HCR13

iTrader: (5)

My car is starting to shake when I hit the 65+mph mark, the shop says I need new pitman arm, idler arm, and center link. I bought the idler arm and center link, but I can't find a pitman arm for my 87 Trans Am. I checked all the major websites and autostores (Jegs, Summit, Autozone, Advance etc) and no one seems to sell pitman arms for 82 92 F-bodies. They have them for GenII and GenIV, but no GenIII. The guy at O'Reilys (sp?) looked it up in the Moog p/n book they have behind the counter and they don't make them... Is there something weird with GenIII pitman arms (like if they don't exist) or am I going to go out into the boneyard to pull one off? If anyone can find a pitman arm for an 87 T.A. please let me know. Thank You.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

why are they saying you need a pitman arm?
normally the pitman arm doesn't wear out & is considered a non wear item.

they can be damaged from a wreck, being hit by something, or they will wear if the nut holding it to the gear box is left loose or if the nut holding the center link is loose & the center link stud is able to move in the pitman arm.

AlkyIROC

I agree. If the alignment shop says your pitman arm is worn out it's either really worn out or damaged as mentioned above or they're lying about what your car needs.

Take it to another alignment shop and have it checked again.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

found a used one on ebay in less than 5 seconds. Try searching a little harder.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, it sounds like alot of bs to me also, but I figured if it was possible, why not replace it. The car is 20yrs old, couldn't hurt. But I'll look under there myself and take it other places for more opinions. Thanks for the input.

AlkyIROC

As mentioned above, it's a non wearable item. The pitman arm is a chuck of metal. The third gen pitman arm is a specific length compared to other GM pitman arms such as from an S10 or a G-body. They all have about a 2" drop to them. It has a splined hole that is pressed onto the sector shaft of the steering box. The other end just has a hole that a center link rod end fits into.

If the center link wasn't tight enough and it wore out the hole in the pitman arm then you'll be needing a new center link. They didn't quote you for that.

It's highly unlikely that the pitman arm is loose on the steering box. If it is then the sector shaft will be worn out also. They didn't quote you for a steering box.

That only leaves damage. Minor damage (slightly bent) isn't going to be visually detectable and major damage will make the car difficult if not impossible to drive.

Now first gen pitman arms were designed differently. On the end of the pitman arm was the ball socket for the centerlink etc instead of a hole. They could wear out and needed to be changed but GM hasn't used that style of pitman arm in decades.

Somebody is pulling your leg telling you that the pitman arm is worn out.
It sounds like you're going to be replacing a solid chunk of steel with another solid chuck of steel. Hey, you never know. Maybe a previous owner welded up the old pitman arm for some reason and that's a good enough reson to replace it.

As I already mentioned. Get it inspected by someone else and get a second opinion on what parts it needs.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

Most definitely will. I already have the idler arms and the centerlink. I'm going to go ahead and replace those and get the tires aligned and hope that fixes the high-speed shaking...Thanks again guys.

djwimbo

First of all, it may be listed as a "non wear" item, but that DOES NOT mean it can't wear out. Mine are. B/c it's a steering box style front end, there are 4 major components to the steering. See link http://www.spohn.net/product.cfm?productid=1374
alright, since all of these are based off of a ball joint type design, after time they wear out, just like ball joints. The center link attaches both tie-rods together and connect them to the steering box. The idler arm should be replaced at the same time due to similar wear and while you're there it just makes sense to replace it.
I'm not saying that it IS the problem but it is possible if they're worn that much. if you have a jack or a lift pick up the front of the car & support it on jack stands. Grab the front of the tire w/ the vehicle in the air and see if you can "turn" the wheel back and forth as if you were steering it ever so slightly. If it feels loose, as if there's slack in the movement from pulling to pushing back and forth. The "ball joint" type pivots in the steering linkage are worn out. This is the case w/ my 91. Very common on vehicles I inspect at work and THEY DO WEAR OUT. I don't know what you've spent so far but spohn sells a rebuild kit w/ ball joints and all the steering replacement parts. I'd recommend it, and have it aligned if not fully repaired by a professional. Steering/ball joints are kinda like brakes - you DO NOT want to mess 'em up.

