jeremymsl

Im new and im just thinking so i wanna know what would be good for what i want, i know that sometime in the future im gonna change my 700R4 from my 89 iroc with a 350 to a T56

What i wanna do is take full advantage of that for the lowest price, so i want to make my engin get at LEAST 400 hp and 450 fpt but hopefully more like 450hp and 500tq

Here are the 3 options that i would like to know price and ease of use and etc on

My dad says i should supercharge it but honestly wouldnt a like sts turbo be better and cheaper? The thing is how much would it cost to overhaul my engin for the turbo/supercharger? total how much would it cost?

or i could just get some NOS, now this i know the least about so this is what i need the most info about, could i get 150-200 more hp with nos on a stock engin safley? or would i have to overhaul it or would i just have to upgrade a couple things? and how much is it to put a nos system in and how much is it for nos itself?

roachjuice

turbo. you will never look back. i wish i would have done that to my old 85 camaro. nitrous can add serious hp for little money and its easy to hook up. but once your out of bottle ehh.. superchargers suck imho. just parasitic loss and not efficient. gotta make brackets and pulleys blah blah blah. welder and some pipe is all you need for a turbo setup. holset turbos can be bought for cheap. dont go insane big on one. intercooled 8psi setup on a tpi car would make a nice daily hot rod.

jeremymsl

Ok so iv been looking around for awhile and i cant decide between nos or turbo now , i mean yes id be happyer with a turbo, but it would be soooo much more expensive, with nos all i gotta do is maby upgrade fuel pump and ignition but honestly i might not even need that for a stock motor to get 100 extra hp (if i put headers and everything on my motor i think i can get it up to 300 hp with just the motor)

The turbo would be pretty awsome but that would guarentee a full engin build on top of the price of the turbo kit turbo and computer tune, nos just seems so convienent, it would be my daily driver so its just drive around and whenever i see a guy on the street i wanna show off to just press a button and go?

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Also remember if you do a supercharger (pro-charger) or a turbo even at a basic 6-8psi you'll more than likely want to have new engine parts such as forged rods, new pistons, new internals, the works. 20+ year old internals may not hold up well with a power adder on top. So that automatically makes a seemingly easy mod like the turbo build into a few thousand dollars. However, it'll be worth the money and the performance you gain and reliability is worth it IMO.

ZZ3Astro

400+ hp and cheap don't get along. I did my turbo setup as cheaply as possible - did everything myself, including the tranmission build - and I still have $3000 in the turbo/injectors/tubing/megasquirt/wideband O2/fuel pump and another $1500 into the transmission. That puts me right at 400 crank hp at ~12.5 psi

My engine is at its max potential right now. When I increase the boost I just get a bunch of oil coming out everywhere. I'm getting ready to build the engine and a decently strong forged bottom end/machine work/cam/heads will cost another $5000. Once I do that I have to upgrade to a larger turbo for about $700. Then my 9 bolt might run out of strength, maybe

Nitrous.. well suffice to say if I had a 200 shot of nitrous, it's very likely my 9 bolt would have been destroyed by now. I also question how well the 700r4 would deal with the sudden shock, considering how often I'm in boost (every opportunity), not to mention my wallet filling bottles.

Turbo is where you want to be, but it's not cheap you'll see!

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

Yeah the general rule for turboing a car is to make a budget and double it. I did that and let me tell you nothing is more true!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ditto, stuff adds up quickly as you go along. You can do a hotside fab for cheap using a cheaper turbo and still work well tho. You'd have to fab it all yourself to get a savings.

But the rest of the car needs to be build to handle all the power for any modification you make. nitrous, supercharger, turbo, heads/cam.... all need fresh tranny, fresh suspension and possibly rear end...

Honestly, a mild heads/cam package will get you 400-425 hp and still be very driveable. A turbo setup on stock motor will drive like stock and get about same mileage until you get on the throttle, but it wont likely be as cheap as a cam/heads swap depending on the parts you get. Plus you have to change out alot of the engine bay to fit the turbo stuff.

Then again a n/a motor needs good headers and so does a blower build. Thats extra expense.. a turbo build involves fabbed headers but you could possibly use stock manifolds to make a hotside and get 400-450hp. Or build a simple log for cheap...cheaper than a set of headers for these cars.

Nitrous is the best bang for buck mod. can spray a 150 hit on a bolt on L98 for about 375-400whp. Thats getting it done for 500-600 bucks.

