sixty

I have been lurking on this site for quite awhile I wanted to thank everyone for the great amount of information contained on this site. I have learned alot about the TBI system & what can be done with it.

I currently have a stock TBI350 with a built 700r4 (HD stock converter) in my 84 Toyota Landcruiser wagon (see here: http://forum.ih8mud.com/hardcore-cor...uty-build.html). Just after I got the whole drivetrain back together (about 30 miles) the 350 started making a loud ticking noise and running very rough intermitantly. To me it seems like a sticking lifter but I havn't really investigated it. I've always wanted more power & the engine has about 170k on it with the last 30k being run hard by me, so I figured I would pull it & build a stroker. After alot of parts research I came across a great deal ($1500) on a very low mile stroker so I went ahead & bought it .

The specs are as follows:

4-bolt main, high nickle block .040 over, .010 on the mains
Scat 9000 crank with scat 6" rods, int.balanced
KB Hypereutectic pistons @ 9.6:1 compression
World torquer 76cc heads
Comp Cams XE 4x4 K11-239 cam (info here: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...3&autoview=sku ) (too big for TBI?)
Summit 1.5 roller rockers (hopefully won't interfere with the knock sensor)
Edelbrock performer intake with EGR (I need to smog)
All ARP bolts and studs
And a bunch of other misc stuff.
pics here: http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ture013vw5.jpg
http://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ture010fs8.jpg
The engine was clean & the cam looked barely broke-in. The bores were smooth with cross hatching still very visible, althout the bores did have some vertical marks from the piston skirts that weren't detectable by the fingernail.

The PO said he had it dyno'd at around 400hp using a holley 750 and it had a real smooth idle and tons of low end torque (was in a blazer).

My plans area sa follows so far:

454 TBI with the 90lb 523 injectors (or the 350 injectors @ 30+ PSI) and factory heated spacer to spread bore (already bought rebuilt unit with injectors and spacer for $60 on Craigslist)
7747 or 7746 ECM (have both) with the Flash EBL & WB o2. DIY tune.
MSD or Walbro inline fuel pump.
Block hugger headers with a 1-5/8" primaries to 2.5" collector to single (no room for dual) 3" exhaust with high flow cat (replacing my brand new 2.5" )


Do you guys think the cam is too big to tune for smog @ idle and 2500 rpms (250ppm HC's)? Should I drop in a more compatible cam? (I love high end HP, off road)

Any other sugestions or advice?

Thanks in advance & thanks again for everyones hard work on the TBI systems and this great forum.

creepingdeath

I dont understand your post at all... where did the pics of the carb'd engine come from?

sixty

I bought the engine with the carb, but I'm planning on swaping my TBI stuff onto it with the above mods.

I need to get a new manifold also that will accept an EGR valve. I'm thinking the Holley 300-49 & skip the BB-tbi adapter since I don't think it will clear the EGR valve on a performer 3701. Any ideas?

one other thing, The cam is a Comp Xtreme 4x4 K12-239 (SBC) not the K11-239 (BBC). hopefully I can get it to idle decent (111d LSA)

creepingdeath

Are you crazy?! TBI blows why do you want it anyways?? your gunna lose alot of hp in the swap.

sixty

Offroad, carbs really suck! I think with a proprtly tuned TBI little or no horsepower will be lost. I spent alot of time getting my current TBI swap approved by the Nevada smog board & don't want to have to deal with them again using a stock TPI system. They definately will not let a carb fly.

creepingdeath

Well how extreme are you going to be 4x4'ing? an offroad tuned carb wont bog unless your doing some serious climbing/bouncing. alot more people runs carbs than FI. all those wires and electronics can get wet and corrode fast don't forget even pin holes in your wiring can cuase them to corrode very fast. Is it your dailey driver? iether way youll still have a beast for 4x4'ing especially in your yoto (chevy and toyota together make the best offroad rigs IMO depending on how you put them together lol)

sixty

I get into some very off-camber stuff, steep stuff & can go from wheeling at sea level all the way up to 10000'. Very difficult, if not impossible stuff to tune a carb for. I've tried all of the carb stuff for off-roading & nothing ever worked nearly as well as the TBI has.

As far as the wiring, The engine has 100k of hard miles in the cruiser in some very corrosive environments and never had any problems with wiring or bad sensors. Everything still looks clean.

It was my daily driver for 6 years, but now I have a Duramax truck that I drive daily. The power of the Duramax is what made me realize how anemic the stock TBI is (which was a monster compared to the toyota inline 6).

