JPrevost

Okay, I need a new engine, my current 305 is burning oil and I can smell it. I've posted before about the engine swap etc. I know I'm getting a 350 but I'm not sure what I want yet, either the vortec head 330hp 350 or the zz4. The ZZ4 has aluminum heads and has a hydraulic roller cam while the 330hp has hydraulic flat tappet cam. These are two very big differences. Now for EGR, does the ZZ4 have EGR? Are they both 1 piece rear seals? Now for the TBI questions:
Do you think a 670 holley TB will work to make the projected hp? I've got SLP full exhaust etc. I'm stuck trying to pass emmisions and make hp. AAAHHHHH....

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

91Bird305

Z28 Boy dropped a 350HO in his car and kept his TBI system. E-mail him about it or go to my website in my sig and you will see a link to his webpage called "Brians 350HO RS" Hope this helps. I am going with the ZZ4 but I am converting to carb because I think it will be cheaper and I will get more hp out of the engine since that is what the company used to dyno the engine with. As for your emmisions, sorry man. You won't pass with these engines. Its no big deal where I live though or probably where Brian lives. I live in Michigan and they don't test here. Now I would wait until Brian actually runs his car in the 1/4 mile. That way you will know what to expect. Then try to find someone that carbed the 350HO. See what they run. That will be the decider for u. Same goes for the ZZ4. I cacluated all the stuff I need if I would keep TBI, then I calculated all the things I would need if I was to go to carb. Carb was the cheapest and GMPP uses carb on its engines when they were dynoed, kinda tells ya something eh? Its up to u though. Do the reasearch on both sides. Look for facts, not opioions.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited October 18, 2000).]

91Bird305

Yeah, Kevin has a good point. If emmisions are a problem where u live then I wouldn't get any of the engines I listed. I don't know to much about the LO5. I know someone did the swap. Look in some of the posts on here and look. What was the hp rating for the LO5? I hope its not like the LO3

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

Tas

L05 was the truck 350 from 1987 to 1995. Just like the L03 was the truck 305 from 1987 to 1995. The L05 was put into the fullsized Caprice just like the L03 got stuck in f-bodies. I think the L05 was 230 Hp in trucks and 210Hp in the cars. I could be wrong though. here is the replacemt crate engine:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/cart.asp?act...id=128&pid=100

Low power V8s make for great reliabilty. Their reliable short blocks are a great place to start builing power on. Little mods like intake and exaust really help. Big mods like heads and cam will make them into different beasts.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

91Bird305

Go with a LO5 then I guess. Its to bad emmisions are a big thing around u man. Hey why not a L98? He could build that up and that would be better then the LO5!

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

Tas

the L98 heads are way better than the L05 heads but the ZZ4/L98 heads are still from 1985. That was 15 years ago! Might as well go get the 50 state legal 23* trick flow heads for a little more than $850. If you look at the combusiton chambers they look a lot like LS1 combusion chambers.

91Bird305

But what if he just went with a L98 engine all together instead of a LO5? It would be emmisons legal and be more powerful than the LO5.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

Tas

depends on price.

91Bird305

Yeah true. But if it was close, I would go with the L98.

JPrevost

So let me get this straight. There is no way to put either the 330hp or the zz4 into my car? I thought they were 1 piece rear seals? Am I right? If so then they'll bolt right up to my trans. Okay, now you guys are saying the vortec heads don't have egr. This is bad. How am I going to pass emmisions in NJ? I really really don't want to get something with less than 300hp. AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! I HATE NJ. I'm living in Ohio for school. What about taking a vin from an older camaro? is that possible? I was so looking forward to this summer to put in a hp beast. Now you guys are telling me I can put in a l98 or lo5. This sucks!

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

JPrevost

Is there really no way to get those high perf engines to pass NJ emmisions? I have a 3" cat. There has to be a way to pass. I know EGR recycles the exhaust gas but how important is it to getting past the sniff test?

