firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

So i just did bushings shocks struts etc steering and suspension is for all purposes new and solid/tight.

So I get the car aligned, i am told that it will not be possible to align it properly and get my wheel straight, this irks me but i say fine do it, and i'll see what i can do about straightening the steering wheel out later. Knowing 90% sure that everything is master keyed/splined and i cant. And upon searching when i get home i move that to 100% certain.

attached is a pic of the steering wheel, drove car in straigt line wheel is not

its bothering me ALOT screws with my turnsignal, blocks my view of the tach etc....

Never fear tho its a lifetime alignment so I will become a thorn in their side untill I'M HAPPY..

:SIDE NOTE: car has never been bent on the front end, steering wheel has been like this since the last alignment which was never right to begin with but i wasnt driving the car much so i let it lay.

Prior to that the wheel was centered and so was the alignment.

Anyone run into this issue? what happened what did you do?

my assumption is that the tierods are not the same length currently or they are and they shouldnt be.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Your alignment shop isn't very bright. Aligning the wheels & having the steering wheel straight are two totally different adjustments, although they afect each other, getting them correct does not depend on each other..

Get the alignment right, then take the steering wheel OFF the column & put it back on straight. Never try to have the steering wheel straight & align the wheels.

MADMAXGTA

iTrader: (1)

yea,I installed eibach springs and 17 inch rims then went to an alignment shop and my wheel was crooked when they were done,but the car drives sraight.So what I did was disconnect the steering shaft from the gear box had a buddy set my wheel straight then reconnected it.or you can just pull your wheel and set it straight.

$750 L98

AFAIK, there is only one way to put the steering wheel on, there is a notch that will be larger than the others on the splines. Same goes for the rag joint to the box. Check your box, do you have more play on one side or the other?

Mine looks just like yours, my box is shot on the left side for some reason, everything else including the steering wheel and alignment are installed/set correctly. Not looking forward to my box swap this weekend actually lol

RBob

iTrader: (1)

IIRC, the last time this problem was brought up the person installed the center link with the tie rod joints toward the front of the car. Where the center link should be installed with the tie rod nuts toward the front of the car.

The tie rod joints go toward the rear of the car next to the K-member.

Either that or the tie rods ends are too long and are bottoming out against each other in the adjuster.

RBob.

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

Wouldent that effect each side evenly?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I also think I recall seeing something about the inners & outers not being the same length, being installed in the incorrect position, and making adjustment of both correctly, impossible to achieve.

Sure you got the inners replaced with inners & the outers replaced with outers? Or other mis-replacement combination?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

the inner tie rods and outer ones are left and right hand thread, they cant be screwed up.

you cant move the steering wheel, its keyed, so is the steering box. The alignment was done without setting the wheel straight first.

take it back and have the alignment redone. If they are saying its impossible, they are idiots and hacks and should not be working on cars.

MADMAXGTA

iTrader: (1)

ROFL

radical82

I haven't been on an alignment rack for a number of years, but last time I was, centering the steering wheel was the last task to be done. It's quite simple, really. Make sure the steering wheel is close to centered before you start the alignment, then install the bar from the front seat to the wheel that holds it there. When the rest of the alignment is done, turn the tie rod adjusters an equal amount, which will move the center link and the steering wheel to the centered position. Recheck your toe setting, lock the tie rod adjusters down....

rybread11

Yeah, as far as I understand it, first thing is to set the wheel straight and then aline the wheels to that. Make sure thats how they are trying to do it.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The center link is asymmetrical where it mounts to the pitman arm and idler arm. Which offsets the tie rod mounting points.

RBob.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

That has always been my understanding & what I tried to say to do in the beginning. Align the tires first, then set the steering wheel straight.

SDIF

Do not remove your steering wheel. That is not the problem.


This is a soap box item for me. Most people cant align a car for XXXX. They are stupid Lazy XXX XXX. This is why I bought toe plates and caster camber gauges.

The tires can have the toe set so they are at zero, toe out or toe in regardless of the steering wheel angle. This is what the dumb xxx shop did and it is wrong. Can you understand this? If you turned the wheel to 1/4 lock and adjusted the tie rods to that the tires had zero toe. They would have zero toe but only in that position. The car would go strait and the wheel would be off center and you will have used up a portion of your steering capacity.

THe steering geometry is not centered.

Jack up the the front end of the car. Get it high in the air, because you are going to need to get under there for a while. Put jack stands under the frame rails so you do not spend the rest of you life under the car.

You are going to make two measurements

1. You must measure from the center of the pitman arm which is the shaft that turns coming from the steering box, to the idler arm’s pivot point’s center where it connects to the center link. (I.e. Pull tape from center of the shaft which is hollow to grease fitting where the idler arm connects to the center link.) Write down the measurement.



