mefreema

http://www.detroitspeedworks.com

I was browsing the internet and found this place where I live that carries these kits. They also do a bunch of custom work as well. Check out the sight if your interested.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

They simply carry the turbotech kits that have been avail. for a very long time, not sure on the LS1 kit but the LT1 sucks pretty badly, not to mention neither will fit a 3rd gen.

'87FAKE-IROC-Z

Yeah, where did you get 3rd gen out of all that?

mefreema

I just got off the phone with the guy and he said they did. Huh? What about their kits suck so bad? They said they could sell you just parts so I was thinking by just getting the manifolds you could save yourself some work and just fab the rest. ie. crossover down pipe and intake plumbing.

Guido

www.turbotechnologyinc.com

Go look at the LT1 installation instructions and tell me that thing will fit on a 3rd gen.

The closest thing they have that would fit are the truck header and it still would require work.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Well basically their LT1 kit would interfere with your steering box, and the turbo is mounted so low that people have oil drain problems with them, along with the header cracking quite often, the LS1 wont even bolt to your cylinder heads, the impala one didnt look too brake system friendly, and the truck one will require a tubular K member and a bunch of other work, and still be a log manifold design, good luck.

CrazyHawaiian

Whoever you talked to on the phone lied. Like everyone else said .. those wont fit without alot of custom modifications. Not to say it couldnt be done ... its just not a bolt in fit. You could start with the headers and work from there building your own kit, but from what I've read and researched, building your own turbo setup for a EFI SBC is going to cost an arm and a leg.

I basically looked at it two ways ... You can stick with the stock 3rd gen engine, build it up, fab all the pipes, get the FMU going and everything, do all the research/tuning and hope it works .... or you could swap in a built LS1 and use most of the parts from a LS1 pre-made kit (fab your own piping and stuff) with parts and stuff that have been tested and verified ... and they both came out to about the same cost to do it right. Around 10-13 grand.

Guido

10-13 grand for a turbo for a thirdgen?

I dont have that in mine.

BIG turbo (T88): $1800
Header materials and my own labor: $1000
Wastegate: $500
Exhaust plumbing: $350
Intercooler: $550
Intake Plumbing: $150


Total: $4350

Now granted, i got some good deals and fabbed a lot of my own stuff, but you could reasonably have a decent turbocharger system for a LOT less than what I have spent. I feel like I have put together a quality system for my car. I could have cut a LOT of corners and made it cheaper and got the job done too.

RMK

Ok Guido, you're talking me into it. I just want to see what sort of numbers that thing puts down at the track/dyno before I start withdrawing the money

CrazyHawaiian

how are you dealing with the FMU? does that $4400 quote also include the engine or the rebuild? And what about your support components? I had made a list of everything needed to turbocharge a completely stock L98 TPI car and it came out to around 10 grand just for parts. Where do you get such deals? Hook me up!!!

RMK

:sillylol: :sillylol: :sillylol:

B4Ctom1

I have never seen a turbo kit or blower kit that came with the engine.

bhaas

I just bought 2 turbos off of E-Bay for $650 (Should be here next week) and I'm gonna do all the fab work myself. All said and done should be about $2000 total. And that's a high estimate.

Brad...

BlownBird

Guido,
For $4400.....I'll take two kits!
Thanks,
Don B.

CrazyHawaiian

I dont know why you guys have to be smart asses. You know what I mean. Of course a 'kit' would not include the engine. But think about it ... we're dealing with 10-15 year old cars/engines. Anybody who is gonna do this right isn't gonna boost the stock engine with high miles. (You could do it, but you better have an engine fund saved up so when it blows the car wont be sitting for months) To do it right, you will either swap in a new engine (crate) or rebuild the current engine for boost with stronger internals. My guesstimated price was referring to a complete package deal ... everything needed to do it right. And thats not even including the time it would take to properly tune the setup. Unless you go with the expensive FMU's (like FAST), you could be there for weeks/months wondering why its running crappy. Yes I believe it would cost around 10 grand to do this, probably more. Just look at how much Monty spent doing his.

bhaas

It's a lot cheaper to do with a carb setup. Fuel injection is crap anyway and a lot more expensive to do, due to all the computer junk you have to have. Check out this site. It's a Ford but he's got twin turbos for less than $3000 and is running 10's with that garbage he's got set up. http://www.toohighpsi.com/BudgetTT/tthowto.htm
If you want to go fast cheaply and you want turbos, carbs are the way to go. IMO.