I just think 400hp on motor is not enough to justify a turbo build. I'd shoot for 500.

jeremymsl

see thats what i was thinking but my thing is could the stock motor take that?? i mean like i said befor any of this id swap my tranny for a T56, but to do a 150-200 shot of nos wouldnt i have to build the motor? so thats a good 3-5 grand then after all that then wouldnt it be better to just get a turbo sense its built anyways?

roachjuice

see this is why i went with a dodge omni. i havent found anything expensive about it yet.
for everyone saying that its gonna be expensive. let me break it down for you.
ok
ebay fmic 120 shipped
turbo (holset hx35 for reference) 250-300
for fueling 255 walbro 120 max
injectors hell get some svo injectors then if thats not enough add some 9th and 10th injectors and a hobbs switch. the injectors will spray 6in or so in front of the throttle body and add extra fuel when in boost. turbo dodge people have been doing this for years. grab the 5th injectors off of volvo and vw cars in the junkyard
piping. this can be tricky if you make it tricky. advice buy a builder kit and throw away the silicone couplers they provide. mock a piping setup and get some 4 pyl silicone and good tbolt clamps.
wideband o2. aem. get one on ebay for 200 bux
your looking at what 1000 bux max?
im not including headers as where i have no clue where to begin. if i were you id keep the stock manifolds and make the y pipe come up from under the car to the passenger side. then you can weld a turbo flange on that then make a downpipe. so your looking at 1200 bux max? thats if stuff holds together. speaking of holding together wasnt there a guy who had a fully bult sbc in a thirdgen that was turbo and it blew up in 2 passes then he went and bought a junkyard 2 bolt main 350 out of a van and put down 700whp? it all depends on how much detonation the pistons can take. just run some 11:5 a/f and it should be good at 8psi. or just get a nitrous kit and save all the headache of installing anything and just runs some lines and wires and your done.

honestly if i had to do it over again id just run nitrous. stall and some nitrous 75-125 shot it would have ran good. everything else that i did didnt do a dam thing. i did headers,cam,intake, all free mods,3.42 gears, full exhaust. hell stock i went 15.1@88. modded i went 15.4@90. BIG waste of time. just spray it. and at the track get some slicks.

jeremymsl

And how much would a head cam swap drop my milage if i wanted to get to 400hp? i could do a combo of that and then like a 35-50 shot of nos?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It doesnt matter what power adder you use really... nitrous has more of a "shock" to the internals since the power hit is instantaneous than a turbo or blower, so nitrous can be alittle tougher on the internals but a good conditions stock motor can handle a 150 shot well tuned.

if you are worried about a 150 hit at once, just install a progressive controller, hit it with 50 and ramp in to 150 across 1000 rpms or so.

You can turbo the stock motor just fine, as others in this thread have done so. A rebuilt motor for that application is always best for strength and long term reliability tho, but not necessary for 400-450hp.

You then got to think about miscellaneous items to make each setup work well andthen figure out how the hell you are going to tune it.

Nitrous is just simple jet changes for tuning air fuel. Timing needs controlled by a timing retard function either in an ignition box or seperate controller. Easiest system to setup.

Turbo/blower will also need an ignition system for hotter spark and timing retard control which is best done in the ECM. For boost, you will need to swap ECM's for a 2 or 3 bar capable MAP sensor setup with fueling tables to handle above 100KPA. Easiest way is 730 ecm swap if not already a speed density car, and then run turbo truck code $59. OR you can run the EBL system which is abit more money but works well from what I hear. Generally associated with TBI systems but it works for others as well.

Tuning takes alot more effort on that setup than nitrous only.

heads/cam needs tuning as well but can use MAF or SD... Only operating to 100 kpa range if SD so alot less areas to tune than with boosted setups. MAF tuning is fairly straight forward and easy with the 6E setups from 89. Thats my preference.

It all comes down to what you want to do and how much you can do yourself, and ofcourse price....

For 400-450hp on motor, a good heads/cam package is doable and sounds so much cooler. It may not be as "streetable" as a stock motor with nitrous or blower/turbo, but is definately a driveable setup that you can still daily drive.
Only thing to worry there is how high rpm wise you spin it. RPM's will kill the rods more so than more power...so a blower/turbo setup can be very reliable as they will make the power at lower rpms than a heads/cam setup.

