ChevelleCLM

I put in my O2 sensor, and have everything hooked up. I am running a stock 350 with headers, and and using a stock 350 program in my eprom. I have tried several eproms, and none of them seem to make any difference. The motor is not going into closed loop, and and not flashing any codes. I measured 5-600 Mv on the O2 sensor, and 175 deg from the CTS, but this thing just will not cooperate. any ideas suggestions? anything? I have swapped the MAP with 4-5 others, and no difference, and I just swapped my AIC, with no difference. Cmon I am to my wits end with this thing.

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

snflupigus

ill know how to help better in a month or so. im converting a 69 camaro to tbi.

questions.

sure the harness is good?
all wires are hooked up correctly?
sure the ecu is good?
which stock 350?
what is not running right?
what is the engine doing?
starting and dying or running rough?

we'll see if we can help with more info.

snflupigus

btw. it ran right with a carb on it? anyway to drop fuel pressure and hook the carb back up just for test wise, make sure its the tbi system not something with the engine?

ChevelleCLM

It is not going into closed loop, and when it gets hot from driving, all the power is not there, and it bogs and then jumps up and goes, and then bogs and then goes about 3-4 times after I punch it. I have programmed it with a stock 5.7 Ltr manual.
The car runs great and I mean great when it is cold, like I can burn the tires down in any gear. Just as soon as it warms up, it starts acting all sluggish and boggish.

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

ChevelleCLM

I am insulted by your post, and here is why.
First off my carb ran like crap, always did and always will. and sure I can go out and buy a new one, but I am leading up to why I did not in a sec.
Second off, I am not installing the TBI as a performance increase. I am not looking to put better heads on my car or normal BS like that. It has stock 882 heads, and they are just fine for the performance I want out of this motor. I got almost all my tbi stuff for FREE, and thats plays a big factor in this. I am not trying to make my car super fast, and you are telling me to spend time doing performance mods instead of making it run correctly. I have done the 350 camel hump heads, super lump cam, and high rise intake. I have also wasted more than 4 transmissions doing this.
Thirdly, this is all a learning experience for me, and I am trying to get the TBI swap down for my 305 datsun truck swap. I have a 427 BB in the works, and I do not think a TPI would work very well on that(HMMM why not you might ask?? well first off it wont fit.) What would work well, is the dual TBI system that is going on it. How can one say that 11 or 1200 CFM will be a poor performer. If you want to buy me a superam and the related stuff to make that work I am all game for it.
Fourthly, I am not "ruining" my car, and I have done nothing that will be permenant to it. So actually I am doing myself a favor that way. I am glad to know your "12 second make s real hot rod mark" makes you fell good about yourself, but all speed is relative, and I have gone alot faster than 12's.
In conclusion, I think that you should stop trying to discourage me from doing what I want to with MY car. (key words I and MY) I a appreciate your attempt to get me to soup my motor up(again not at all what I am trying to do) and discourage me from the proven performer TBI.
Oh, and BTW if you would like some unwelcome advice from me, it would be to get a car that comes with a big block from the factory, and have 600HP and 600 FTLBS on tap. Then you will not have to think to yourself "Ohh boy whats my next 305 17 sec quarter mile mod"

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

JPrevost

Don't listen to Eric (91bird) he thinks TBI is bad because it was the low performer. Maybe if they put TPI on the Lo3 and watched the "increased hp" lol. Not gonna happen. As for your problems, do you have an SES light hooked up? Even if you don't, get a scanner hooked up somehow, that will tell you EVERYTHING. Best bet would to find a local guy with Diacom or some kind of computer system to watch every sensor. That is the only thing I can think of. My car is running like **** and I think I know the reason. The SES light isn't coming on but the car runs like bad after warmed up so I think it's an o2 sensor and a vac leak somewhere (won't idle right). I ordered a laptop for $50 and am getting ready to check my car out. Poor girl has been sitting in a garage for 2 weeks now. Really though, get it checked out with a scanner. Best part about TBI is the ecm, it's so simple, if it was a carb you would have no way of telling what's wrong. Carb is nice if you like having your fuel injected mechanically, personally I don't like using 2 feet at a stop light, the TBI will use the IAC to adjust idle and that makes for a better ride. Long live TBI. Why would GM keep it for so long if it wasn't a very good design? BTW, TBI came AFTER TPI and is still being used, it's not dead.