If you replace the steering linkage, ball joints and service the front wheel bearings, that pretty much covers what could be causing your problem. Unless it's a tire/wheel issue. WHich is also possible that you've thrown a wheel weight off, or that the tires are now showing a "Road Force" issue. See if your local shop can Road Force balance the tires when you get it aligned.

I hope that helped, i just don't want you to replace parts that aren't bad. good luck

AlkyIROC

The ball socket end of the center link can wear out but it's attached to the pitman arm through a hole in the pitman arm and bolted in. Unless the cotter pin fell out and the nut backed off causing the ball socket shaft to wear out the hole in the pitman arm, the pitman arm isn't going to "wear out".

Any of the steering ball socket ends (tie rod ends etc) can wear out as can the idler arm but the pitman arm isn't a wearable item. It would be like saying your steering arms are worn out. Those are the pieces which are part of the spindles that the tie rod ends attach to. They don't wear unless some other part caused damage.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

I'm crawling under the car tomorrow and I'll try to take as many appropriate pics and maybe they can tell a story (of course, not as much as a trained mechanic in real life) but we can figure out the issue with the pitman arms...

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Stephen pretty much said it all. There's nothing there to "figure out". It's just a dumb chunk of metal with 2 holes in it. No wear parts.

Basically the front end shop has sent you on a wild goose chase.

If the joint where the center link fastens to the Pitman arm is loose, you have about 99.999997% odds that the only failed part is the center link.

Pics won't really show anything. Just change out the center link, and move on.

djwimbo

both the center link and the tie-rods/pitmans have ball socket style joints. ... good pic of all components on the link given previously. If you're in there fixing one known problem, it wouldn't make and sense not to replace all the worn parts. once you get underneath the car, see if you can see the movement of the joints and/or looseness. if there are grease fittings at each of these and they have not been greased regularly, the ball sockets will wear out over time. Since all the pieces of the linkage have these ball type socket connections, they should all be replaced. If you have a pry bar, and they're as bad as you say, you should be able to see movement in between the two pieces connected throught the joints when pryed on. See if you can move the two apart, as if you're prying off a diff cover that's stuck on. If you can see movement in the joints or the boots of the joints are torn, they should be replaced. there should be 6 of these joints see http://www.spohn.net/productimages/f...nd_kit_big.jpg
not including the ball joints. the same goes for those too.
I had to do a good amount of recall work on this style steering for work and have seen many of them worn out. Most people ignore the fact that there's 6 joints not just the 4 on the tie-rods/pitmans.
good luck and take good pics for a better explaination.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There are no joints on the Pitman arm.

There's only one Pitman arm... not multipleThere are 2 joints on the idler arm, one on the center link (where it joins the Pitman arm), and 4 on the rod ends. No joints on the Pitman arm. Just a hole where the joint in the center link hooks up to it.

bilms01

After 15 years of doing steering and suspension and ASE certified Master Technician I have only replaced 1 pitman arm and it had a ball socket.
If you look at the picture on the link you posted you will not see a pitman arm. Next your procedure for inspecting the linkage is partially flawed, when you support the front end with jackstands or whatever you choose to use the suspension HAS to be as close to the angles as possible to normal driving. On some heavier vehicles I have had to go as far as tying the suspension in a loaded position. If they are not checked properly the diagnosis may be wrong either misdiagnosing worn or non-worn parts. Finally NEVER use a prybar or any tool other that bare hands and feel to check for any linkage movement. Pliers and prybars can and do show a new tie rod/center link and idler arm to appear "loose".
Not intending to accuse any one but that is the reason I quit turning wrenches for a living, there are too many so called mechanics in the field who either don't know how to do something properly or are just the type who would screw someone who doesn't know the difference without the courtesy of a reach around. I have worked with more than one. They really give a true technician a bad rep. A true Technician does it more for the fun than the $$$.

