Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

take the poll....which would you rather have and why?

BORLAZ06

I like our standard setup (springs). Coil overs to me is jus plain ****. Our cars handle great with good performance springs. I dont see why Id own coil overs other than adjustability (wow). My car already as is handles jus as good as a new vette with skinnier tires. I couldnt imagine anything more, its not like I autocross. Well this is what I think.

REVLIMIT

It counts what your doing...drag racing or taking turns. If your drag racing the coil overs are way better because their alittle lighter. As for turn taking the coil overs are a little better at handling with bumps and what not. But the top strut mount is kinda weak. So it would be suggested that you weld up the strut top and put a STB. I decided to keep my stock set up because I felt that the coil overs werent worth the extra $400.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

alright well lets say the prices are the same since they are essentially if you think about it......

what would you want then?

also a stb should be used anyway so lets say you have everything even a tubular k member and now you either need a spring perch a arm or a coil over kit.



which would you guys rather have.....?

Dewey316

i would use the stock spring pearch setup. but then again i like to turn, and i don't trust the way the coil overs mount in our cars for handling alot of cornering force.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

interesting point, why would they be so popular in racing applications where even more force is applied?

remember, i'm not trying to contradict....just asking.

SpeedCat86

Coil-overs in general, are popular in racing because they are more compact than a separate spring and shock, and they offer easier height and preload adjustment.
A disadvantage is that if you have to replace your shock/strut, you have to release the spring, too. Keep in mind that struts and shocks do not hold up the weight of the car. The springs are responsible for that, the shock absorbers only provide damping.

Most imports that they offer coil-overs for already come with coil-over strut suspensions, so the strut mounts are already designed for the additional weight-bearing capacity.

On a 3rdGen, the front springs are mounted between the K-member and the A-arm, which, if you haven't been under a 3rdGen lately, are pretty massive pieces. The strut towers serve to locate the upper end of the wheel spindle, not support the weight of the car.

I agree with RevLimit that Coil-overs would be fine on a drag-specific car, but I just don't trust the strut towers for extended street/road use. Take a look under your hood. There are only three bolds holding the top of the strut, and they aren't all that big. If you need adjustable ride height, or weight jacking capability, then a set of Ground Control adjustable spring perches would do you just fine.

In fact, changing a 3rdGen to coil-overs is illegal for most SCCA Stock, Street Prepared, and Improved Touring classes, as well as American Sedan. You would go straight to Modified (Auto-X) or GT, and you don't want to be in that unless you're driving one of Paul Gentilozzi's old cars.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

so why is it so bad for thirdgens, the weight then?

if your using new tubular a arms that relocate the strut point to better take advantage of the coilovers problems would this not be solved then?

i think i understand what your getting at which seems to be unless your 1/4 draging it or have the money (alot of it) to fix broken parts, one should steer away from this sort of setup.

or am i off base?

i look to the advantage of it simply to have more room for the turbos and the header setup while giving the car a cleaner appearance. but if i can't drive this thing on the street without fear of the tubular pieces breaking or the coilovers not suporting then why would i ever want to pay the 1,000 for the setup?

at the same time, going tubular and using the stock springs is pointless to me. it doesn't free up any room and the weight savings is very little.

i'm at a loss.....

87daddyformula

I might not be as experienced as some of the others on this forum but I think that coil overs are the way to go if this car is not your only mode of transportation. I don't know personnally but I think that the coil overs would be a little too harsh on the rest of the car during normal everyday driving, seeing as how coil overs are specifically made for racing (1320 or auto-x). Now if you have another car to rely on for your daily commute I would say definately go for it. It seems to me that coil overs would also be more convenient in a racing set up becasue they are fully adjustable, easily accessed, and less bulky then factory suspension which in turn saves you weight on the nose of the car. So, simply stated, I would leave the factory set up for everyday use but use coil overs if you race the car.

Not an expert opinion but an opinion non the less

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

street car.............5,000 miles a year. i build it to drive it.


so far the only valid bad-point i've heard for the coil overs is that now all the support is resting on the caster/camber plates. is this correct?

if so, then what could i do to remedy this situation.

i want the extra room..........the whole point of the ordeal. racing and weight saving is all grand but it isn't the main objective. i will not sacrifice durability over cool factor.

i don't plan to jump hills with the things but it needs to hold up to normal street cruising.

will or will they not work? if not, then why?

Dewey316

the biggest problem i see, is that even if you do solve the mounting of the strut mount, and the weakness of the mounting plate, the car is STILL being supported by those flimsy strut towers , the way the stock suspension is set up, the wieght is supported by the front framerails (well k-member, which is connected to the fraimrails).

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i see your point..........however when the piece is actually resting on this sort of plate that comes with these kits how is that possible. the spring has a inverted perch that evenly distributes the weight without putting any more stress on the actual caster/camber plate?

just trying to make sure all areas are coverd, please correct me if i'm wrong!

