JerseyMark

iTrader: (2)

Hey guys,
Within the next year or so, I will be taking out the 305 in my Camaro and replacing it with something that has alittle more grunt. I am debating on either an LS1 or a 400 CSB. The LS1 will cost more, but then I will have Fuel injection. (A BIG plus in my book.) Either way, I will be bolting up a T56 to it, so they would both be a great motor. What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Mark B

84zeddd

For what it would cost to install a fuel injected LS1 in your car,
you could build a carbed 406 that will beat the LS1 in everything but fuel mileage.

megaracerx

ok...i know i'm gonna get flamed for this one but...i dont think ls1's should be put in a 3rd gen.jmo...but however...i have respect for the ls1 one 3rd gen so dont get me wrong...anyway..i would go with the 400...throw a twin turbo setup...that would kick major ***...


:lala: :lala:

MrDude_1

as the owner of a freshly built blown 400 SBC in a 3rdgen vert.. i can tell ya.....


... i kinda wish i went with the LS1..

you can get the engine/ trans combos for 3k-5k now.... thats less then a 400 engine build and a T56 setup. the only additional cost is the engine mounts... (t56 crossmember is the same)




if i went with the LS1, i could have similar power output as my car did N/A, but i can also drive the car distances i cant with my badass solid roller setup.

and i love roadtrips.. and i drive too much... i put about 2k in miles a month... not from commute.. no, i live less then 3 miles from work... i do it because in the evenings, esp in the fall, i just drive around.

the 400 is killing me doing that.... and i cant race it without a cage now.. even a bar isnt enough.. meanwhile with the LS1, it could still bracket race (and need a bar, but not a cage) and i could atleast have perfect street manners.... not as brutal atleast..



im not pro one or the other... im just writing my personal experiance and feelings on the subject at this moment....

sellmanb

As stated by Mr. Dude, LS1 engine/tranny (tranny being a t-56 ) are a lot cheaper than you may think. Plus, they are more feasible for the street. If you have this car as a weekend warrior or purely show/strip then go with the 400, but if you need to depend on this car daily / frequently then I would go with the LS1.

The LS1 will respond well to mods as well (not as well as the 400 obviously), with a 400 block you have just that, a block and lower end. You still need to figure out your own top end (a pain for some). With the LS1 you have the whole setup already, slap exhaust, CAI, a few other simple bolt-ons, and a tune, and you're set. (Of course you'll still need the mounts and K-Member)

Plus, if you got the LS1 to 400HP, and the SBC 400 to 400HP, the LS1 would STILL get MUCH better gas mileage. Plus, isnt the LS1 lighter than most SBC 400s? thinking out loud now.

One vote for LS1 except if your car is purely show/strip then I would go with the 400

LUVmy92

LS1 for all the reasons all ready stated

88TPI406GTA

The LS1 is a phenominal engine setup...but I would go with the 400 sbc.

When you are doing a comparison, compare apples to apples, not a FI LS1 to a carbed 400.

I would think that an HSR, AFR 195 heads with approx a XE274 cam with a 406 would be more fun than the LS1...and parts will be cheaper for the 406.

It really depends on what you want. I have really thought about doing an LS1 swap on my GTA, but I wouldn't go through the effort just to swap in a stock LS1..and the mods are not cheap

I would come up with an actual budget and see what you can afford. If you can afford the LS1, go for it...

sellmanb

well, they are apples and apples... seeing as these are our only choices to choose from

As I see it, mods are more expensive for the LS1, but mods are not required to keep the car going day to day.

Mods are less expensive for the 400, but gas is required to keep the car going day to day

The 400 will definetly be funner to drive though, with more potential with bang for your bucks.

The LS1 is more practicle, and still more than powerful than most everything else on the street.

and thus, I re-state. LS1 if frequently driven, 400 if strictly weekend, strip, show.

Guess it would be nice to know the uses of this car so I could accurately give you my opinion though! But it's obvious that I lean towards the LS1

cam-

LS1 especially with your generous time frame. I agree the price is dropping on the LS style engines now quite qickly as supply is overtaking demand. Its hard to argue the potential of the newer design engines versus the streetability issue of cranking it out of a fifty year old design. That being said I am in the middle of building up a 406 Hehe I already have the t56 and exhaust etc etc or it would be carbed 6.0litre LQ9 MM6 for me all the way!

JerseyMark

iTrader: (2)

I use the car quite frequently right now. (Since its still nice outside.) But I do not rely on my camaro. I have a beater car that I drive to work and stuff. And I probably wont drive it much during the colder months.

my3rdgen

I would go with the 400 if it were mine only because the car is already made for the small block. Easy swap. But that is just me. If you have the time then do the LS-1.

I thought it would take no time at all to swap my 305 for a 355. Its been 2 years and the motor, tranny and rear end are just about done. It runs, but not ready yet.