2. You must measure from the center of the idler arm's pivot point NOT WHERE IT ATTACHES TO THE CENTER LINK but where it rotates, grease fitting, to the pitman arm’s pivot point center where it connects to the center link. (I.e. Pull tape from grease fitting to grease fitting.) Write down the measurement.


Turn the steering wheel in until these measurements are the same. You have made an X, and the idler arm and pitman arm and the center link are forming a box or trapizoid. When you see how these links move in relationship to each other you will quickly understand.

If I knew how to post a picture I could show you.

When you get these measurements the same, I know the number but if I tell you you will not learn anything, go put some tape on the steering column and the steering wheel and draw a line on both pieces of tape so you can return the steering wheel to this position later on. (Do you understand this?) You are making a reference mark. Is the steering wheel centered now? I do not know. It may have previously been removed. BUT I do know that the geometry is centered.


Lower the car and set the toe. (If you want to know how I can tell you) If you take it to the shop, set the steering wheel to the lines you drew and have them align if from that position.

So why all the fuss on centering the steering? This is the same question asked by the grade school drop out running the alignment machine. The car’s alignment can be adjusted to show zero toe without the steering centered, but it will only be right when going in a strait line. If the end links are not the same length the Ackerman will go to hell in a hurry. The tires do not remain parallel to each other when negotiating a turn; the inside tire needs to turn more and the outside less. The General went to great lengths to properly engineer these ratios into the front end geometry and dropouts were not on the payroll. If the steering is not centered when toe is set the car will not behave in a predictable manner and will certainly turn differently from right to left.

Good Luck

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

believe me guys i get it, i know how it needs to be done. my conclusion was that they were just being lazy bums. its a lifetime alignment and they will get it right and me happy or i will get my money back.

at first i thought drove ok but after having driven it a bit more today its really wandery, this is probably brought on by the box not being centered when the wheels are. i've got another appointment set already to have them re do it..

1 other question, i informed them that the car has iroc springs under it, and should be aligned accordingly due to the lower ride height, they ignored that and according to the print out used 83-85 base model firebird specs. how much is this effecting things? or does someone have some great specs i should push on them?

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

most shops dont know how to properly align a lowered car, im sure they just did it to stock, but thats not whats causing the wheel to be off center.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

so here is the print from the alignment on friday, does anyone see anything that explains the wandery non recentering feel?

im guessing from my limited knowledge that it could use a little more toe in

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Wow the toe was totally changed... Before your wheels were pointing to the left alot so your steering wheel was probably turned to the right while driving.. Now it seems they've fixed that but the steering wheel is straight... For what it's worth, maybe setting the left toe to -2.00 and the right toe to +2.00 would allow the steering wheel to be straight again? But that's probably not the right way to do it...

nascarfan7

Couple things I noticed on that print out.

1. The Included Angle *should* be the same side to side. It's almost impossible to have it be exact side to side especially with an older car but that spread between left and right would have me looking at suspension components and bushings very closely.

2. Is that positive camber? You want one degree negative or a smidge more for best wear/handling compromise. Slightly more on the right side to compensate for road crown

3. The closer to the 4 degree max spec on negative caster the better. I find it provides good steering return and straight line stability. Again slightly more on the right to compensate for road crown

4. Toe looks ok. I like to use a little more toe in on used parts as opposed to all new parts.

In summary you really need a good alignment tech that knows how changing caster/camber/toe will effect SAI/Included Angle/scrub radias and how that will effect drivability and handling.

Deimos140

Nascarfan you can't adjust SAI. Did you notice how even the thrust angle changed? Firechicken I recognize the print out very well we run the same program. Your steering wheel was very far off. If you still have a problem and in CR I can probably adjust it for ya. Did you know that thirdgen's are one of the few cars with adjustable idler arms?

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

steering wheel was position hasnt changed much since the last time (a couple seasons ago) it was aligned, prior to that alignment the steering wheel was straight and the car drove straight it was just loose, so i did tie rods idler arm, and centerlink.. all of which was installed just how it cam off the car, the parts removed from the car had a significant difference in tie rod assembly length during that alignment i was convinced that they needed to be equaled out and so ever since then its had a cocked wheel.

deimos, you wouldnt happen to work at a firestone would ya? i presume i can use my lifetime status at any firestone service center.

i had this done in davenport cuz the clinton location argued with me on another car.. and just pushed really hard to sell stuff, did an inspection i specifically said not to do, etc.

back to topic

i do know that the idler is adjustable, my understanding is that you adjust it to make the centerlink level (assuming the car is level of course) perhaps square to the car is what im saying. im gonna see what they make it do sunday am i right to think it should have a bit more toe in to help the twitchy wandery feel or is it something else?

i do see that the thrust angle changed, does that indicate that the car may have moved mid process? all the bushings are new es poly so i cant see it moving around.

