an open spacer but Im sure this depends alot on the combo.
As for the race fuel thing, Im not talking standard race fuel... I figured that would slow him down with a lower compression engine but NITRO is some nasty stuff. It is alot more flammable than race fuel and it packs alot more energy in the fuel. I think Patrick James (prosystem carbs) said something about this in his video. A small block making around 650 hp on regular race fuel would make around 750 on alcohol and something like 850-900 on a small percentage of nitro. I would have to watch the video again to get the exact numbers.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/42018/

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I wont argue you with ya about the numbers from that book/video, but talking with MANY racers that run alcohol and have made the switch froom gas on the same motor, that just installed alcohol set-up only picked up (and this is the best I've heard .3) typically they only picked up .1 or nothing at all except consistency. So Unless the small blocks they were comparing were totally different internals I find it hard to beileve it'd pick up 100hp since nobody and any of the tracks I run have seen that much gain. Alcohol will increase tq more than anything and that's been dyno proven many times.

Same with nitro blend, read link above and see what you think. I've got another thread going on a different site since I wanted to find all the extra ways to get some et and I too thought about adding nitro, all responses were on the dont touch it, it'll be bad.

TexasLT1

hmmm....I'll definitely have to try for that. just wonder what I'll run up here in current trim.

blacksheep-1

You may pursue looking at some chemical "enhancements" for your fuel, basically anything that has the word "oxide" in it would be a start. I have one in mind but it's not easily detected and there are some health risks with it so you're going to have to do your own research. I don't want to be responsible for a bunch of cheaters.

Chickenman35

Juice is the easy way... but it would definately work. To try and find it without is a bit more challenging. Free or almost free:

1: Lose the Cat. Put in a test pipe.

2: Lean the mixture a tad to compensate for altitude. You didn't say what timing you were running, but if over 2,000 ft you can probably add 2 degrees.

3: Aero work. I agree with blocking off the grille. Also make up some headlite covers. Those two pockets create a hell of a lot of drag. Remove the side mirrors.

4: If a three wire GM alternator, pull the field connector just before your run.

5: Dry ice or Bag Ice the intake.

These are lo-cost or no cost options. Might be interesting to see what you can find in free HP.....

Aero work, primarily lowering the whole car, really reaps rewards at high MPH...but obviously may not be the easiest thing to do.

blacksheep-1

Take off the rear spoiler, I remember back in the 80's some super stock guys wouldn't run the Z28's because of the rear spoiler, I forgot about that.

paul_huryk

Lose 300lbs.... the car, not you.....

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the car he's talking about is his 57', not the camaro. the 57' has 3.73 gears guys.

Chickenman35

Slap the Camaro body on the '57

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Actually, putting the 396 into the Camaro has been considered. The ZZ4 shortblock may go in w/o the cat until November, when the emissions has to be done for the last time. It may actually be the better candidate for this effort. If I can find time to put the 350 together, get the tranny ready, etc. The car picked up from 80 mph to 90 mph just doing the 305 mods, can I expect another 10 mph doing the 350?

I've done the icing, spacers, etc. I gave up on the cool can during the Div V finals in Topeka last September. The car ran 15.5's @ 97 mph with q-jet, open element, cool can, 2200 stall and 3.08 gears 3 years ago, and now runs 13.9's @ 97 mph w/Holley DP, cool-air inlet, no cool can, 3500 stall and 3.73 gears (actually clicked off a 13.81 in October when the temp was 40 degrees).

Honest...

Maybe I should just go ahead and do the Comp XS274 and RPM Air Gap - that would probably be cheaper than buying a NOS system - certainly cheaper with no bottle to fill. I'd just have to slow it down for the Division V finals in Brainerd (assuming I make it there).

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'd do the cam/intake deal.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Make'er fast then use this:
http://www.jegs.com//cgi-bin/ncommer...28&prmenbr=361

2 of the guys that dominate the Street/Super class run low 11's WOT, but use these throttle stops to keep them right at the 12.00 fast ET cut off-suprisingly cars are pretty consistent.

And your right, for no more than it costs and time it takes, cam swap would give you more smiles per dollar than the NOS since it's always on tap!