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

91Bird305

Hey Jon, I never said it wouldn't work. Hell the engine will fit fine. Both ZZ4 or 350HO crate engines. But you won't pass emmisons tests with these engines. If you want big HP go with the ZZ4 and (convert to a 750cfm carb, please no one attack me for saying that) but you won't pass emmisions. Its up to u.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

Tas

there are a ton of options just make sure the heads you want have EGR. Hell, I've been thinking of doing a .040 over LT1 with $600 scat 383 crank and LT4 hot cam kit. 385cid LT1

91Bird305

daaaammmnnnn

Scott C

How about a variation of the ZZ4? I bought mine from SDPC a few months ago. It's really a Caprice engine, which has the exact same crank, rods and pistons as the ZZ4. The Caprice engine has a 2-bolt block where the ZZ4 has a 4-bolt, but who really cares?

SDPC added Edelbrock heads with EGR, a Crane Compucam that's very similar to the ZZ4 cam, and LT4 1.6 roller rockers to increase the lift. I could not have bought the Caprice engine and swapped the same parts for the same price. Plus, it has a 12 month warranty.

Of course I am biased towards the Caprice/ZZ4 engine, but I've heard that the 350HO requires a few too many modifications to use a modern TBI, emmissions legal setup.

------------------
'92 RS, ZZ4 10:1 350, Edelbrock 6085 heads, Crane 208/214 467/482 cam, GM/LT4 1.6 true roller rockers, Holley Projection TBI intake, Holley 670 TBI, SLP/Jet-Hot 1-5/8" headers, Catco 3" cat, Flowmaster 3" catback, Hughes 2500 stall converter, stock 700R4, Auburn Pro posi w/3.42, 17x9" SS rims w/BFG tires, Medium Quasar Blue w/white SS stripes, 48,000 miles....

91Bird305

I heard about that on some thread before scott. How you could trasform the Caprice engine into the ZZ4. Good point.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

Tas

they are both 350s. Just get the same heads and cam and they are nearly identical. since they are roller cam engines. The engine will get valve float at 6500RPM before the rods would fail because the engine won't get that high of a RPM.

Tas

Since I live in California, I've been thinking of my next engine too(emissions legal). I want a single plane EFI intake, 350+ sized engine, no TPI, 1-3/4 SLP headers. So I can either get an LT1 or keep the GenI v8. BUT if I keep the gen1 v8 I will most likey have to put the stock TBI intake back on for inspection time once every 2 years.

for the Gen1 engine I like this intake for use with the above egnine and a 670 TBI:


There was a guy around here(forgot his name at the moment) with a single plane intaked TBI on a 350. He had vortec heads and was in the mid 13s. he was coming up on 12s when he got a $1500 weiand 'charger, carb, and 4"cowl hood.

If I wana leave TBI there are a bunch of single plane EFi intakes on my page.


------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

Tas

P.S. he skipped the 12s and went right to 11s if I remember right

JPrevost

I e-mailed sdpc2000 and they said that only the zz4 was roller, the 350ho was hydraulic flat tappet.

About the caprice engine and making it a zz4. I'm going to e-mail sdpc2000 and ask them how much a custom engine would cost with those edelbrock EGR heads. Another thing I want to make sure I'm understanding: the caprice 350 has the same crank, rods, and pistons as the zz4? The only difference is the heads, cam, and 2 bolt correct? If that's the case then either I go with the caprice engine or a build up short block and put on some egr heads. So EGR will let me pass emmisions (with stock TBI), and make over 320hp with a tuned carb? Yes...No..?
Thanks guys for the insite. I don't know what I'd do without this board.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

Scott C

Go to SDPC.com, click on "f-body", then "3rd gen", then "crate engines". You'll see 3 options for the Caprice engine. One with stock heads, one with "hi-perf" TBI heads and the one I got with the Edelbrock heads. The cam choices for these engines are very weak, so I had them degree-in a Crane Compucam that is more aggressive.

As far as emissions go, think of this: Edelbrock 6085 heads, Crane Compucam, any TBI intake with EGR and TBI are all emissions legal, so why would the entire engine NOT be legal?? A good custom chip or even better, Accel-DFI would insure that you pass emissions.

And yes, the Caprice engine has the exact same crank, rods, and 10:1 hypereutectic pistons as the ZZ4. I verified each part number in the GM Performance catalog.

And again, the 350HO/Vortec has a flat tappet cam and the ZZ4 has a roller cam. However, this should not be the deciding factor of what engine you chose. There is nothing wrong with a flat tappet cam.