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

ChevelleCLM

I do have the SES light hooked up, and it was flashing a 13, which I changed out the O2sensor, and it went away, but still no run good. Mr 305 just does not get that I am not trying to soup my car up, just trying to learn and get a little drivability. I am not here to argue tbi VS tpi. all my ses does is flash on off on off quickly when running in diag mode meaning that it is in open loop, and not running it flashes code 12. ??? I am still lost. I am in the process of building a max232 ALDL setup. and I will have that on my laptop so I will be able to see exactly whats up

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

NotDadsW41

Isn't "closed loop" dependent upon the temp the engine is seeing. IIRC, you need to get the egnine above the 175* that you're seeing. What's the temp rating of your thermostat???

Remember most of TBI cars/trucks were made to run with a 195* thermostat.

FastBroker

DO you have a big cam in there? Give the .050" lift duration numbers and the max lifts, please. If the cam is too big, the car will not run right with an OEM PROM. Also, you said you are "programming" the ecu. Did you try an OEM, non-aftermarket PROM??? ie, maybe your programming is incorrect or something...

IMO, get a scantool to verify that it is surely not going into closed loop. The scan tool will also tell you what the ECU is seeing as far as coolant temps, TPS, etc, which may be in error from a harnes problem. That tool is invaluable to you right now!!! I think you may even find out that it IS in closed-loop but that the MAP signals given to the ECU from the lumpy cam are causing hissy-fits with a stock-type PROM. I ran a HOT CAM for a bit which is probably mellower than yours and I had a bit of trouble, enough so to go to a mellower cam...

As all will know here, I LOVE TBI, but I have to agree with the above poster about TBI on that Chevelle... No offense and a Chevell was my first car!!! It's just that a Victor Jr. with a 750 cfm carb and a hughmongous cam are the era. But, the times, they are a changin', and I understand why you did it. I did it for the same reasons in my 350'd Wrangler. F'ing carbs and OD don't get along at 1800rpm under huge loads on the highway... At least as far as mileage goes.

we'll help you, don't worry.

ChevelleCLM

No I do not have a lumpy cam. It is stock wimpy duration.
91305, if you would like to see a "real Hot Rod" (remember you said that does 12's LOL) I can show you some. There are several chevelles that came from the factory with gobs of power that my TBI will never see. Again, I am not trying to get massive power from this motor as I have a 427 in the works. I guess your right about user error.
Seeing as how I am not trying to make a "as you say "hot Rod"" out of a TBI, I see no error in my ways.

"But I see there is no getting thru to u die hard TBIers out there who want to swap everything to TBI." I am not trying to swap everything, and if you would like to donate a TPI or a mini ram, or a super ram, I will put it on there, but I see that you are in no posisition to give HP advice, let alone by me a 2000 intake.
"Carb is good for really high output engines" I do not have a hight output engine!!!!!!!
"TPI is a great performance injection system that even gives u great gas mileage"
And it is going to max out at about 400 HP, and then you have to start spending hella bucks buying runners and porting and Could you imagine that a suped up TPI is not what I am after.

"and TBI...well ask your local speed shop what they think of TBI or your regular die hard hot rodder. He will just about laugh"
Hmm thats pretty funny. Actually in Hemmings motor news yesterday I saw a 50 caddy with a 350 and a tbi on the Crusin The Coast car show. Plus the local speed shops around, are run by back woods hilbillys that have never heard of TPI TBI or anything of the sort.
I am glad you posted back, and look foward to your return posts, as you have to talk down about your engine because you are not happy with it. Go ahead and swap in your TPI, and I will have my stock TBI, and we can race then? Ohh wait I forgot. you are going to break your puny rear axle, and puke up 700R4 or 5speed guts everywhere or rip off your torque arm after you finally put some power in a 3rd gen. You will see exactly what I am talking about as soon as you get some "REAL HOT RODDER 12 sec POWER"

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

Brent

iTrader: (1)

ChevelleCLM: Please ignore 91bird305. He is a troll and has nothing of value to share on this forum.