MrDude_1

ive seen fast cars ( 120+ trap speeds) gain a little over 1mph from putting covers over the headlight pockets on the camaros...


doing somthing similar might help you squeek that extra .5mph out.... when aiming for peakMPH, id be looking to reduce drag as much as possible....

as far as the shot goes.. if your carbed, a plate system or the "over the carb" system if you dont have room for the plate.... athough i have no experiance with the over the carb one...

jms

iTrader: (1)

57, go back and look at my previous reply one more time. Please.

Your 57 has a huge open mouth for a grille. About 12-14" tall by 36-40" wide.

Behind that grill opening is a HUGE box (counting the overhang of the hood) that is about 20-24" tall by 30-36" wide by 12-18" deep.

That box WILL catch and hold a HUGE amount of air.

Block off the grill and the air will go over or under the car. Not into the front of it.

My mod suggestion is virtually free. Can't beat that cost. Use tin snips on some old flat pieces of tin or aluminum.

My mod suggestion can easily be tested on the open highway. Before the blockoff, run the car up to whatever speed necessary, and time how long it takes to slow down to whatever mph (using distance works also).

Repeat test with blockoff in place. If car takes longer to slow to X mph, then it worked. If it takes the same time or less to slow to X mph, then it didn't work.

Cheap test that really should work.

jms

note: edited to add depth of box

SSC

I think the juice would be the eayest route since you need to slow down to run in D V class. You may not want to try and slow the car down if you go the cam intake route.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Think what I'll do is at a T&T, uncork the headers, remove the engine-driven fan, loosen the belt, pump up the tires, and tape over the front end (handyman's secret weapon beats fabrication every time...). Maybe take out the front passenger seat (4 bolts, 40 lbs). Hopefully a cool night with low humidity and a tail wind. One shot - if it don't do it, it don't do it.

Next year the Division finals are back at Bandimere. Then the cam and intake wouldn't "out-class" me.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like a good plan. Just a little elbow grease and maybe a piece of cardboard and tape for the front.

I didnt know you were running a no-electric fan. You should pick up a few hp and maybe rev quicker with one. Also good idea about the front passenger seat. (40 lbs )

Oh yeah, Put about 40-45 psi in the front tires for better rollout and adjust the back for best traction. May need to get a few runs in. The open headers may let you rpm range raise a few hundred rpm. Might shift just a little later to see if it makes a difference.

When you going to T & T?

blacksheep-1

Here's what NOT to do. Do not remove the inner fender wells, In my 56 wagon I did this and it was all over the top end of the race track. That old bus ran 106mph though. (327 .030, offroad Z28 cam, ported fuelie double humps, 2- AFBs,headers, 4 speed , 5.13 gears on street tires). Ran low 14s with street tires, ran 13's all day long with those crappy little 7 inch wide slicks.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Next month. 1st day is 16th. First race is the 22nd.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

Keep us posted on what you do and how it runs.

I still have to pour a concrete floor in my garage. Then I still have to do the transgo kit and trans cooler. Not to mention more tunning with the carb and timing! Our track opens April 1st, I wont be ready but still may go and help a friend.

mod313

nm

mod313

Couple little tricks you can try. Drop 1 qt out of the oil pan, ice the intake down as stated, add a little dry ice to the fuel itself, not sure if you've done this already if not zero lash the valves, use only the base of the open air cleaner but be sure to tie it down so it won't blow on top of the carb. There are other tricks you can do as well but these should help the 305 out. Also, let me know what you're running for oil.

Jason Dammen

Good call on the oil thing, that could help. I was recently out visiting a friend of mine in MN that just happens to run a dyno shop. He had some of this Joe Gibbs oil sitting there, so I asked him about it. He said a typical engine that he has tried it in has pickup up an average of about 10hp and 10lbft. I didnt believe him until he showed me the dyno sheets. The ones I seen were engines that were making around 350-400hp that he tried it on. It was crazy... The only thing is that it is around $10 a quart. All in all I dont think that is horrible considering the prices of some of the other synthetics that are out there. It might be worth a shot.
Later
Jason

Here's a link

Joe Gibbs Oil

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

If I only ran the air cleaner base, I'd be injesting hot engine compartment air. Does this matter? You'd better believe it! At the Finals in Pomona in November, the car was about 5 hundredths off in the first round (the other guy broke out so I won anyway) - I couldn't figure out why it was so slow, but I dialed accordingly for the 2nd round. While waiting in the staging lanes for the 2nd round with the hood open, the sun caught the air cleaner just right and I saw a gap between the air cleaner lid & base - Bingo! Tightened it back up, ran on the money 2nd round (okay, I didn't adjust my dial-in back down and broke out, but he broke out worse, so ...). Cool air intake is the only way to go.