------------------
'92 RS, ZZ4 10:1 350, Edelbrock 6085 heads, Crane 208/214 467/482 cam, GM/LT4 1.6 true roller rockers, Holley Projection TBI intake, Holley 670 TBI, SLP/Jet-Hot 1-5/8" headers, Catco 3" cat, Flowmaster 3" catback, Hughes 2500 stall converter, stock 700R4, Auburn Pro posi w/3.42, 17x9" SS rims w/BFG tires, Medium Quasar Blue w/white SS stripes, 48,000 miles....

JPrevost

Scott, I never knew that f-body option was right there on the first page. I feel stupid. Okay, that looks like an awesome deal. I'll go with the edelbrock heads. I see that the engine also has a roller cam which I like. I think we've found a winner. I'll stick the stock TBI system on to pass emmisions and then swap on either my friends 650 double pumper or a 670cfm holley TB and custom chip. I just think the carb would be easier to tune so if my friends is getting a bigger carb I'll buy the 650 from him. Thank you so much for showing me that link. Not even the sdpc2000 tech e-mail guys have introduced me to it....yet.
My car already has the SLP headers, 3" exhaust to a 3" single out. I also have a new top of the line stereo system (alpine, mb quart, kicker) and have completely redone my suspension (eibache, prothane, and bilstein). I can't wait till this summer when the car is finished. Only thing left will be to get the car's exterior fixed up. It was broken into twice and the door locks are all messed up so I'm going to have the handles, lock holes, and antenna shaved and painted. It's going to be such a nice ride, I day dream everyday about my car and a 350.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

Z28 Boy

hey jon, did you ever get my email? i kept ob getting emails back saying that it was unable to sne dit or something, so im not sure what the deal is. let me know and i will resend it. talk to you later man.
-brian

------------------
1991 Camaro RS
----------------------------------------------
Ultra Blue Metallic, T-Tops

GM 350 HO Crate Engine - Vortec Heads, Edelbrock Performer Vortec Intake, Holley 670 CFM Throttle Body, Open Air Cleaner w/14"x3" K&N, Edelbrock TES Headers, Edelbrock Victor Series Water Pump, Accell Superstock Wires, Cap, and Rotor, MSD Blaster Coil, Hypertech Fan Switch & Thermomaster Chip, AC Delco Rapidfires, 3" Cat Back, Flowmaster 40 Series Muffler

700R4 - 2,400 Stall Converter, Vette Servo, Shift Kit, B&M Super Cooler

Brian's 1991 RS

Central NY F-Body Association

z28boy@twcny.rr.com IM name: Z28 Boy

badbird88

If you want to go to Jail..suuuuurrrree go ahead!

You have to go back to a 78, isn't it, before emissions test are not required and I don't think our 3rd gen f-bodys will pass as a 2nd gen.



------------------
1988 TA 300+hp 350 w/ TBI and Holley TB unit, Holley projection intake,
WC T-5, 3.42 gears w/ Auburn posi. MSD 6A, edelbrock TES headers, dynomax 3" cat and cat-back system, ACCEL coil, polyurethane bushings all around, aluminum driveshaft, Mr. Gasket open air cleaner.

1993 S-10 w/ 4.3L V6 TBI, slightly bigger cam, Mild polish job and 3 angle valve job on heads, Edlebrock TES headers, Dynomax cat back, MSD 6A, ADS chip

2000 Kawasaki KX 125

JPrevost

Sorry about that. I know that's illegal, I was just saying. Don't take that literally, I wouldn't do that anyways, it's too much of a hassle to get inspection, title, etc it's not worth it.
Anyways, so what kind of hp and torque do you guys think the caparice w/edelbrock heads engine will make with my exhaust and a 650cfm double pumper? Would a larger carb be better, like a 700 or 750? Also do you think a larger cam would be benifit a +10hp? The cam that it comes with is 191/196 @.05" - .414"/.429" lift. It's funny because the 285hp TBI/TPI head 350 has a larger cam which I think should be in the aluminum head 350. I wonder if I could ask them to put in that larger cam.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

[This message has been edited by JPrevost (edited October 20, 2000).]

91Bird305

Oh man, u shouldn't have said the word carb on this board. (I am not joking). I said the word "sucks" and "LO3" in the same sentence and I am pracitcally hated here. Better hurry up and edited that conversion to carb stuff before you are attacked with tbi statistics and opionions on why converting to carb is stuipd and why you should stick with TBI. I promise I won't tell.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited October 20, 2000).]