His only reason for posting here is to start fights. If you ignore his idiotic ranting he won't have anyone to argue with and hopefully will stop spoiling threads with his garbage.

FastBroker

I think it's because this is a TBI board to HELP people... It's not an anti-TBI board or Pro-carb board. There are other boards for that...

[This message has been edited by FastBroker (edited May 30, 2001).]

JPrevost

Eric, we really don't want to hear about TBI being a waste etc. It isn't helping anybody. Do you think I would have been better off going with carb? The only tools I have out here in Ohio is my computer and eprom burning stuff. It's nice to be able to tune a car from the comfy computer desk chair and not a garage workbench (for the messy carb).
Chevell, check out all the specs and post at the DIY EPROM board, if you have a question about something then I'm sure they can help you out with burning your own eproms.

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

91Bird305

So u don't think people should see the differnce in dyno numbers with the TPI vs. TBI? Thats all I am wondering.

But if the guy got the TBI system for free I guess go ahead with it. Knock yourself out and see how it does. Good luck with the TBI swap.

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited May 30, 2001).]

TBImaster

Yes, you must get the temp above 175 before the ecm send you to closed loop.

Do you have your MAP setup?? Vac plays a big part in closed loop ops.

One more thing, Hey Jackass if you cant help then no one wants to hear your mouth.

NJ SPEEDER

this may sound simplistic but, have you messed with the timing at all yet. the combo that is in there along with the new set up may need a different setting. also are you running a mechanical or did you switch to an electric fuel pump. a mechanical may not be stepping up the flow fast enough to keep pace, that would make the computer lag and not be able to loop.
and please ignore eric, he hasn't been the same since they invented thinking

hope this helps

lata
tim

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91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667

ChevelleCLM

I have a electric fuel pump hooked up, and I have set my timing to about 8 deg BTDC. I have a 160 stat in my car, and maybe thats why it is not going into closed loop. I do have a map sensor hooked up, and I am using the Spark module, and a knock sesor, and a TBI distributor, and a CTS. It is puzzling that the car only runs bad after it warms up? and not all the time.
I sure do feel terrible now that I do not own "a real hot rod" HAHAHA Yeah OK
Thanks to all you guys for helping. I appreciate it.

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

snflupigus

have you tested the cts voltage readings? o2 any of those?

to make sure they are reading correctly.
last resort may be to find somebody with a computer that can watch the ecm and record while the car runs.

borrow a scan tool? 30 bucks from a local tech to drive it for 30 minutes with one hooked up to tell you what you are getting for readings in the ecm?


[This message has been edited by snflupigus (edited May 30, 2001).]

ChevelleCLM

getting 500Mv on the O2 abd 176-180 deg on the CTS I am using the table at DIY GM ECM.

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

ChevelleCLM

well 400-650 MV on O2 anyway

NJ SPEEDER

that sounds a little low to me. try raising the fuel pressure a bit maybe. it sounds like the car is leaning out. does it get worse when you hit the gas?

lata
tim

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91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.209@95.46mph
Best 60' 1.917
Check Out The East Coast F-Body Nationals Home Page
www.geocities.com/njspeeder

My MAFB.ORG Home Page
www.mycar.net/mafb/registry/detail.cfm?id=299

DSI Racing Home Page
www.geocities.com/foff667

scauffiel

I'm sorry if this sounds lame, but it's late and I'm tired... What about trying a heated O2 sensor? I hear a lot of guys with problems when they swap to headers because the O2 sensor is moved and doesn't heat properly. Would that cause it to not go into closed loop?

Man I'm tired. 'night.

Darth Steve

ChevelleCLM

I do not know if the Header not getting hot enough is a problem. I never have had reg manifolds on this motor with an o2 sensor.
I have tried running the FP all the way up, and all the way down, and everywhere in between.

snflupigus

sounds like mechanic shop time, but before you do that i would check out the best damn garage on the internet. somebody has to have that link i cant find it.

maybe you can figure it out with a little reading.

my mind is spent.

ill throw a few more radical thoughts out.
fuel pump heats up, slows down?
gas gets hot?
a sensors wires are switched or something
seems that once its out of full rich mode when warming up it goes to crap, try putting the resistor in the iat sensor, and maybe rigging the cts to read a constant, just to test them.
its nickname is christine and youve not been paying enough attention to her?

k

this is where i would give up and take it to a pro, pay a bit o money to have somebody tell you whats wrong.

nighty night

ChevelleCLM

I tried the 20 degrees resistor in the CTS plug.