Brad...

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

bhaas, it's funny that you would use Mike's site as an example about how running a carb is superior since every car that he's built has ended up with an Electromotive TEC II on it.

Considering that what he builds is totally budget you would think that he would stay away from an engine management system that costs more then any of his drivetrains unless there was a very good reason to go with it. (actually, he just splurged on some aluminum heads for his single turbo engine in what used to be the twin supercharged t-bird, so that one at least has more $ in engine parts then engine management)

BTW, with the TEC II and 77# high impedance injectors his turbo cars idle like stockers, I was surprised to see his dad's (crazy joe on the site) car start as easy as a stock tpi car covered with snow on a 30* night... Not bad for a 9second car

bhaas

What is an Electromotive TEC II? It just seems to me that carbs work great and without all the hassle and expense of the electronics. I like that site. It has recently been updated. Lots more cool stuff there. It would be nice to have a car that starts easy. Mines a pain in the cold. No choke. I figured if he could make a 10 second car with PVC I could do it to. That's my goal, to get to 10 secconds and I would also like to do some wheel stands. That's my second goal. But I'll probably have to build another motor for that cause I don't think my stock rebuild 350 will hold up to that.

Brad...

bhaas

I just found the Electromotive site. They have the TEC3 now I guess. I bet that sure would be fun to play with. How much for that system? There isn't any prices on that site. But ultimately, won't the carb setup make more power? I keep reading that the FI has serious flow restrictions and can never be made to flow fuel like a carb. But after I do the carb thing, I wouldn't mind trying the FI thing if it's worth it. Thanks.

Brad...

CrazyHawaiian

I agree Brad. If you went with a carb'd setup then it would be alot cheaper (by @ least 3 grand) and easier to get working. The downside is that you will never be able to tune the car as good as if you were running a high end FMU setup. The FAST system for example (SpeedPro) gives you so many tuning variables that someone who knows what they're doing could tune the car to the point that they extract the maximum hp/tq possible from the setup. With a carb'd setup everything is non electrical, and adjusted manually so tuning can be alot more frusturating and will never be as precise as a high end electrical FMU. Take Monty's project as an example .. tuning alone (of the FAST system) netted him over 100 extra hp. And he said there is alot more tuning that they could do.

But honestly, I think for the every day guy (non professional racer) with a big displacement engine the whole Carb'd vs EFI on a turbo application is moot. Either way it will still be really really fast. All my knowledge (and it is very limited) of turbocharging comes from the sport compact scene, so thats why I'm obsessed with tuning. A small displacement engine needs every hp/tq it can produce so tuning is very very important. Tuning a small displacement turbo setup could mean the difference between 250 or 300 hp. Dosnt mean much for us, but for the sport compact thats a big difference. With a big displacement engine, tuning could be the difference between 600 hp and 700hp. Don't get me wrong, that a big difference but even without the tune, still very fast.

So why do I wanna go EFI? Why do I want to go with a more complex and expensive setup? Well Carb'd cars dont like turns (fuel starvation) so it would not be a good idea for street or road racing. For other people (who want to go in a straight line for example) a Carb'd setup would be alot cheaper and easier to setup.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

TEC II- Total Engine Control, it's an aftermarket ecm that also completely replaces the distributor (look around Mike's site, you'll see that most of the finished engines have coil pacs mounted somewhere on top, that's the TEC II).

they currently have a new version, the TEC III that's got some of the same upgrades that the latest DFI and Fast systems have

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Assuming that they are properly setup, there is no real advantage with going with a carb vs injection or vice versa at WOT. Both can be setup to provide the optimum air fuel mixture to build the best power.

At part throttle though, it’s impossible to get a carb as dialed in as FI, so you’ll never have it tuned as well for transient response. Also, FI lets you tune the engine to act differently when you’re leaning on it then if you’re driving normally, which carbs can do, sorta (things like accelerator pumps do this for a split second).