JPrevost

TBI is great, I like it but I don't have the money right now to keep it. TBI costs more than carb and like I said earlier, I'll eventually get the 670cfm holley TB and a custom chip burned. Don't hold me out on saying carb is better than TBI. TPI is just way to expensive to upgrade. Oh yeah, I'd also need to get heavier injectors and an adapter plate. I'll eventually get TBI back on but for a while I'll just use my friends carb. There, is that a good enough cover ;-p
Oh yeah, and I just got back from a crazy party. I won't get into details but OSU just had the a killer party that got out of control...again. Just a few more words about it: Cops, Me with DJ on balcony, hot girls, then glass bottles --> cops, then more and more, hard group fights, then came the flipping of a car, then some idiot tried to light it on fire (stopped), then cops shot my friend in the leg with a tear gas canister. Wow, what a night...Give me an OH...IO

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

91Bird305

Holy sh*t man! That reminds me of the good ole MSU riots. WOOHOOO!!

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://hometown.aol.com/J007Golden/index2.html

JPrevost

Yup, OSU is just as crazy. Sorry if this is off topic right now. My bad. Okay, anyways, I hope my car will run in the high 13's when tuned right. I figure a 350 with aluminum heads and headers and 3" exhaust etc etc. would do that. Only problem is my rear end and drive shaft. It's steel and the rear is only 3.08 peg leg. I hope to find a cheap 4th gen rear to swap in. Something with 3.42 posi. Gosh I hope I can land a good paying summer job.

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

BPA

Ive done the LO5 swap on my 91rs. I can tell you it is a dramatic improvement from my old LO3. Im stil running the 305 chip and restrictive cat forward exaust though. I know i have a lot of power hiding in this combo. From what i have heard the LO5 has a stronger short block than the L98's. The price on the engine wasnt to bad. Only 1,400 or 1,500 if i remeber right.I spent roughly 2,500 to get it running with all the sensors and such that needed to be swaped in.I live in cali and no its not smog leagal. but it looks exactly the same as the lo3 so im hoping they dont check the casting numbers. im sure getting new heads and cam on this combo along with a chip and this engine would make a lot of power and be pretty reliable. good luck on your choice.
Brian

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I cant believe it

91bird305 is saying you cant pass emissions with a zz4


IN the future, please know what you are talking about before you make these wild claims


The ZZ4 is almost the same as an L98, the cam is almost identical, the main difference is in the rotating assembly and heads. The ZZ4 has aluminum "fast burn" heads which are far better than L98 aluminum heads.

The ZZ4 would pass the sniffer no problem (its basically a more efficient L98, the zz4s fast burn heads yielded a .35 bsfc peak horsepower. BSFC measures efficiency, and consider that most engines run about .5, the lower the number the more efficient)

In fact, the other motor would pass emissions easily aswell. I dont think GM sells any engines with anything more than mild cam profiles. Im pretty sure all of their small blocks would pass flying colors.
If im not mistaken, the zz4 is actually offered as an emissions legal swap kit for the earlier carbed camaros.

so basically, the zz4 will pass a sniffer test easily, and a 670 tbi will support the horsepower it can put out

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited November 02, 2000).]

JPrevost

Pablo, you think the zz4 will pass emmisions even without the EGR provisions? I was under the impression that EGR heads were the only true way to pass emmisions. I'm going to talk to a few local shops, Jegs tech support :-), and my friend that owns a gas station that does the testing. By the way, it's not a sniff test, they run the car to like 55mph and measure the emmisions then. I'd be very excited to hear that the zz4 would pass New Jersey emmisions. I'd first use either the stock TBI or my friends 650 holley to pass emmisions. Then save up for a 670 TB (daily driver) or 750 holley (racen only). Does the intake manifold effect emmisions much? If I go with the 670 TB I'm thinking a dual plane would work better for street and a 750 holley would go well with either a dual or single plane. Okay, now back to the pass/nonpass. What kind of heads are on the zz4? Are they the LT4 heads? Now please tell me that a cam shaft is what really makes or breaks an engines ability to pass emmisions (lobe seperation). I'm trying to learn as much as possible before this install. Gosh I hope I can get the zz4, that would make my day/week/month/& YEAR!!

