overdriv

I've been reading a lot here and have learned a lot from your discussions. Now I have some questions for a new (for me) thirdgen race car project that I am about to get going on.

I have purchased a 1987 Camaro that has been started on the road to race car. The guy I got it from was going to run it on the street and strip. My plans are for the strip only. Probably run brackets at local 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile strips.

It has had all the OEM wiring removed and a Painless wiring harness installed. I will complete all the necessary wiring for all other circuits.

It has an 8 point roll bar in it now. I plan to install the halo and A" pillar bars right away. Interior has been removed except for the headliner, door covers, and some plastic around the rear quarters.

It has a stock width Strange 12 bolt with Strange 33 spline axles, 4.11 Posi. I will pull the positrax and install a spool. It has South Side Machine Lift bars and Lakewood LCAs and SSM frame rail connectors. CE adjustable shocks at this time.

Front suspension is stock and will remain basically stock for this year, except for a good set of shocks for the front. It has a lift off glass hood.

I want to run and have a BBC and a powerglide. The engine is a 565CID in the 750-800hp level. The PG is a 1.76 bracket glide with a brake. It may need to be beefed up a bit and I can do that if needed.

My questions to start with; how big of tire can I get under this car, width/height? What tire would you reccommend?

Has anyone ran a thirdgen setup like this one with this much engine successfully?

Any thoughts, comments and advice is welcome.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I would say a back half is in order.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

with what you're thinking of doing, i believe atleast a mini-tub is in order, as you'll want to run the tallest tire you can stuff in the well, then gear accordingly. width is more or less up to your personal preference.

i have right now, a 29x9 on a 15x10 with a 6.5" backspacing. i've cut my bumpstops out, and i need to run a 1/4" spacer in order to not rub the front of the well. stock style suspension still(and plan to keep it that way)

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

its really hard to argue with a 4 link and back half in a car thats doing nothing but bracket racing.

but if you do stay stock suspension try to stuff a 29-30inch 10.5w under it

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

ssm bars are definitely deviating from stock style suspension...it's like a "poor man's" ladder bar

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

oops missed the ssm's. personally i'd put a torque arm back under it

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

+1. you can get torque arms now-a-days that have incredible adjustment, etc. ssm bars are fixed.

overdriv

Thanks for the comments guys, please take no offense, but the torque arm isn't going back under it. I want to make this work if possible.

AlkyIROC

I'll start like everyone else. Ditch the SSM and put a proper suspension in the car. A good aftermarket torque arm system can go much faster that you probably will. An alternative would be to put ladder bars under the car. If you want to go to a 4-link, you will have to do a back half to do it properly. SSM bars are designed for the street, not the strip.

As for the rest of the combination, it sounds like what I already have. I was able to squeeze some 29.5 x 10.5 slicks under the fenders with the typical third gen inner fender modifications. Although many people have gone fast on a small tire, traction is always an issue. I finally decided that I wanted a lot more rubber on the ground and back halved my car. It currently has 32 x 14 slicks and I want to put 32 x 16 on next time. I have a 15" wide rim so 16" wide is about the most I can go. I do have room under my fenders for the bigger tires.

If your 8 point roll bar is 1-3/4" tubing and you want to make it a full cage, I'd suggest cutting the roll bar out and buying a new full cage. Maximum tubing size in a full cage only needs to be 1-5/8". Your current roll bar diameter is acceptable but you have no idea what the thickness of the tubing is. If someone put a substandard tube in to cut costs, if you convert it to a full cage and need to get it certified, it will fail and you'll have to cut it all out anyway.

As for making it a full race car, take out everything not required for speed or safety.

overdriv

It's a competition engineering 8pt. Mild steel.

AlkyIROC

But still made from 1-3/4" tubing. I'd at least chop out everything except the main hoop and replace them with 1-5/8" tubing if you want to go with a full cage. Straight tubing is easy to purchase locally and work with. 0.134" EWS is what you're looking for. If you want to spend more for DOM tubing, you can use 0.120" wall.

overdriv

Why would I want to chop out a perfectly good 8pt roll bar just because it's 1 3/4" tubing? All I need to do is add the halo and "A" pillar bars and "X" brace the doors.

I do know what the roll bar is and it is a CE roll bar, and it was installed by a very good welder and fab man that has done many. CE says the pipe meets or exceeds NHRA requirements.