Lastly, carbs just don’t have the range that FI does. This becomes a real problem with cars running a lot of boost since you need much smaller air passages (the blower makes the air more dense) but much larger fuel passages to match the air flow. This is why the old Capri on Mike’s site ended up with the injector mounted in the intake ducting and why almost all higher HP blown, carbed engines end up with some sort of auxiliary fueling.

CrazyHawaiian, carbs can be setup to deal well with g’s from cornering, you just have to do it (center hung floats…).

WRT to cost, the TEC III is something like $2400, I'm not sure where to get a TEC II, but I bet that you could get one for about $1000 less then the TEC III.

Guido

Alright, stock TPI car.

I have an 87 IROC L98. It has 132k miles on it. Would I turbo it if I had the change to throw around? Hell yes I would and here is what I would do:

-Pait of turbocoupe turbos: $300 (junkyard and maybe they need rebuilt?)
-cut flanges at work (free for me)
-304 stainless 2 1/2" u-bend: $65
-304 stainless 2 1/2" straight: $45 (approx)
-304 stainless 1 5/8" straight: $20 (approx)
-steel 2 1/2" straight and assorted 90 degree bends: $200 (approx)
FMU: $100 (or under on ebay)
inline fuel pump: What do these things cost?

Id start yanking **** off of the front of my car. Take the 1 5/8" pipes and square them up and weld into the header flanges I made. tack weld. Then attach 2 1/2" straight onto the 1 5/8" stubs sticking out for a LOG manifold. put bend on front end and hang on front of engine. Run 2 1/2" steel from turbos down under car in stock exhaust configuration.

Install FMU in return lines of rubber fuel lines. hose clamp to barbs and there you go.

Hell, you could even do this all in steel and buy one of those DIY header kits to start with that have the studs sticking out of the flange. Have a friend or do it yourself weld the headers together. If steel doesnt even HAVE to be TIG could be MIG.

Are you starting to get the idea here? That is a dirt cheap option of building a turbo setup. Not to mention the other shorty headers out there that may be able to be adapted to something of this sort of application.

No one has taken the inititave with a 3rd gen to just try it.
:shrug:

THAT setup would be MUCH MUCH less than my setup.

How many people put prochargers, vortechs or paxton's on their stock high mile TPI's? Quite a few! Is it smart? Maybe not but you can pull an engine, bore it and put some speed pro or TRW pistons in cheaply enough and new rings and bearings.

mefreema

AMEN!! I want to see more cobbled together custom crap people have done and made work for those of us on a budget. Like Mike's site which I found some time ago and learned alot. I love the part where he talks about an experience at the track where someone says "this cobbled together piece of crap would be lucky to run 13's...". And his response, "Well that statement is about 50% correct, it is a cobbled together piece of crap, but a 10 second one." I tend to care more about things going fast before looking nice but I know more people are the opposite.

Guido

Im one of those people. I want things to at least look presentable.

Any cobbled together setup I made would still LOOK good.

CrazyHawaiian

Ok well I dont agree (I havent seen anyone put a cheap system like that together firsthand) but I wont doubt you because you are far far far ahead of me in your project and I can tell from what you've done so far that you have a good plan and know what your doing. I'm sure it is possible. The turbocoupes came with either Garret or IHI T3 turbos which I think are way to small for the flow of a v8, and I've never heard of or seen a FMU for $100. But hey, maybe you're right, maybe that combo would work (who knows how effecient ... but it might work).

So now I'm seeing that there are two ways to go about it. You can either go the super budget route and put junkyard parts together that may or may not work and go from there fabbing parts you need as you come across the need. This would be good if you had alot of mechanical/welding skill and an extra daily driver on the side and alot of time to work on the project car. Or you can go about it the correct/expensive way (like Monty did) with a full project plan and upgrade everything needed to have a custom electronic system that will last for a long time and is fully tunable. Different ppl have different ways of reaching their goals, so I'm not gonna say anything bad about it. If you can get a budget junkyard type setup working then I give you mad props. I know for me personally I dont have enough skill to pull that off. But for the people that spend the time and money on a (I guess what you could call a higher end setup?), you could possibly end up with the raw power output like Monty ... over 700 ft/lbs of tq @ 3000 rpm thats just insane ..