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

JPrevost

What do the plugs look like?

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, Jon (350 TBI!)
91 Red My website

91Bird305

Yeah, knock me all u want but if it wasn't for me, you would still have 2 posts.

And Tim is so smart he decides to invest money into his 305....the great Pablo even said that is the stuipdest idea in the world. So don't knock me Tim. Your 14.2 fully modified 305 is nothing to act like your smart about. I never said I knew anything, I just had some stats from a dyno I thought he should look at before he decided to go thru with this TBI on this nice 350 chevelle. And and it seems everyone gets pissed whenever the words TBI and sucks come together. Its like I am talking about their moms or something. LoL. Chill out guys, just provide facts or stats to compete with the ones I had. Not, "Oh your dumb and he doesn't know what he is talking about." Try doing it the other way sometime. Its a lot better.

But now that I see he got the system for free and he really wants to go thru with it I ain't gonna argue with him on it. Its HIS car. Just thought he would be interested in the dyno numbers and maybe if he was building something nice not to put TBI on it. But he is building it for something else. By all means, I knocked none of you in my posts (until now), just TBI a few times with some dyno numbers to prove my facts.

Anyways, a little bit of actual info. I think Nic is right and its about time to take it to a speed shop if the stuff he said checks out. Have you posted this on the Tech/General section of this message board though or maybe the Prom board? GMTech and Vadar are pretty smart guys and there are some others too and they might help. Wouldn't hurt to try.
Good luck finding out whats wrong and bring us back a new timeslip with your TBI system on instead.

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited May 31, 2001).]

FastBroker

Use a scan tool to diag but FIRST, though, get rid of that useless 160deg stat!!! If you need it to prevent overheating, you have cooling problems that must be remedied...

snflupigus

dito on fastbroker there. kill 160 stat. i had one in my car for a while, not good. especially in the winter. i never thought it hurt, till i put the 190 back in.

ChevelleCLM

OK 160 is outathere. I tried swapping 747's today and no luck. Could the v6 calpak be hurting anything? Maybe I can get a 12 sec timeslip? after all thats where real hot rod times start!!!

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

NotDadsW41

OK Just something to consider on this in regards to your timing. Do you have the right combination of timing tab and balancer? I know htat timing can be off by many degrees if you aren't using the right combination of these things. Are you using the timing tab and balancer for this engine and the vehicle that it cam out of???

Just a thought....

ChevelleCLM

My timing is OK, and the car Ran OK with the carb, but just had the normal carb problems bad cold starting, and bog when you opened it into the secondaries. I am thinking that I might have the pump hooked up where it will not work and it might be heating the fuel. I have the return T'd into the supply so that the pump will just recirculate the fuel until it gets injected. I think this might be heating it up too much?

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69 Chevelle 2dr hardtop blue, bench seats, 12 bolt w/3.73's muncie 4 speed. best 14.5@90

NotDadsW41

The return is plumbed into the supply line?? Where is this T'd at? I thought these things had to run the return line clear back to the tank.

steve8586iroc

T'ing the return line into the supply line is not a good idea. If it is t'ed before the pump then it is working against the fuel comming from the tank. If it is t'ed between the pump and the tbi then your pump will build pressure on both sides of the fpr so you won't be able to adjust it. Sounds like you need to get this fixed first then go from there. Just my .02 worth.

Steve

FastBroker

Some boats I work on have the return line go into a Tee just before the pump, allowing the pump to pull in fuel from the tank AND return line. This is not bad but if not done right can be. Plus, if you have any air in the system, it will never leave. I recommend against it for a car. Plumb a return line into the tank some weekend if you are bored, and epoxy paint theexterior of the tank while it's out. Plus, you can check the pickup to see if you could be sucking in air or have some sort of restriction.

snflupigus

you just thought to tell everybody that now? LOL, definately fix that and tell us the results. i just ordered a gas tank and a sending unit for a 4bbl for my 69 camaro so i wouldnt have to rig a return line in the future when i convert it to tbi.