As for Joe Gibbs oil: This is interesting: "WARNING: This racing oil...should not be used in street cars." Hey, this is a street car class, and I am running a street car. I'm sure all that means is it isn't API rated (or, that the additive package keeps it from being API-rateable). But then, the "datasheet" link has "data" like this: "Joe Gibbs Performance Racing Oil was put to the test versus the some of the top synthetic racing oils on the market. ... Joe Gibbs Performance Racing Oil beat the competition in every power category - average horsepower, peak horsepower, average torque and peak torque." Excuse me? Where's the data? There aren't any dyno sheets posted (the FAQ link says the MicroZol datasheet has them, but it doesn't). What oils were "the competition"? Was AMSOIL one of them? I don't know, it doesn't say! I'm using $8/qt. AMSOIL in the engine, AMSOIL synthetic ATF (happens to be their "racing" version), and AMSOIL "Severe Gear" synthetic gear lube in the diff. Unless and until Joe Gibbs Performance Racing Oil is willing to post the results of their products against a similar product that AMSOIL recommends for the application, I'll stick with what I'm using, thank you very much.

Thanks for the ideas, though...

FWIW, I'd been using 15W-40 engine oil and the "regular" 75W-90 gear lube up to this point. This season I'm going to 5W-30 engine oil and the aforementioned upgrade gear lube. So, there will probably be a slight gain between those two. The JGRO is approximately a 5W-20, they say, so I suppose I could use an AMSOIL 5W-20 for this one T&T. Or 0W-30, which I have used in the past.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

15W-40??? Oh my Sure you aint got a diesel in that thing?? Just how loose did you build that motor.

Thick oil is 70's mentality and yes you are missing out on a bunch of "free power", switch it over to a good 5W30 full systhetic and hang on for the ride

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Oh, forgot to mention that I already run it near the "Add" mark and never add more than 8 oz. when I do add.

As for the 15W-40, I wasn't using it for the viscosity but for the wear protection (based on standardized test results) and corrosion protection (the oil has extra corrosion inhibitors, and the car sits more than it runs). The engine was built using 1966 factory clearances, which are a bit looser than 2005 standards. However, I didn't notice any difference going from 20W-50 to 10W-30 to 0W-30 to 15W-40 (all full synthetics). But, the 5W-30 I'm putting in didn't exist when I previously used the lighter weights.

We'll see...

mod313

You're still running too much oil in the pan with the level at the "add" mark. Lower it until just about 1/8" shows on the dipstick.
Street class or not, you're trying to squeeze a bit more out of what you have for one or two passes. That's not much different than when we are in either class runoffs or the occasional heads up, same class cars paired up round of eliminations.

Chickenman35

Ummmm....I'd be very carefull about doing that. Unless you know EXACTLY what pan and pump pickup configuration "five7kid" is running, that advice is very risky.

You might get away with that with a deep sump and a very good " Racing " pickup ( The screen shape is critical ), but try this on a stock depth ( or medium depth pan ) and your motor could be in a world of hurt.

Problems can occur with a vortex sucking in air at high rpm ( poor pickup screen design or Lack of oil depth above screen ) and also at the top end when you decelerate. Under deceleration ( particularily in bracket..." first to the brakes " class ) a too low oil level can cause the oil to run away from the pickup. Bye bye bearings. Even a deep sump needs baffling and\or trap doors to stop this from happening.

"Add" mark should be more than sufficiently low....IMHO.

mod313

Really? Because we have to run stock oil pans and unless I miss counted, have hundreds of consecutive passes on these little motors with no blowups or damage. You can actually get away with less than that but I myself won't run it lower than what I've stated. All I'll say is I spin mine well above 7k with no trouble.

Chickenman35

That's why I added....IMHO. But...Do you have the same pan as " five7kid"? The same pickup and oil pump as his? Do you run the same oil pressures and have the same bearing clearances? You may get away with it with YOUR particular combo but I feel it's getting sketchy. Not dissing you...just pointing some factors that ALL affect the oiling system.