Deimos140

I work at sears but we use the same alignment program. If you ever put the drag front springs in good luck trying to adjust caster. I can adjust any car for alignments, it's more a matter of if I want to. Just tell them to make sure to use the wintoe program.

nascarfan7

I realize you can't adjust SAI. My point was for the poster to notice how far off the two sides are. The thrust angle, yes I noticed it changed.

What I was suggesting is that something may be off in the suspension. Looking at the measurements and how changing them affects the overall alignment one can look for problems that would affect the SAI/scrub radias and so on.

Deimos140

offset tires would affect the scrub radius anyways I was pointing out look how the sai and thrust angle changed. Meaning that something isn't right about the alignment they just performed. IE the car shifted on the plates or rolled. I wasn't arguing with ya.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

diemos are you talking front to rear offset ?

front tires are 225/60/15 25.6in dia and rears are 245/60/15 26.6in dia, according to a calculator that i found.. all wheels are 15x7 4.25in backspace

@ nascarfan, i feel the suspension is sound and secure, i see nothing bent twisted or broken, and its all been off the car in the last 3 weeks, as i did bushings shocks struts ball joints and strut mounts, i also went from base model v8 springs to used gm iroc springs.. car sits nice and flat and rides well aside from feeling wandery/twitchy/nervous with regard to staying centered....

we will see what its like tomorrow after they do it again..... when i got it done friday the tech didnt even test drive it.....not that i want him too, but i think if he had it would have gone right back on the rack.

what is sai, cross caster/camber exactly?

thrust angle is the direction the rear is wanting to push the car correct?

Guest

You actually can adjust SAI. You can fudge it a little in bolt hole slop, or you can install the Intrax kit. Most of the generic alignment shops like sears do not aloow their employess to adjust anything not shown on there monitor for the car entered into the machine. They do not consider the SAI to be adjustable because it really is not intended to be adjustable even though you do have just a tad bit of play in it and can be if someone does take the time to help you.

Dean

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

And the more SAI the better, and they should be equal too, correct?

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

ok so sunday went ok at best...

i gave the guy at the counter the symptoms of the wheel off center, and that the car is very nervous/wandery and will not even try to recenter itself out of a turn. remind him again that its got the iroc springs under it and that it should be treated accordingly.

they take it in, and out in 15mins, i cornered the tech at the car when he brought it around, saw that the wheel was straight, and asked about what else was done to cure the nervous, and lack of recenter. he gave me a blank stare and says "they only told me to center up the wheel, so i did" i took him for a ride and he agreed that it wasnt right still. i noticed on his sheet that he did not use an iroc for specs. again this info was not relayed from front desk to tech. we looked it over and i asked that he start over and treat it as an iroc. he agreed, and something like 45 minutes later we drove it again.

it felt less nervous and actually attempts to turn back when you take a corner but you have to give it some help, still more than i feel i shoud have to. i know a bit of the play in the wheel is the rag joint, i have a new one i just need to do it.

im kinda wondering if something in my steering box or pump is going south, lack of pressure or an internal leak in the box causing it to fight itself, i left the new alignment print in the car, i'll get it and post it a little later, i recall it has more toe now, thrust angle is smaller, and he ran out of adjustment to get all the way in the caster range for the iroc settings..

any other thoughts on why it doesnt like to steer back? i know its not going to pop back like a fwd will but i think it should do a bit more on its own

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

If one part is bad, needs to be replaced AND you already have it? Put the part in BEFORE you get it aligned.

If they center the steering wheel, then start replacing parts that affect the steering wheel alignment? You are very possibly messing it back up, undoing what you just paid them to do!

Besides that.....A sloppy rag joint could contribute to the alignment being allowed to wander.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Yeah definitely should fix everything that is problematic first... Whenever you change anything in the steering it could mess up the alignment and you'll have to do it again.. (I'm guilty of this but i didn't know beforehand unfortunately)

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

changing the rag is not going to mess up the alignment, you dont touch anything that would, theortically i could change the steering box and not change the alignment aside from steering wheel alignment again.......also there was no indication before replacing all the other worn stuff that the rag or box had issues the car drove ok shocks and struts were getting a bit bouncy and having to do them set me off doing the mounts and bushings swapping springs etc,

besides its a lifetime alignment.... they dont have much choice but to keep doing it.

anyone have part numbers for the rag joint eliminator setup?


also here is the current alignment sheet, i guess i read the wrong sheet (i only have 3 or 4 now, on the toe, the sheet for the last trip on the rack shows slight toe out....

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Changing the rag joint can put the steering wheel off center again.

Toe out will cause wandering when combined with positive camber.

A bad rag joint will also cause wandering.

They have the caster offset on the wrong side of the car. But if it doesn't pull then don't worry about it.

If the car doesn't have a wonder bar (steering brace) consider it as it will tighten up the steering.