------------------
, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

FastBroker

Pablo, you do not live in CA and have not seen there smog test(s). A ZZ4 would be hard pressed to pass emmissions in CA on a tailpipe level and on a casting/idle quality level. I have tried to pass lesser-cam engines in CA and have some severe difficulty. The ZZ4 cam is pretty big and not smog friendly. Not in the age of EFI, anyways, but carb is ok, if the carb is tuned perfectly for emmissions.

91Bird305

I think Cali is really tuff on emmisions Pablo. Thats why I said that I don't think they would pass him. If he lived here in Michigan I would tell him he would because there are none! I am so happy. But I think he would have trouble in Cali or anywhere else were they are pretty strict. Plus the GMPP tech people told me that the engine was not made to pass emmisions when I told them what year car I had. So I don't know. Do u know anyone that has passed emmison tests in a strict emmisions area with a ZZ4? Heck they even say it on the site.
Don't tell me I am making wild claims you *****. That is what GMPP said.

[EDIT]
Oh and I didn't know they used "fast burn" heads on the ZZ4 Pablo. I thought the fast burn heads were on the ZZ5. The one they call the Fast Burn 385 (ZZ5). I don't know, I might be wrong though but thats what it said.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited November 03, 2000).]

Scott C

To correct Pablo, who is NOT an expert on every topic here like he tries to be:

The standard ZZ4 uses standard L98/Vette aluminum heads.

There is a "fast burn" version of the ZZ4 that has of course, fast burn heads. This is not the true ZZ4 engine that GM produced and marketed. It is basically and "upgrade" to the standard ZZ4.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Do you all want to insult me more? I get a kick out of it lol its almost like a kids temper tantrum

"Pablo, you do not live in CA and have not seen there smog test(s). A ZZ4 would be hard pressed to
pass emmissions in CA on a tailpipe level and on a casting/idle quality level. I have tried to pass
lesser-cam engines in CA and have some severe difficulty. The ZZ4 cam is pretty big and not smog
friendly. Not in the age of EFI, anyways, but carb is ok, if the carb is tuned perfectly for emmissions."
First of all, Ed, do not assume what I know or what I do not know. We all know the cliche about what happens when you assume.
Do you live in california? Here let me answer for you, no.
Have you "seen" the emissions test? I couldnt care less to tell you the truth- yawn
Your last bit about EFI not being able to pass but carbs can is laughable. Do you mean by creating a huge vacuum leak and turning down the idle by "tuned for emissions" ?

Sadly, for someone so convinced that you are an expert on eprom programming you lack any practical knowledge of the matter and that is anyone with programming skills can get just about any car to pass with flying colors. As for the test, which i know you are going to mention. The im 240 merely checks for a functioning SES light, and prom ID which does not change if you dont change it and probably a few other things like closed loop vs open etc. All easily passed by any competant tuner

Egr reduces NOX emissions, the NOX standard is pretty lax in the shortened IM 240 done in newjersey (yes thats where he lives, not california) the ZZ4 cam is very similar to an L98 cam (there is as you know self egr anyways with larger cams) and if you cant get a cam like that to pass emissions you need to give your car a tune up. Ive passed vehicles under the old florida standard with no catalytic converter and 100k plus miles (my own car included) Granted the test was a little more lax, but many cars WITH catalytic converters failed routinely (my moms 6 cyl van with 2 cats for example) regardless of him living in new jersey, i dont doubt he could get a zz4 to pass in california as well with a little bit of disguising especially if he hasnt been marked off in their "black book" before.

the point is, these engines are not high emitters, and the test done in NJ is merely a visual inspection for all equipment. Even if it werent, as in california, they would just apply vacuum to the egr to be sure its functioning (and it would pass this test with a dummy egr valve)

But dont take my word for it, talk to Kevin91Z who has essentially a home built zz4 and lives in california, or Tom Keliher who has a dart headed L98 with an LT4 Hot cam (way more wicked than a ZZ4 cam) I could go on and on giving you examples but it wont make a difference you are blinded by hate


Pablo

91Bird305

Dude, what an ego....

Blinded by hate?

I couldnt care less to tell you the truth- yawn


Dude, we are just saying through our experinces and from what I have been told. I was talking about the ZZ4. Not a garage built ZZ4 or something with a ZZ4 cam or higher. I can't say anything for the rest.