For HCR13 I would recommend finding another opinion and having the mechanic/technician physically show you the "loose" parts. Any uto Tech worth spending your money with will take the time to explain what he finds and show you what to look for campared to a known good part installed on a similar setup.

1st3rdgen23

Was your "mechanic" referring to the pitman arm or the IDLER ARM? As mentioned before, the pitman arm is a piece of steel w/ 2 holes and a bend in it that attaches to the steering box while the IDLER ARM, which is on the opposite side of the frame, does have a ball and socket joint that attaches to the center link. This piece (IDLER ARM) can wear out and does play a part in keeping you front end aligned. What it sounds like to me is that there has been a misunderstanding on all parties involved. Ask your mechanic to show you which piece needs to be replaced, and if it's the part on the pass. side frame rail, your local parts store will call that an IDLER ARM.

Joez88Camaro

Dude, have you ever been underneath a car in your entire life?

AlkyIROC

I wasn't going to say anything but most of that didn't make sense to me either.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

Well, I got under there today, I had already bought a center link and idler arm so I decided to change those today, I plan to do the rest of the steering system, so long as I keep getting paid at work. I was able to unbolt the idler arm and all the nuts/bolts to the center link. My problem now is that I can't get the centerlink loose from the tie rods and pitman arm. The pitman arm seems pretty sterdy, actually I didn't feel anything "loose". The was able to freely move the wheels, but thats because its on jack stands...How do I remove the center link? Do I need some sort of special tools?
Here are some pics,
idler arm

another angle of the idler arm

I believe this is the pitman arm/steering box

Here is a random shot. I can't figure out what it is...

one more...

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

I didn't take any pictures of the "after" part since, well, my hands were pretty grimmey from that lovely grease you see on those parts...but all the bolts are off from the center link, and the idler arm is "hanging loosely", but still wedged upon the centerlink

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If you have a new idler arm, don't bother taking the center link loose from it. Instead, scribe a mark around its mounting piece, so you can put the new one back in EXACTLY the same place as the old one was mounted.

Get your new tie rod ends at this time. Also, go ahead and get the adjusting sleeves.

The only joints you need to actually need to take apart, are the 2 where the outer tie rod ends attach to the spindles, and the 1 where the center link attaches to the Pitman arm.

You need a "pickle fork" to take them apart. It's a fork shaped thing that acts like a wedge, you stick it between the parts, and hit it with a hammer. It wedges them apart.

After scribing, remove the 2 idler arm bolts that hold it to the frame. Remove the ENTIRE steering linkage, as described. Lay it on the ground. Assemble your new steering linkage, except for the idler arm. Lay it on the ground right next to the old. Note that the tie rod ends are threaded opposite; the idea is that you should be able to screw one of the rod ends into each end of an adjusting sleeve, and then hold the rod ends still and turn the sleeve, to lengthen or shorten the whole deal, like a turnbuckle. Adjust the tie rod lengths using the sleeves until they're as close as possible to EXACTLY the same length as the old.

Mount the new idler arm onto the frame EXACTLY where the old one was before, using the scribe marks as your guide. Tighten the bolts to around 50-55 ft-lbs. Install the rod ends to the spindles, and the center link to the Pitman arm. Tighten the nuts to around 35-40 ft-lbs. Take the car IMMEDIATELY to an alignment shop.

Have it aligned like this: left caster +3°, right caster +3.5°; left camber -0.5°, right camber -1°, toe IN about .05".

{edit} OBTW: tigthen your sway bar end links. That's about the only useful piece of info in those pics, is that those are WAY WAY WAY loose. They should be tightened to the point that the bushings squeeze out to approx the same outer diameter as the washers that compress them.

bilms01

I have also on some occasions used a dead blow hammer and after removing the nuts on the tie rod at the steering knuckle hit the side of the knuckle a couple times ti knoch the tierods loose. Not superman hard, or enough to damage the knuckle eye. ONLY if you can't find a pickle fork.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

if your replacing the tie rods, no need in worrying about damaging them.
with the nut off, a nice solid hit or 2 on the top of the tie rod stud with a decent hammer will pop them right out.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