RBob.

Deimos140

So yeah returnabilty would be helped by making caster more positive. SAI usually means bent parts I don't install kits, I fix the parts to correct SAI. Installing drag spring made my caster negative. Hopefully you get it figured out.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

you're kidding right?? If you do it like that the cancel cam will be way off and your turn signals won't work properly. You set center steering wheel (turn it, don't pull it and clock it) before aligning. Furthermore, your steering box will be off center and you run the risk of fugging up the worm gear ball tracks by oversteering in one direction. Also the box is tighter on center to prevent wandering at speed (gears are cut to mesh tighter there), you'll lose that also and you'll have to go "through" the tighter spot every time you turn in one direction (depending on what side it's off to)

If the wheel has been off and the center pos is unknown due to someone having done what Stephen just said, take the wheel off and mark where the cam cancels left and right, right dead smack in the middle is your center pos.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

well, i attempted to change the rag joint today, and found this



it appears to have been like this for some time, the break is dirty and corroded, and do not fit back together, indicating that its been rubbing at itself

ignore that its smashed that happened in the vice while doing the rivets to save the rest of the pieces. the rubber portion of the rag really doesnt look or feel that bad.

i put a small visegrips on the input of the steering box and there is some play and a pop/tap noise when you wiggle it back and forth. i can get my hands on another steering shaft for parts easily enough, i looked on ebay and can get a NOS shaft for about $130 complete and im considering it, though the rest of mine looks feels good, so im inclined to get that piece from a donor and put it back together, likely with a new box pump and hose.

Blind Driver

Have you considered a shaft from the aftermarket? I have heard good thing about Flaming River stuff.

Deimos140

flaming river makes good stuff I am runing a flaming river box with a comp engineering shaft.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

i got a piece from a donor shaft left over from something, its definately getting a steering box tho.

it has begun to puke fluid at the input side of the box, and the power assist is getting worse, and sporadicly doing wierd stuff, it felt almost normal making a turn sunday i had rpm up a bit 2500 or so, and then in the midst of the turn it tried to rip the wheel out of my hand to the opposite direction. i know your thinking pot hole, but this was on brand new pavement.

as for the flaming river and other aftermarket stuff, i dont think i need to spend that sort of money, its just a weekend cruiser/toy and the stock equipment worked fine up till last fall when i put it away.

will update after a new pump and box, hopefully it will be good news.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

well, new box and pump is on and the car seems to steer considerably better, certainly easier, there was very little power assist left in the old stuff so even if it wasnt the entire problem it was gonna need to be done anyways

. the car self centers better, im going to a different shop thurs for another alignment, this place is a bit more old school and is a private owned alignment shop that has been there and owned and operated by the same people for 20+ years. perhaps that will be better than the big chain stores who hire any tom dick or harry who went to automotive school for a year.

hopefully he can get this thing carving corners like the day it was built, everything that can wear out in the steering and suspension is new or near new.

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

well, that box was junk, so it got swapped out, too much slop to align.. 2nd reman box feels very good, i bleed air like the paper says, drive about 5 miles and the reman pump seems to have gone south...

sooo............... the saga continues, however even without power assist the wheel centers well and it drove straight as an arrow for 5 miles ish

Blind Driver

Since you're putting so much time and money into this, have you considered replacing/inspecting the p/s line? It could be kinked or collapsed. also replace/inspect the rubber return hose. When I replace my box and pump, I'll replace the silly p/s cooler line with an old Ford radiator looking unit and mount it somewhere in front of the LF tire. I replaced my ragjoint today, but it didn't help with my slop in the steering. Although my steering wheel is now off center

firechicken_3

iTrader: (4)

the line is new also......

i got the 2nd pump on this morning and have been driving it all day, the thing drives great now, just like it should. it do find it amazingly odd that i managed to buy a reman box and pump at the same time and they were both faulty. the box likely could have been adjusted to correct it, but since it was only on the car 3 days i opted to let oriellys deal with it. the pump im calling random failure on, it worked well with the first replacement box and the 2nd box for those few miles before giving a last nasty scream and going silent.

so in summary my binding and wandering and some of the slop was merely a worn out steering box. i believe it had some internal leaks in the valving which was making it fight itself and not want to center up and wander around.

most of the slop was the broken yoke on the rag joint, not sure what its really called but looks like a yoke to me.

so i'll call case closed on this one, im going to take it for an alignment again just to make sure its all kosher, simply because the upper strut mounts are in a place they have never been in before in the 11 years and 4 or 5 alignments the car has had before.
it will be worth the $40 to know that the tires arent eating themselves up.

Blind Driver

.

Blind Driver

Got a reman from A1-Cardone, installed it then noticed that the splined input shaft is 1/8" larger then my old one

Can't get another until Tuesday. I checked it over and it all looked good...oh,well