Toyota makes great trucks but unfortunately the engines are weak compared to American V-8's. There is nothing better than horsepower for running thru deep snow and mud or long steep hill climbs. Take alook at the link I posted above, there is not much toyota left

creepingdeath

Why do you have to have the EGR stuff then?? TBI would be a good setup for you then. Are you going to be selling the carb you have right now when you get your TBI stuff? Also you might want to consider using just a 350 TB instead the 454 will just make you lose bottom end hp but youll have more in the higher rpm.
----------
do the "ultimate" mods before you put in the tbi and it will work great with the 383..

sixty

I wish I didn't need the EGR but I have to smog it every year & they visually check for the EGR. Its probably gonna be one of the difficult parts of the swap!

yeah I'll probably sell the carb. I'm not sure on the condition of it though, it may need a rebuild.

I thought about the 350 TBI, but right now it has more than enough low end, and its likely to have more than stock. I like spinning the engine at 5k plus for the heck of it, or getting a run at some mud, snow or other obstical. I may try both since I have lots of parts around.
----------
I'll definately do the ultimate mods if I drop the small TBI on it.

RFmaster

The (listed in org post) cam is a tad big for 350 and according to Comp cams it is NOT computer compatible - my guess the LSA 111 is a bit narrow. Instead, look for a cam with a wider LSA 114 degrees which is much friendlier for ECM's running speed density. One such example that comes to mind is CCA-12-402-4 which might be fine for 350 and a bit smallish for 383. It is only 212/218 @0.050 with .444/.444. I have not used this cam, but if you have to pass smog, with 383, this cam's tame profile will not raise suspicions of the smog police. Open loop Carb will not get you by smog, nor will it yield overall fuel economy. TBI systems do just fine on the 'range' where you need low end torque (not high end HP) - just as long as you know not too go crazy into the river. I know of several JPrs & IH that went to TBI and never looked back to carb. You have to do your homework, before converting to TBI. Also, do not forget about your fuel system.

//RF

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Thats MAJOR IGNORANCE right there.

creepingdeath

What am i ignoring? TBI is a good system and bad system. TBI was the beginnings of FI and if it was such an amazing system why doesn't anyone use it anymore? I cringe at the of someone dumping a Holley carb for stock TBI but in his case i guess it suits his needs the best, cheap, reliable, emissions legal, wont need regular tuning (for what he does with his yota) and can handle severe 4x4'ing

sixty

RFmaster,

Thanks for the info! I am a little worried that I won't get a clean enough burn at idle with the 111LSA so I may swap the cam out. I'm not too worried about a lopey idle since the smog guys only care about the equipment and the numbers at the pipe, not how it sounds. Fortunately I already have a TBI350 in my truck that runs well so all I'm really doing is swapping an older block under it, hopefully it will be pretty straight forward.

I love the reliable performance that the TBI has given me over the years, there is no way in hell I would go back to a carb.

BMmonteSS

Creepy,

I don't know if you've noticed but you are on the TBI board......so we all run TBI. Most people don't run TBI because they don't understand it or FI in general. Your statments obviously show that you haven't a clue when it comes to fuel injection, you probably don't even realize that we have the ability to completely retune the ECM to fit any engine. There are some pretty mean TBI enignes running aorund, we've made over 400 hp pretty easilly and there is room to grow. TBI is a very capable system when you can control it, you wouldn't run a carb that you couldn't change the jets in would you?

I wouldn't worry about that cam too much, if the idle was farily smooth the duration numbers were small enough to cover up the narrow LSA. There are some things you can do to get through a smog test if it's close to passing.

sixty

Thanks BM for the reply. The cam had a pretty good idle with the holley carb, so I'll get it all together and see how it tunes. The stock TBI passed smog with 0 CO's and very low HC's, I'll have awhile to play with it before it gets put on machine.

The TBI has been a thousand times more reliable than any carb'd vehicle I ever owned. On a relatively mild stroker I don't see why a TBI can't outperform a carb.

On a side note, does anyone have a square bore manifold with an EGR provision? I'd really like a Weiand 7525.

eschevyrda

here comes captian obvious





















................................























another non camaro tbi question in a camaro forum.........

lol

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Uh-oh, does that mean if the TBI setup is on my Firebird that I can't post here??

RBob.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I guess that means I can't post my knowledge in the TBI or the TPI forum either.

RFmaster

Where ignorance is bliss, - ‘Tis folly to be wise'.
Thomas Gray

studdmstr

Originally Posted by Fast355
Thats MAJOR IGNORANCE right there.
You're not ignoring anything..... The definition of ignorance is the condition of being uninformed or unaware. What makes TBI systems good are they are adaptable, fairly cheap, easy to maintain and plentiful. TBI systems were used for a great many years because of this, but technology advances and moves ahead, but that doesn't mean that older technology still isn't good. A lot of us cringe at the thought of someone removing the TBI system for a Holley carb.

eschevyrda

let me use the popular phrase that the mods throw around here


"not third gen related"

im not trying to be a ***** but why is that not enforced here

every one and their mother are talking about their tbi pick up jeep ,suburban etc,

and not enough tbi third gen fbody talk


what ever

i guess its the demand that counts

camarojustin

Why be a stickler for third gen specific info, this info is good general knowledge that can apply to third gens so why not?