89ProchargedROC

one thing you guys have to remember is that the weight of the springs are much lighter now too....the stock style springs are much heavier

i know of a lot of coil over'd cars that are driven A LOT and dont have any problems

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

yeah, the more i research the more i find out that those who don't prefer them can't afford them or just don't want to pay to have them. more often then not they really don't know what they are talking about and do more harm then good by trying to stop others.

not that this is the case as i greatly appreciate everyones input, but i haven't found any real logic to put them down.

once again i'm off into a frontier very few here seem to go.....for once i wish i had something on my car that someone else knew how to do or had done before.

CrazyHawaiian

Thats a pretty bold statement there. If you dont plan to fit in any 'classes' for racing and you're willing to drop the cash then go for it. I'd put it in the same category as IRS. Very pricey and probably not needed, but its cool and it can be done. Honestly, probably nobody has any real facts why it cant be done. People dont trust it because of their gut feeling. Heavy car going fast around turns, all that force on strut towers. The strut mount dosnt support all that weight. Most of the force is on the strut tower itself (the thing the strut mount bolt onto). If you look, its obvious it wasnt designed to support the weight of the car (compare it to the strut towers on a 4th gen and you'll see what I mean, compare how they are constructed ...). I'm sure with some fab strengthening work you could make it strong enough to handle roadracing. German-Motorsport has pretty much proven that. But you dont do that stuff anyway, so it dosnt really matter. And with the ammount of driving you do in the car, it shouldnt matter anyway. Some guy is selling a used Art Morrison kit for under $800, search the classifieds (bout a month old). Alot of people who do roadrace could go the coilover route, but you have to go with what you trust. And you have to respect how things were designed. I trust something (with my life) when its doing what it was designed to do. Without that trust I could never push it to the limit on the track. Thats my .02

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

i don't see what's so bold about it......

SpeedCat86

I don't think that we (RevLimit, Crazy Hawiian and myself) are against coil-overs because they cost more (which they do), but because we doubt the long-term effects of putting an extra load on a part of the unibody that wasn't designed for it. I understand that the kit uses a perch that goes on the underside of the wheelwell. That makes some sense, but I'm still not sure on the wheelwell itself. If you only plan on driving the car a couple thousand miles a year, then you'll probably be OK. I wouldnt feel right having them on my car unless I beefed up the strut towers.. ( I drive 10-15K miles a year) I'd have to check them every time I hit a big bump or a pothole. (Which happens around here every time I drive somewhere) Call me chicken, but i've smashed up a lot of cars, and i've seen lots of parts fail in unusual, unexpected ways.

You quote extra engine bay space as one of the reasons for coil-overs. If memory, and photos of the 3rdGen engine bay serve, the spring pockets are mounted outboard of the front frame 'rails' so unless you are planning on running headers or turbo downpipes through the suspension, I don't see that it makes that much difference. A K-member makes more sense in that regard, but hey, whatever you think you need.

As far as my views on racing and coil-overs, coil-over-shock setups you see are mostly fitted to Spec Racers, or Formula (FF, FV) or other purpose built racers, cars where space and weight are critical, as every one has the same engine or chassis. If you are to the point where you need to remove the weight of the spring perches on your Camaro, you are truly hardcore.
Street cars and coil-overs: The reason you see so many imports talking about coil-overs is that they use a true Macpherson strut suspension where the spring already rides on the strut. Most front wheel drive passenger cars use this setup on the front, if not on all four corners because it is compact, and easy to package.

These are my reasons. Call it reason, call it a gut feeling, but this is what I think. I hope this and my previous posts give enough evidence so that you know the reasons behind my opinions.

BTW, Kandied, your bold statement was that you implied that those of us who were not in favor of the coil-over conversion object solely because we cannot afford it, and that because we can't afford them, that no one should have them. To quote you, we're 'doing more harm than good' Maybe we just have different requirements for the 'ideal' F-body suspension.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

see that's what happens when things are assumed and not just asked! i did say that and that's how the majority of people whom i have spoken with or dealt with have often made things to be.

hense the reason i said no one here necessarily.

as far as your statements they are all great points of views and i completely agree with all of you guys. i hadn't even considered the setup until i decided to run what i'm running where the room is very important. that little bit of room can make all the difference.

i do believe that the extra weight on one particular area isn't necessarily a good idea but i also feel that this can be countered with things like strut tower braces and the like.

the opinions of everyone here are certainly respected and there is no call for any disagreement. the statements i made were general and purely in a form that is more regaurded to the average "unknowing" person.

however, i do think that a subject much like this is something that should not be commented on unless one has experience, while opinions like those of yours are certainly worth expressing and greatly taken into consideration no one here has stated that they have direct knowledge of the subject hense the reason why i didn't point any one out or truly try to argue something.

were all learning here right?

(BR)G-Machine

I was just doing a search on coil overs and read this puppy and was flabergasted! You guys make alot of valid points about the strut bearings beaking with the coil overs and I think that that is valid but they play HUGE dividends on handling from what I have read on vechicle dynamics.