Each have their advantages and disadvantages.

roachjuice

yea i forgot about retarding timing. on nitrous i think you need to run a step colder plug if im not mistaking. i would just spray it. as stated above. get a progressive nitrous kit. the shock wont be as bad. turbos can also "hit" like nitrous. lag,lag,lag ,BOOOOOOOSSSSTTTT lol. may i ask why 400hp? example. guy i used to work with had a 91 350 tpi camaro. mods were shorty headers,tune,some huge thumpy cam,head work, 3000 stall,3:73s,exhaust and a 150 wet shot. all motor the car went 13.5's@104 or something. this is with slicks mind you. next weekend he went out on the 150 shot and no slicks (he forgot them) and clicked off a 13.3@118 or something crazy along those lines. guy was roasting them half way down the track! 60ft was 2.8 lol.@ 118mph trap speed your smoking alot of cars on the street.

jeremymsl

so wait, im not fully understanding all this, but from what you guys are saying i could just get some headers and an msd ignition after my tranny swap and just do a 100-150 shot of nos and get to the 400 hp threshold? without having to build my engin or anything? i really hope thats true! i mean this is my daily driver i just wanna be able to take it to the strip if i ever felt like it and have some fun even tho iv never done it befor and be able to just show off on the highway if i ever passed a big headed ***** haha, its not like id be draggin it constantly or anything

roachjuice

just because you have hp doesnt mean it will run awesome. ignition system is just gonna lighten your wallet. you dont need an aftermarket system. cold plugs, nitrous, headers, 3000 stall, gears, and maybe a 255 pump. make sure you get a wet nitrous system. which is gas and nitrous sprayed in the intake. dry is just asking for trouble. i would invest in a wideband o2 also. keep an eye on things.

jeremymsl

alright sorry im pretty new to all this haha, so what are 3000 stall cold plugs and you mean rear axle gears? woulnt the gears screw up my milage? this is still my daily driver haha, and i dont see the problem with a dry system? its just the extra fuel is put in thru the injectors rather than the intake?

roachjuice

if you run a dry system then you need huge injectors to compensate for the nitrous. otherwise your gonna lean out the motor and have ash trays for pistons. leaner is meaner but too lean will f stuff up. not a good combo. wet kit is easy, just hook it up to the schrader valve on the fuel rail. spray fuel and nitrous. ive only messed with nitrous one time in an ls1 car. it went from 12.8 to a 11.6 with a 125 shot on top of his other mods. this was on a stock trans and converter. car hauled ***. yes i mean rear axle gears. dont worry about mileage. what gears do you have now? if you have like 3:23 or a 3:42 i wouldnt mess with it. if you do a stall converter i would suggest a 3000. 2500 is a bit to tight. i dont think it will get you close to 400hp but it will be a bad ***. the cold plugs. i mean spark plugs. you need a step colder on the plug to run over a 75 or a 100 shot. prevents detonation. which is bad. which will fry the pistons or break ring lands. not good. the beauty about the nitrous kit is that the nitrous is adjustable. you can get pills. range from 25-150 shot and mess with them. dont get greedy. more nitrous you use the bigger the strain on the engine and the more nitrous you will use.

jeremymsl

Just went out and checked and i have 2.77 gears, what is the stall? what dose it do? and ya your right, but wouldnt i have to get a new or 2nd fuel pump to run a wet system tho? and wouldnt colder plugs be bad for daily driving sense thats what id be doing 99% of the time?

roachjuice

stall converter. part of the transmission. google it. no on the 2nd pump. and no on the colder plugs. it wont hurt anything. gear swap it or a whole rear end.

roachjuice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy90t...eature=related
good example of what a stall does just driving normal. this is a 3000 stall on a gto. sounds like trans slipping but its not. brings the rpms up from like 1500 to 3000 on up. kinda hard to explain. it wont make power but it will put the powerband where it supposed be.

roachjuice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANJSc...eature=related
another of the same car. but from a dead stop.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

ignition system like a mallory 685 has nitrous system features that makes it well worth the money. Its not hard to wire in either.

The unit has a window switch and a timing retard function. Window switch is a rpm switch that activates nitrous at a certain rpm and turns if off after a certain rpm. This is useful so you dont engage nitrous at a too low rpm when you go wide open. Most nitrous systems use a TPS or WOT sensor switch and if you go WOT at 2500 rpm, the nitrous would activate and that could be catastrophic. Generally want to be above 3000 rpm. The window switch is also helpful to turn nitrous off just in case something happens like a driveshaft breaks and the motor screams to the rev limiter. You dont want to be spraying nitrous while on the rev limiter. Or even if the WOT switch fails, or nitrous solenoid sticks open. Safety is important with nitrous systems.

Timing retard enables you to run spray without changing your base timing or chip tune. That way you can run a n/a tune for your all motor daily driver needs, then arm the nitrous system and the 685 unit will pull whatever timing you want it to when the nitrous turns on. Its a must have or else you will have to run a nitrous tune all the time which gives up alot of power on motor.