BMmonteSS

Some of the biggest contributors on this board don't have thirdgens........but they do have TBI and are willing to share thier knowledge. I would hope that you would remove your head from your posterior long enough to realize that you are gaining from this.

<----Check out my screen name.....I can take my stickies and leave if you would like.

va454ss

iTrader: (1)

Guess I'm excluded also...............

rocko350

do i have to leave?. i still need help with my 632.

seriously i would consider going to a junk yard and picking up a 93-95 tbi pcm. then convert to maf according to fasts sticky. mainly for consistent operation for the 10,000 feet elevation change

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

I say help the guy. TBI is TBI. If you don't want to help then don't and don't post.

sixty

Thanks guys. Would it help if I had my Cruiser titled as a 90' Camaro?

On the Landcruiser forums we get guys with Jeeps & Suzuki's posting all the time with toyota axle questions since they are running them in thier rigs. Its never a problem & most of us are happy to have them since they contribute. Hopefully we can all stay

I've thought alot about using the pcm with the MAF, but I like alot of the features of the EBL, especially since I may decide to add a blower or even nitrous in the future. Maybe Rbob will come up with a way to run the MAF in the future. When lived on the Big Island of Hawaii, the TBI never skipped a beat going from sea level to 12,000'. Hopefully I can build a tune that will do the same.

sixty

Update:

I have the engine installed and fired it up last night. It sounds real good. Its running very rich with a set of 75lb injectors at 19psi (it looks like a waterfall), so I may install the stock 350 injectors until I can get the EBL. I may even keep them in & bump the pressure up to around 35psi.

I got a good deal locally on an xtremeefi 50mm bored TB with the 40psi adjustable regulator, 75lb injectors, as well as the adapter for a FP gauge. The only thing I dont like about the bored TB is that right at the throttle shaft there is less than 1/16" left that I'm sure will develop into a vacuum leak in short order. I still may swap out to the 454TB as it is a much more solid looking unit.

I ended up replacing the Airtex External E8094 16psi fuel pump with an Airtex E2000 90psi pump ($36 shipped, Thanks Ebay!) and using a Fram HPG-1 filter that a friend gave me. The lines are 5/16" steel stock from the tank to the fire wall & then AN-6 on. I used double stainless clamps to connect the braided lines to the steel lines since I could not find a simple way to connect 5/16" tubing to AN-6. So far no leaks, but I'm definately keeping my eyes on it.

I still need to wrap up a few things:
*Finish the exhaust, I have ceramic block huggers & I'm thinking 2.5" to single 3" highflow cat to flowmaster.
*Mount the Knock sensor above the oil filter (block huggers block the standard location)
*Get the EBL and WBO2 (Have to wait for the $$)
*Figure out a VSS (didn't have one for the last 100k miles on this conversion). I'm thinking the painless & adapting between the ford bronco and stock landcruiser speedo cables.
*Extend the throttle cable.

Here's a pic (Its a shame to hide all of the bling under wire loom & hoses):

RFmaster

Sixty

Very nice!

Couple of comments:
1) 5/16" supply line is a bit small - It may have been adequate for JA engine, but for 383 you'll need a minimum 3/8 on supply side or -6AN. You may have the pressure, but you'll lack the volume of fuel when demand goes up - WOT for example.

2) VSS - check Jaguars that run website:
http://www.jagsthatrun.com/
They have a complete chapter on VSS - or call them. They are very knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to conversions.

3) Get EBL first, you can get VE's dialed in very quickly without WBO. WBO can be purchased later, when you start PE and WTO tunning. Hint, once you start your tunning lock down fuel pressure physically and base constant.

//RF

sixty

Thanks for the compliment!

I was worried about the 5/16" supply & even bought 3/8" to replace the supply. I found a couple of websites (cant find them now) where guys were using 5/16" feedlines w/ EFI and making 400+hp on a dyno, so I figured I'd give it a shot. If I have supply issues I'll replace it. (I hate working with fuel lines )

I'm familliar with the Jags that run stuff, but its pretty expensive. I need to adapt the speedo cables anyways so it shouldn't be hard to put a VSS in between. A few years ago there was a guy selling generic VSS's on Ebay that were real cheap & easily adapted to TBI. The Painless looks like my best bet.