Coil overs are 100% about crossweight tuning and you cant talk about coil overs without talking about that. Crosswieghts out shadow the wieght savings ten fold. Crosswieght tuning is changing the front ends ride hieghts to change the wieght resting on each peticular wheel because the most wieght will transfer to the highest wheel. I am sure you guys know about crosswieghts, though. I didnt until I did some serious suspension research, so if there is anyone out there who doesnt know about them they are a must read.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Whether or not you have that plate doesn't change the fact that the whole inner fender area is still weak. This is the issue that people are talking about. The stresses extend FAR beyond the area where that spring plate mounts. The whole inner fender absorbs the shock, but is not designed to absorb the severe amount of shock it's going to receive with a coilover setup. The caster/camber plate is the least of your concerns. The thin tin inner fender that the caster/camber plate transfers 100% of the force through is the concern.

german-motorsport

COILS PLSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! If the car in use is lite!

Less weight
easy to work on
handels
blabla the topic is stone old and was raped 10000 times before!
We havent seen any prof or amature racer in the touring car scene without them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The kits we got way back then where all something to unpack and rework!

Attention!Some shocks don´t fit in dia!

For the "Nader" supporters no problems for 9years!

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

that thin metal is pretty damn strong then....


i like them and haven't had any problems either.

Hunter Motorsports

I will make one final point that has been overlooked here...

But first, all the reasons everyone has stated for the pros-cons of coil-overs are very valid - except for the corner weighting (cross weighting) issue. This is not an advantage exclusive to coil-overs, as it has already been stated - if you want adjustability - use adjustable spring perches and racing springs (Nascar type 5.5" O.D.) like the ones available from Ground Control.

The other MAJOR issue I see with using coil-overs is that you are using up valuable space in the fender that could (and should) be used to put bigger wheels and tires. Now - of course this is does not apply if you are drag racing and running skinnies - or if you really don't care abour how much rubber you have under the front of the car. The spring and perch around the strut takes up that extra space.

If you want to put on coil-overs - fill your boots.

Don't expext to out-handle the cars that don't have them.

"We havent seen any prof or amature racer in the touring car scene without them"

Well - we also have never seen any real - winning - ThirdGen road race car with them.

AGood2.8

You are such a pompus ***. "no one buys them because they can't afford them"- your a putz. As for your quote above?- take a closer look the "original can area" on the car pictured. note to self: extensive welding and modification done (would love to see a pic of the top side, Have asked him before for one, still no answer), AND thats a striped down (lightened) race car and not a full weight street car which also matters very much.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

right..... right.... what ever you say internet tough guy.

AGood2.8; all you ever do is try to start things with people rather then just stating a prominent point and yet you talk alot of $#*! to people, but rarely ever offer any valid advice. How can you claim to know so much yet hardly have anything unique done to your car. you continue to amaze me.


the whole point being is that if you want to use coilovers you can. plenty of people do and have no problems. they are cons and pros, some of you need to get over it. there is nothing wrong with not wanting them or even trusting them but at least know a little bit about them so you don't give people the wrong impression.

Dewey316

talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

in all the threads i have read from both you (kandied) and agood2.8, i can really say, that at least agood2.8 has something to talk about other than his pocket book. every thread you reply to, you assume that because we don't like the most expensive option in the group, it is because we can't afford it. is this some sort of complex you have? not satisfied with you income kandied? need to feel good about yourself on the internet?

the point is, when was the last time YOU really contributed to a thread? i know i can find at least a few where agood was the ONLY person who replied to thread to tell the person about some obscure suspension setting.

AGood2.8

See here cowboy- My car is fast through the twisties- point blank. Your car needs the "I bought the most expensive stuff out there so it must be fast looking right?" but can't tune it and drive it. Know when to shut your mouth fool. My car will run circles on you.

AGood2.8

Can your car boast this without being embarassed? Remember, I live in the hot rod capital of the world, So. Calif. There is alot of very fast sh*t here son, but nothing on the street can take me through a corner.

Edit: Hey I made 1000 post this time

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

why do you have to bring my car into this? you both talk to much.

CrazyHawaiian

LOL!

Earlier ...

To tell you the truth Kandied, AGood2.8 (aka AFGT) has alot of hardcore stuff done to his car. People usually assume things when they find out its a V6, but they dont usually realize that his car is built and tuned to handle, not go down the 1/4 mile strip. He knows his suspension stuff.

Anyway, back to the original post, I'm still happy with my OE style spring setup. By using custom specific rate linear springs and adjustable spring pertches, I've got a really good street setup for my 18" wheels. The stance is right where I want it, and the car has even less rubbing or clearance issues than it did with the Eibach Sportlines and 17's! I will be using the same setup (custom spring, spring pertch) for my track roadrace/drift car and its going to work out great. I dont have the complete adjustability the coilovers would give you, but still alot of potential to tune the car to do what I want.