JPrevost

Okay, this has got to end and I think I'm going to have to be the guy to say it.
STOP WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS. I don't want to hear it and neither does anybody else. I apreciate the help but I have to find my answers in a pile of bitter responces. It's not how I like to do it. Please don't think I have any less respect for any of you, I'd just like to hear more polite replies.


I still would like to figure out if I could get that zz4 to pass NJ. No it's not just a visual, they put on the sniffer and run it from idle to 55mph. Idle is more my worry. No I'm not on their black book.

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, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Sorry Jon, i have a tendency to "roid rage" when get flamed or questioned continuously. I apologize


and yes the basic ZZ4 has corvette heads I believe i got confused with the zz430

regardless, the basic zz4 is essentially like a vette motor with a little more compression and basically the same cam.

Vette motor with a little more compression. You make the call on whether you think that will pass the sniffer or not

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited November 03, 2000).]

91Bird305

I apoligize as well. I don't get along with Pablow very much.

As for the zz4, i guess its pretty much a throw up. If u want to pass emmisions, I wouldn't go carb, atleast for the emmisions test.

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Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
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http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

F body L98 cam 207/213 .415/.430

zz4 cam 208/221 .474/.510


not exactly the same
but similar enough, the zz4 cam is definately better but definately not a rumble cam

Tas

the ZZ4 has the L98 heads but has the LT4 hot cam's valve springs.

Guest

The emissions problem is passing visual in most cases, as long as you do everything else right. I would venture to guess the ZZ4 wont have a problem as long as the TBI is tuned right and your catalytic converter is intact and functioning up to spec. Pretty sure they do the same test in NJ as they do out here in CA, so...

I built a 88 350 block that was out of an IROC, put ported vette heads on it, a TPI, custom chip, KB pistons, gear drive, headers, and a SLP camshaft. The compression is 10.3:1, the cam is 224/232 .497/.517. It doesnt have EGR, AIR, or the charcoal canister. I only put a cat on it, and kept the PCV because its sorta necessary. They had just changed over to the new test out here, so I took it over to my friend to get it checked out, see if it would in fact pass. Of course visually (which they do here) it would fail, but he doesnt care what it looks like So I roll the car up, and he sticks the sniffer up the pipe. It passed no problem at all, as a matter of fact he said it was clean enough to pass the standards for a 99 car. How you ask? NOx is a direct component of the combustion process, related to the combustion temperature. If you can keep the temp down and run a 3-way cat (which lowers not only HC and CO but NOx as well) then the NOx is no longer a factor. 99% of the time a lowered temp sends the HC through the roof due to incomplete combustion, usually due to excess fuel. My sugggestion is to get the A/F where it should be, and the rest will take care of itself.

The cat is a key component in running a clean high HP FI car, you obviously cant have your cake and eat it too. An old cat that is clogged or not working as it should will read high on the O2 level (above 1% IIRC) and will usually send the emissions up pretty high, especially the HC. Of course if visual is a concern, I'd say you're screwed. But the sniffer part can be done. So run a good cat, make sure the fueling is right, and you should be just fine. I wont guarantee it but I've done it a few times myself on different cars so it can be done.

Pablo... Go to bed young man. And AFAIK Kevin never took his car to get it smogged in the current setup, I seem to remember him saying he was worried it wouldnt pass (I'll just call him sniffer nose since he never tried that I am aware of).

JPrevost

How can I be screwed with visual. I think that would be the easiest. I'd just have the TBI system on there with higher fuel pressure so as not to run the engine too lean. Keep the rpm's low until I get there. I don't think I'll fail the visual. I can bolt all the air system up and still use the serpentine belt right?

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, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)

Guest

Yes, but IIRC the ZZ4 doesnt have EGR passages, and if they do a visual and actually check the EGR for function, it will fail. Other than that, I cant see any problems.

JPrevost

I know this probably sounds really stupid. But what the heck is the EGR? I know it's Exhaust Gas Recycle or something. But where is it on the heads? How does it actually recycle the exhaust gas back into to intake? Wouldn't it have to somehow have a passage for the exhaust gas to go through (after the exhaust valve) the head and back into the intake (right before the intake valve)? Does anybody have any cross section views of heads with EGR and those without? I'm really curious as to how this works. Sorry if this sounds stupid but I don't care if it makes me look like an idiot. I don't have a pride issue so please help me understand.

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, Jon (91 RS too many mods to list)