I Road Race and oil pressure loss under deceleration is something that is a big problem, especially with stock pans. Cornering....every thinks about that. Very few people consider deceleration...and it can be just as big a problem. Drag cars don't have to deal with cornering....but they still decelerate at the top end. Not as hard as we do..but nailing the brakes at the lights might surprise you if you recorded Data or had an Audible warning system..

Do you run a Sonar-Lert on your oil pressure system? We do and so do most other Road Racers. 120db blast if oil pressure drops below 40psi.

Most Road Racers don't have time to look at their oil pressure gauges ....except on long straights. You guys are probably in the same boat.....but your straights are shorter than ours. Think about it...do you really check your oil pressure all the way thru your run. Come on... be honest. Do you really think to look at it when you're nailing the brakes to prevent a break-out? I highly doubt it. You might be shocked if you ran one ( Sonar-lert) or if you video taped the guages during a run.

I can tell you right now that a stock pan and a GM Z28 style pump will start forming vortices on the high end above 6,000 rpm. I have watched my oil pressure on a long straight away drop from 60psi right down to 40 psi at 6,000rpm in Top Gear. Then drop to 20 psi or less under braking. This was before switching to a proper Road racing pil pan ( Canton ). Any one who runs a wet sump with a SBC and stock type pan has the same issues.

Fluctuating and low oil pressure was a constant problem with Players GM cars which ran in Canada for years. However...I will say this...the GM motor is an astoundingly robust unit. Very few engine blow ups in the Player GM series. That doesn't mean that is a good situation. A Stock engine ( Player's GM ) turning relatively low RPM ( 5,500 rpm tops ) cannot be compared to a 400 to 500HP+ racing motor.

If you can get away with running that low of oil level...great wonderful. More power to you. I'm just saying it's on the ragged edge with Stock GM 3rd Gen pans and common oil pump\pickups from MY experiences and from MY observations of oil pressure on our cars. I've got over $12,000 in my engine. Whether I was Road Racing or Drag Racing, I can't afford to go with an " iffy" or borderline oiling system. 1\8" level on the dipstick is way too risky for me. I think the gains from running that much lower than the "Add" mark are insignificant, especially considering the possible risk. Once more....IMHO of course.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

around here the rule of thumb is "if it has a 5 qt oil pan, then use 4 qt oil". In other words, run on qt less than what your pan calls for. Ive not had any problems yet, but there is alway the first time.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I realize you can run a non-rated oil on the street (the ATF I'm running isn't recommended from the street). Guess I was a little short on sleep when I made those comments. I've never noticed any oil pressure fluctuation on this engine, although the Camaro does the deacceleration (there's an oxymoron for you) oil pressure drop thing on a regular basis. Neither engine is built anywhere close to the detail that a Stock class car would be.

I'm still wondering if the Camaro with the ZZ4 and a tranny that actually shifts from 2-3 at WOT is the better candidate. We'll see, I guess.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

I hear you about the 2-3 shift. Im losing at least a tenth having to lift to get it to shift into 3rd. Hopefully this will be corrected when I install my trango kit with boost valves and servo.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I don't lift, just let it go through the traps in 2nd. It's hitting about 6300 when doing that. I don't think that will cut it with the 350, though.

The Transgo stuff didn't do a thing to change that for me.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

I was going through the traps in 2nd also untill I did the 2.73 to 3.73 swap. Now I have to shift into 3rd.

If the trango kit doesnt work, then I guess its time for a rebuild.

Chickenman35

What do you want the 2-3 shift to do? Shift higher or lower? 2-3 shift is controlled mainly by the Governor. B&M makes a Governor tuning kit that has different weights and springs.

Getting the 1-2 shift and 2-3 shift exactly where you want them can be a bit of a juggling act...A PITA actually.

One advantage with the Transgo...If you want, you can change it to full manual shift or better yet Semi- manual. With Semi -manual, you still get Auto upshifts in drive.

Here's the trick. Adjust your 1-2 shift points and 2-3 shift points on the low side. Say 5,000 RPM at WOT. Then manully change the gears...say at 6,500. With the Trango kit it will hold the selected gear till you move the lever from 1-2 or 2-3. Since you are above the " Programmed " shift point...shifting will be immediate once you move the lever.

blacksheep-1

IMO offload the transgo stuff.
http://www.turboaction.com/