Thats a good idea on the EBL. It will still probably be a couple of months before I can get around to purchasing it. I still need to learn alot about tunning, one thing I do understand is that I need to set my FP for WOT first & start tunning from there. Once I get the EBL, I'll dive right in and hopefully swim

Thanks for the ideas, I can definately use all the advice I get!

sixty

I replaced the injectors with my older 55lb, but one of them is leaking so I put the 454 injectors back in & turned the FP back down to 15psi. The reason it is running so rich is the MAP is not gettting enough vacuum due to the cam, no matter how I set the timing (I can't get it set right yet since it wont stop fueling). If I hook up a vacuum pump to the MAP I can get it to idle great & it stops running so rich. Hopefully I can pull it out of the garage to park it until I get the EBL.

Will I be able to get a good idle with the EBL and no WBO2?

RFmaster

Hey Sixty

Yes, you'll be able to get your idle run properly with EBL. One of the problems that you get with 111 LSA is low idle vacuum - what is it about 10 to 12 in-Hg? This is a reason why I said 114 would have been an easier choice. What's done is done. When MAP reports high KPA values, while engine is actually at idle, ECM considers that you are actually moving or under load and richen-up the mixture based on that portion of VE tables. Above can be easily remedied with couple VE learn sessions with EBL and NBO. As a rough order of adjustment you'll have to shift 30 to 40 kPa VE table values to your kPa idle area - my guess between 50 to 60 kPa depending on your engine vacuum levels at idle.

There is a MAP idle upper threshold value (for 7747) - I have to looked it up. This is way you will not set of SES due to low idle levels.

//RF

sixty

RF,

Thanks for the great info. I'll get the EBL as soon as I can. I suspected and found a few vacuum leaks when I pulled the TB & 454 spacer/adapter. My neihbor is milling the adapter flat & I made a new gasket for the bored TB. Fixing these shoudl hopefully help a little.

Thanks again for the info!

sixty

I put the milled adapter back in and installed the vacuum line to the xtremeefi FPR and now have a much better idle, althoug still rich. I was able to back it out of the garage on almost flat tires and the engine didn't skip a beat. It definately feel alot torquier than stock!

According to the vacuum gauge on my pump, it pulls about 30kpa at idle. when I apply vacuum to the map sensor it runs best around 55kpa and starts to die at about 80kpa.

Hopefully in the next month I'll have the exahust redone & get the EBL.

Thanks again for everyones help!

RFmaster

Hey Sixty

30 kPa is equivalent to 20.7 in-Hg which is high vacuum - decelerating in gear for example. From my observations 'pure' stock engines will idle between 30 and 40 kPA (20.7 to 17.7 in-Hg) and if you are using 460 or 039 GM MAP sensor equivalent voltage should be between 1.07 to 1.62 volts on Pin B of MAP sensor (light green wire). The reason why it's probably runs better when you apply 55 kPa (13.3 in-Hg) to MAP sensor is that you get a bit less SA and engine is able to burn this excess fuel fully. Since I do not know which calibration you have any further discussions are rather moot. With EBL (get a flash version, it makes changes a breeze!) being a next step investing into EPROM chips, socket and burner redundant.

I just took a quick look at my SA and VE tables, and a word of caution it is only applicable to my combo - at 600 RPM, I run flat 20 degrees of timing across 20 to 60 kPa, but my VE's fluctuate up and down between 20 to 55 kPa region. Above is a result of many VE learn sessions, but it is very possible that I never hit certain combinations of RPM and MAP values during my test drives. For the most part my BLM's are 128 +/- 3 units as observed over the last 6 month and about 1500 miles. I'll use Grumpie's (SK) sayings - give engine what it wants and it will be happy.

//RF

sixty

Thanks again RF!

I think a large part of my problem was the vacuum leaks. In order to use the 454 adapter to an Edelbrock performer it needs to be milled flat on the bottom to match up. It seems to run much better now, but still on the rich side. Its good to know that the cam makes good vacuum.

I am definately planning on the Flash EBL, I'll be sending one of my ecms (7747 & 7746) out to have Rbob do the install.

Now I have a bunch of leaks to fix (pan, balancer seal, transmission @ transfer etc..) :-(

brokenparts

BTT...

sixty

A quick update to this thread....

I have installed the EBL (did the install myself) and have the VE pretty close. The engine feels like a beast and runs like a top. The roller rockers have not caused any false counts to the knock sensor. I still have a ways to go on my tune, but its very driveable right now and the idle sounds pretty close to stock.

Anyone considering putting a performance small block in thier TBI car, I highly recommend the EBL and WB02. So far I'm very happy with my setup

brokenparts

I didnt know that roller rockers may cause false knocks. Is this a common thing?

sixty

It's a common belief that since rollers are louder than stamped they can cause false knocks. I could not find anyone that has experienced it first hand and so far I have seen no counts that can be attributed to the roller rockers.
I think it would take a really loud rocker to set off the sensor, since it takes a pretty sharp tap on the block to register a knock. It could also be from an overtightened sensor since thet is reported to make then very sensative.