For me, I want a system that can handle the abuse I want to dish out, can also handle daily driving, and is roadracing oriented. And I dont want to spend alot of money to 'hope' it works. And I dont want to be troubleshooting why it dosnt work for months. Check out this thread if you want to know what I mean about doing this the correct way. Talking with some companies specializing in turbo setups, I have determined that it would cost about the same as Guido's entire project just for the support components needed. So in other works, with the research I did, It would cost around $4500 just for support parts to make sure the system would be stable. Add on the cost of the turbo (s), intercoolers, real FMU like FAST, BOV, and whatever you want to do with the engine (rebuild or crate) and I guesstimate you're at around 10 grand. Thats just how I came up with that figgure.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...ighlight=Banks

But hey like I said, I give alot of respect to people who can do it cheaper and I'm not ******* on anyone here. As far as I'm concerned anyone who turbocharges a car on their own (not using a pre-made kit) is the man ... so all you guys who have done it or are doing it .... you are the man.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh, here's part of his email about running his drag radial car at Beaver Creak last friday:

"First round eliminations I dialed a 10.00 and staged
the car, "Beaver Bob" was on the PA system and kinda
laughed as he saw the bird in the staging beams.
According to Dad and Lunatic, he said "Look at the
10.00 dial on this heap, who does this guy think he
kidding" As I said, the track was hooking well, so at
launch the bird pulled the tires high and carried them
thru most of first gear, Beaver Bob said couldn't
believe it! I ended up breaking out with a 9.988 @
139.99 MPH (1.514 60'). "

BTW, for those of you that don’t know what car we’re talking about, here it is:


And here is under the hood:


BTW, this is crazy Joe’s (his dad) 9 second, twin T-bird T3 car:

Greasemonkey

How many cars go 9's on a budget? 83, did Joe's car actually ever hit nines? I knew it ran an 1/8 that would have equated to a nine second quarter, but wasn't sure.

CrazyHawaiian

Anything is possible. I dont doubt someone could rig a twin T3 setup on a big displacement engine and run a 9 second 1/4 mile. If you look at it purely from a effeciency and flow perspective, the T3 with the T-Coupe compressor and exhaust sizes is not a good match with engines that flow around 1000 cfm. But that dosnt mean anything in real life. Who knows, maybe it would work out. And in this example, it looks like it did work out. Good for them!! Much props.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Both his cars run 351 Windsor engines. For that matter, HP produced by blown engine is entirely dependant on what the compressor manages to force into the engine, nothing more, nothing less. We are easily at the point where more ci will make it harder to make a good run, since you will make the same power but at a lower rpm, making the car harder to hook.

Actually, I’ve got a question for you CrazyHawaiian (I’m serious about this so please don’t take this as I’m picking on you). For that matter, anyone reading this that is agreeing with him can answer:

You’re last two responses to this thread express something that makes no sense to me whatsoever. Basically, the thought that if it isn’t packaged as a professionally engineered package that it’s just not right. If it doesn't have the right chrome, powdercoating, annodizing and i'm betting the next one will be hardcoating and stickers it can't possibly be right. You dismiss it before even checking to see what the situation is (I know, right now you’re thinking that you did asses the situation and had an appropriate reaction).

First, I don’t know if you know how to read compressor maps, but if you do look up the compressor map for a 60 trim T3. When you do you’ll find that they are about as perfect as you get for turbo charging a 5.6-5.8L engine that spins up to about 6000rpm and makes up to about 650 or more hp (if you play with some turbo calculators most suggest that there isn’t anything that will be more efficient up to about 720hp). Does that change your mind? (these #'s are without an intercooler, with one you end up with exactly the same situation but you get that power at a lower boost level and rpm)

How about the fact that Mike was an engineer for Eaton (the inspiration for his twin M90 blown setup), and now is one for Lycoming (turbocharged aircraft engines). Does that change your mind?

Again, I’m not asking this to be a *****, I really want to know, because it’s something that really bothers me about the whole automotive aftermarket. What sells and makes money is the stuff that looks good. PERIOD. You can make something that is infinitely superior, costs half as much… and if it does not have as nice a powerdercoating or is heaven forbid MIG (or even worse stick) welded instead of perfect looking TIG welds (If you had some money I’d suggest that you buy some of the stuff out there and start cutting it up. Very few TIG welded products out there have correct penetration, where it’s much easier to get it and end up with a stronger, but not as pretty a part with a decent MIG weld) you will not sell many of them.