Go here to see what it is;http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CEE-3130-K/

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

the smaller tubing is lighter
lighter car=lower et's and once that thing is stripped it gets more and more expensive to pull weight out

overdriv

Well, I thought there was some sort of quality problem or something serious. The weight difference between the two size tubings would be minimal. I'm not sure the cost would be worth the benefit.

cp87GTA

If you really have 750 800 hp, sell the car and buy a tube car that is done. All kinds of them for sale right now much cheaper than you can build that car. 800 hp & a glide with a brake = big tire car. Unless you love ice scating at over 100mph. I've built a tube chassis Grand Am and a back half 96 bird, It's a lot of work. Check out racingjunk.com

AlkyIROC

I've invested a lot of money into my car in the last 10 years. It would have been a lot cheaper to just buy a rolling tube chassis car. There's a thread that I did showing what's involved to put a back half into a third gen. Lots of work. Although I could do more cars, I have no desire to do another

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

for bracket racing with that kind of power, yes, a tube chassis car would be better.

but stock style suspension, small tire cars are SO MUCH COOLER

overdriv

Well, I'm going to give it a shot. Plan to open up the wheel wells as much as possible and stuff as large of tire in there as possible, whatever that may be.

Can any one tell me the largest size tire that will fit under a 1987 thirdgen?

AlkyIROC

.

ezstriper

ditch the 12 bolt for a 9" with that power, but as stated you will be far ahead to buy a tube chassis roller, selling mine, nice car, professionally done, certified currant belts, chute new brakes/tires/paint $17,500, you will spend more doing yours by the time it's said and done by far...built them before..never seems that way...till it's to late to turn back..

ezstriper

to answer your question, we are running a 565 w/400 runs 5.60 flat @ 130 1.19 60', just started to get a handle on the suspension as the season ended....if you decide to go with that car and a 565, you are going to have a tuff time of it, unless you put a chassis and 4 link set up under it...

cp87GTA

And that won't be big enough. If you're bound and determined to do it no mater what guys are telling you, why ask? I just hope I'm never in the lane next to you while you trying to track skate. Small tire cars do have there place at the track, but most are running a moderate small block. The guys that run the 10.5 tire class with any hp have a ton of money in their cars, and have big brass -alls.

overdriv

OK, OK, OK! I'm listening. I spent the evening checking out the back-halfs. Anyone have a preference? I used a S&W welded back-half on my S10 pickup. It seemed to go in ok. Would I need an anti-roll bar?

I can probably do a backhalf for around $2500, not counting the extra tubes I'd need to finish the roll cage.

Really, thanks for the advice and direction guys. The fun is just beginning.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

i think 2500 is a little optimistic unless you already have a complete rear end for it.

overdriv

Actually I didn't include the rear end. That would be everything but the rear end, but yes I have either a 9" ford or a D60, both need narrowed, but I'd do that my self. So yeah, I'd need a spool, ends, bearings, gears and a 1350 yoke. I'd probably use the 9".

cp87GTA

I built both of mine from comp engineering pieces. I didn't use an anti roll bar but I'm only running about 650 hp, and it leaves pretty good. My buddy has a 70 Chevelle and he uses a roll bar with only a few ponies more. So it will depend on your set up. Good luck on your build.

AlkyIROC

The S&W kit is probably the best way to go and yes, you should use an anti roll bar with a 4-link. When I first ran my 4-link, the car was constantly pulling to the right when I launched. If I was in the left lane, it felt like I was going to take out the tree. I was putting more preload than I wanted into the bars to straighten it out. After a couple of race weekends, I finally installed an anti roll bar. Now the car launches so straight, I can just about take my hands off the steering wheel when it launches.

The cost of kits is always cheap. The cost of installation is expensive because it's so time consuming. To have a chassis shop do a complete back half, expect to spend around $10,000 to have it done. When looking at the cost of a back half kit, full cage and maybe a tubular front end, the cost of a tube chassis kit isn't that much more and the weight saving is substantial. Just takes a lot more work to put it together.

My back half wasn't a kit. I used generic frame rails and a basic 4-link kit. I narrowed my own 9" to put under the car. I never did total up the entire cost to do my back half but it was far less than what a chassis shop would have charged. It also took me a lot longer to do and may not be a perfect installation but it works well. I wasn't building a show car and I'm not after a best engineered car award.