I got everything off fine (with the help of the pickle fork) and I bolted everything to the specs given. It needs to be aligned (but it needed that before I even started). A difference I've noted now is that my steering wheel is a little bit to the right when the wheels are straight. Its an aftermarket steering wheel. I drove it around the block and did not notice anything "bad" (besides my own paranoia). My turning radius didn't seem to decrease or increase for that matter. I'm hoping to get it to the mechanic on Friday, the very latest would be next Tuesday...

djwimbo

alright, calm down, i admit that i'm no genious when it comes to repairing vehicles. but i'm not exactly wet behind the ears anymore. I don't feel that i need to prove my intelligence to someone who isn't going to listen. what needs to be repaired isn't that difficult, minus the parts naming confusion, you still have the same problem being discussed. the biggest problem i have communicating with someone on how to fix stuff if definitions. i don't have the manual in front of me nor am i a GM tech (sry i work a better company, i just drive 'em cuz they're cheap), i can't be there to show you and i don't feel like arguing over something this simple. either way, if it has a ball socket in it, replace it. you see that grease coming out and leaving the "damp" look on the steering components. That isn't supposed to escape the boots of the ball sockets. It's there for lubrication, without lube or less amounts of it, parts wear. I don't know your mileage, but some people replace those parts by need or time.(not always trustworthy) If you've replaced the center link and the idler. now it's time to replace the tie-rods. this is where getting an alignment ASAFP afterwards is important, and make sure all nuts, bolts and cotter pins are in & installed before you drive it. The recommendations for setting a guessed alignment prior to installation is correct (sofakingdom's description 3 posts up). Since you are or will be replacing all the front links in the steering a pickle fork will work fine. I don't recommend it b/c it'll damage the boots on the ball sockets of GOOD parts. NAPA, Auto Zone, etc all carry pitman/tie-rod separators, that work great and don't damage parts if the correct size is used. It pushes the threaded portion through the piece it's fastened to, via a fork type stationary piece and a threaded bolt that is tightened to push the old part out. It works great and i've used them on dozens of cars before. Otherwise, notice the cone shape of the smooth part on the ball socket's threaded "bolt". The reason the old won't come apart is that this is stuck in the metal ... rust, friction, etc. if for example you were trying to free on of the tie-rods from the center link, take your BFH(not a dead blow, almost has to be a metal head to shock the metal parts. I use a 48oz Ball Peen, works great) and hit the center link at the point where the "bolt" passes through it. If you're trying to save the ball socket attached to the center link (not necissarliy your case) don't hit the tie-rod ends, only the solid metal part the tie-rod end attaches to. this method works but is frowned upon by some. the pickle fork has the least amount of fans. Be gentle on the spindles if using the BFH method. Depending on how soft the metal is, goin to town on it may not help.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That's OK, pretty typical actually; just a little bit of misadjustment is all it takes to cause that. If it's far enough off to bother you, adjust the left tie rod slightly shorter (say, ¼ turn), and the right one longer by an equal amount.

If you want to set the toe correctly, you can get pretty close if you do it like race car people do; with a string. First, center the wheel exactly, with the car moving, and leave it parked like that. Stretch out a piece of string exactly parallel to the centerline of the car, on each side, at the height of the center of the wheel; adjust the 2 tie rods such that on each wheel, the front edge of the tire is pointed inward about 1/32" compared to the rear edge of the tire. You might have to make an adjustment, then drive the car back and forth a few feet a couple of times to let everything settle back down, since I'm guessing you don't have any of those little turntable things for the tires to sit on that allow them to turn with basically no friction.

Your turning radius shouldn't change, regardless. Mostly you should just notice less play in the wheel. Maybe not no play, since your steering gear might need some adjustment; but hopefully, less.

HCR13

iTrader: (5)

Well I went to get the wheels aligned today (diffrent place) and everything went good. They didn't mention anything about a new pitman arm. They fixed the "off center" steering wheel as well. It seems to handle better now. I still haven't driven it past 60mph to check out the vibrating...