This is the core of the whole ‘rice’ market, and you think that it doesn’t happen with f-body stuff, but look around, do you see anyone that has any real knowledge of suspension engineering or kinematics running the common aftermarket torque arms that many vendors offer? For that matter the people in the know rarely buy any kits out there, but make their own stuff. Do you really think that they’re saving money over buying something preassembled and mass-produced out of materials bought at quantity prices (quite often if you just price out the parts used it looks like they’re saving money, but if you include labor and all the little things no way).

CrazyHawaiian

I have no idea where you are comming up with this stuff. I didnt say anything about choosing a turbo setup because of how it looks. Oh wow it has some cool sounding word so I'll buy that one! You must take me for a fool. What I was saying was that a person like me (not enough skills to make my own headers) cannot afford to spend months putting together a homemade junkyard turbo setup and hoping it works. A person like me is not willing to dump $10,00-$15,00 much less $4,500 into a setup and *hope* it all works out. Sure I can study compressor maps and write stuff down all day, I can research and plan and think I have something perfect, but with all the 'unnowns' of turbocharging a 10-15 year old engine and EFI setup, who knows what will happen? I know I dont. If you do, please share. "If it isn’t packaged as a professionally engineered package that it’s just not right" is partly true, but it has nothing to do with looks. I dont see whats wrong with preferring a tried and proven 'professionally engineered 'pre-made kit. If someone else has a kit that is proven to work, I'm more likely to buy it than try to R&D my own setup. Of course I will still research enough to know what I'm buying, but I wont be designing a kit from scratch. Do you see what I mean? Thats why the whole LS1 swap + LS1MotorSports turbo kit with fabbed tubing idea came up. Proven setup on a LS1 already working in other cars, just needs to be modded a little (or alot, I havent really looked into it that far) to fit a 3rd gen. Seems like a better bet to me.

'How about the fact that Mike was an engineer ... does that change your mind?' Mind about what? I never said anything bad about homemade setups and the people who have set them up. I dont even know where you got that idea. Read what I said again. When someone says 'you are the man' and 'I give you props' thats a good thing. I don't even know who Mike is. Seeing that he works in the field, no wonder he can put together effective homemade setups. Gee I wish I could do that. I dont have those kind of skills. I'm not in that league. I know it dosnt sound as cool, but I'll be up front, *yelling like the face in my avatar* I cant do that kind of stuff!! You can ask me to design and implement a computer network, hey no problem! ... ask me to weld my own turbo headers for a SBC and I'll just be scratching my head. And there are alot of other people out there just like me (good at other stuff besides fabbing your own homemade turbo setups).

And yeah I know about the T3 in T-Coupes. Thats pretty much the same turbo I have in my 85 SVO. Only difference might be turbine size depending on the year of T-Coupes (and if it was auto or manual). I dont quite know how you can consider them perfect for a big displacement engine. Seems to me like thats pushing it. Maybe with two of them it might work, but not with a single T3, no way. They can only support around 300 hp each @ 22psi. So no that dosn't change my mind. The fact that Mike (whoever he is) got a 351 twinturbo T3 to run 9's makes me wonder. But just stating some numbers wont change my mind. But hey, like I said earlier, maybe it is possible. I'm not always correct. Show me first hand and give me factual numbers, then I'll believe it (not the 9 second run, the setup).

And I dont know why you gotta link me to the 'rice' market. Thats just mean. Low blow!! Boo!! Hiss!! I got no problem telling you I prefer GT styling over Muscle car styling. And just because a 'rice market' forms around that style does not mean I'm in it with them. I know the difference between rice and a badass street machine. My preferance of looks is totally up to me. Dosnt mean I like to put stickers and non functional stuff on my car, OK?

Not many people out there are 'in the know' when it comes to fabbing your own car stuff. Alot of people are, but majority of the people aren't. Thats why we have aftermarket performance companies. They back R&D and release products that are proven to work. If everyone in the world could fab their own car parts, I dont think aftermarket performance companies would exist.