Many of those 10.5 cars are also turbo cars. They don't punish the small tires off the line as much as a high rpm, high torque launch from a NA car. It's easier to go faster with a big tire since you're not fighting for traction as you go down the track. I've made full passes on a track that small tires were having problems on. Those records and accomplishments you hear about with small tire cars are also on very well prepped tracks.

ezstriper

speaking from experiance, the brute torque/power that a decent 565 will make will show weak spots and drivability issues very quicky and it's no walk in the park just getting the car to make a good pass...much less trying to go fast !!!

overdriv

Does your car have a four link suspension in the rear?

ezstriper

yes, with a wishbone, I ran a supergas corvette many years ago with a 4 link in that as well, ran that car for 7 years, then got out for many years...started back a couple of years ago, knew a 4 link is the only way to go with power, but what I found out (with help from robert patrick) learned the "new" way of tuning and the wheelie bars are critical !!!! not just control wheel stands anymore...thats why if you watch pro stock on tv you will see a crew member with a tape measure checking the height as the car pulls to the line, never knew it was that critical..until now !!! thats what a few of us on here been trying to tell you...it is a science..Rob

overdriv

I understand it is a science, and I know the four link is the most adjustable system there is. I have a pro-street S10 with a four link that runs as straight as an arrow, but honestly it has modest power as it is street driven most of the time.

You say you run a wishbone, and I understand what they are. Are they better, and in what way than a diagonal bar on the lower arms?

ezstriper

all the latest "race cars" use the wishbone...I'm sure there is a reason there...we ran my car for a season with a pump gas 468, low h/p, used as a training engine for my son to get used to the car..it's when we put the 565 in EVERYTHING changed..so modest h/p or a street set-up will be ok until you add serious h/p, thats when you find out your stuff is junk !!! I my self was caught completly off gaurd, so when somebodys telling me they are going to stick in some serious power and fly....GFL !!!! if it were that easy everybody would be flying !!

overdriv

Hey look, I never said anything about flying or made any wild predictions. I know it will be a chalenge. I had hoped to run the small tire for a while but got hammered so hard about it that I've regrouped and will do the four link. I wanted to anyway but not this year, as I am on a budget. I'm not new to the racing scene but I am new to this level of power. That's why I'm asking question here with people who have this type car.

I ask about the diagonal bar as that is what the S&W back half comes with. I only have experience with a panhard bar on my truck. It works well for that but I know there is a better way.

ls170GTO

You don't need to backhalf the car for that much HP.. I have a customer who has been 9.18@150 mph with 29x10.5s...and an Alston Torque Arm with a 9" rear... Car weighs 3200 #'s...


90/10 front struts, otherwise STOCK front suspension, Alston torque arm, alston solid control arms, alston panhard bar, and comp engineering 3 way adj shocks.. This car has been as low as 1.21 60'..Goes consistent 1.28-1.34..

Why back half when you could do it on stock suspension?!
Oh ya, and its a girls car.

overdriv

Do you have any experience with the South Side Machine Lift bars that are on my car?

ls170GTO

Are you talking to me?

overdriv

I'm sorry, yes I was. I forgot to quote.

z28freak84

I do... They sucked.... Old man should have just put a good torque arm, LCA's, and panhard..... Would have been way more consistent... SSM's have no adjustability....There's a reason they dont make them anymore......

overdriv

That's about what I'm hearing from everyone. The lack of adjustabillity bothered me from the get go, but I guess I hoped they were worthy of the job. Probably are ok for a good street car.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

You mean, because they went out of business?

z28freak84

Yes... I know this... And that would be because all of their products were junk... They couldnt sell enough to stay in business. My buddy's H/C/I 89 Mustang coupe had boxed stock uppers with SSM lowers and it too would NOT hook for anything! It would BLOW a set of M&H's off half down the 1/8...ran a 9.70.... BUT at 85mph.. like a 2.40 60' or something ridiculous.
Shoulda went 7.80's at 87mph or so...
He couldnt drive either.. But still shoulda been able to half *** hook it.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I've got their lift bars on the '57. Leaf spring, of course, but work well.

cp87GTA

I had them on my 78 T/A a few years ago, and they worked very well too. I know it wasn't a 3rd gen , but it could be how they are setup. I know that all of the old slapper type bars were not the same.

AlkyIROC

Most people with leaf spring cars now run a Caltracs type system. There are a few different variations on the design but they all work better than the old slapper bar technology.

cp87GTA

I agree! But they still have the separation problem at higher hp. 3rd and 4th gen cars are much better in mop.

ezstriper

I'm not saying you can't run stock suspension...but if you do with these big motors, it's going to end up ripping that crap out after a while....you ever look at the stock stuff, floor pan included..seen it rip the control arm mounts right out...so run that stock stuff if you want...till it puts your *** in the wall or worse....