Took much more time that I ever expected. Has been a monumental task for me to complete. I still have to paint it too. I desided that in order to get it completely done and to all the car shows next summer, I am going to just pay one of the supervisors, a friend of mine, at work paint it for me. (he used to do body work for a living)

ME Leigh

I'd love to have an LS1, all aluminum engine, 400hp, and 30 mpg. A 400 would be cool, but a LS1 will be better in the long run.

Chris89GTA

iTrader: (2)

Personally the LS1 would be my choice. I know the direct bolt in of the 400 makes it lucrative, but come on. The LS1 setups are the way to go. Best of everything IMO. Great power, great torque, great drivability, and w/ a budget heads/cam setup and easy 400-440 to the wheels!!!

I almost wish for the money I put into the 355 and etc, and now having to build the tranny, I had gone w/ the LS1 T56!!!

cam-

There is no doubt the LS1 is starting to make the gen 1 small block design kind of look like the old flatheads did when overhead valves came out. Lighter...durable...effecient...incredible power potential... Ah who am I kidding I'm gonna have to get one too!

92camarors5spd

why not get both.....zl-408 its slp's ls1 stroker. comes complete all you have to do is get a set of heads and intake and cam. they say with the right sets you can make 500hp+ easy

cam-

I live ten minutes away from Augostino racing engines. Home of some of the worlds fastest LS1's

Very serious shop.

http://www.agostino-racing.com/

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

LS1.....just for the weight savings and the fuel injection...oh and the reliabilty

scottland

Look up reliable in the dictionary, first your see a picture of a diesel, then a picture of a SBC.

I'm not going to get into the argument of which is better. I've done that too many times, and its getting old.

But i can tell you that i wouldn't make a 3-5 thousand dollar decision based on what people on the internet have to say.

B4Ctom1

The 412 I built and put in the B4C propelled it to identical times as the modified LS1's here run. 13.6 @ 6000 feet altitude.

PS the car has WAY the wrong cam for the compression and accel intake.

edit: I missed the part where your car is TBI, that does propose some solutions needed to run the 400 with power unless you know how to burn a chip.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I vote traditional small block all the way.

The LS1 is cool, don't get me wrong, but there will ALWAYS be the "next" motor...or the "new" motor. There's something special (IMO) about using the same basic motor as all the muscle cars of old. It's part of the history of our hobby.


I'd rather make oboxious noisy HP, than quiet efficient HP, even if it's the same number!

I still think that how you're gonna use it really makes all the difference.

...and let's just say that the LS1 swap isn't without it's flaws. There are a LOT of things that can go wrong. I'll leave it at that.

B4Ctom1

the logistics of putting a 400 where your 305 are much less than the logitics of putting a LS1 in. Anyone that has watched their project sit in "money jail" can attest to that.

megaracerx

i wasnt thinking about gas milage/reliabilty ect ect...i would love to have both...how ever...as stated the 400 would be an awsome weekend warrior!....but the Ls1 is a smarter choice for daily driving

cam-

B4Ctom1 makes a good point too that its not a direct bolt in and requires some fairly involved work getting one in and running especially with the fuel injection and all.

Dzhezkov

iTrader: (1)

Is there any reason as to why the 400 can't be fuel injected as well? You can pick up a working stealth ram/superram second hand probably, maybe one of those converted LT1 intakes. (Yes, I intentionally left out mentioning the miniram)

The LS1 would still be better in MPG, but an injected 400 is a middle ground between carbed engine and LS1 when it comes to fuel mileage.

MrDude_1

i disagree.

and hear me out on this.

with the motor mounts... its a bolt in... esp for me since i already have a T56 crossmember. that makes that part easy. the motor physicly bolts in just as easy as a SBC..... (id assume you would change your worn mounts when you swap engines anyway..)

so now we have fuel system. you need a in tank pump (you have one if you're TPI) and a fuel regulator.

so the 1st major mod is a adjustible fuel regulator and the connection fittings.
lets be honest here. if you're doing ANY engine swap, you should have the basic mechanical skill for that.


next theres wiring. the harness is already there. what you will have to do is look in a book and connect power, igntion and ground to the loose wires.. and a nutural switch... for the electrical un-inclined, this may look daunting. but honestly, theres not alot of wires loose, and just take it one at a time. thats why they're color coded.

the ECM - send to be programmed... mostly they just have to delete the codes that go off...


this is the only real fabbing... the exhaust.
any good exhaust shop can make a great one. but even a sh!tty one can make you somthing to get on the road with if cash is tight. this is the exact same fabbing needed if you plan to run longtubes with your 400.

for the air intake, you have alot of options... personally, id go with the stock camaro intake Y and some ducting into the MAF. easy as pie.


thats it. what hard fabbing did i miss?

88TPI406GTA

Why is there the assumption that a 400 HP LS1 will get 30 mpg while a 400 HP 400 sbc will automatically get crappy mileage?

It mostly depends on your overdrive rather than the fuel delivery system.. Case in point: About 4 years ago, a friend of mine with a carbed 406 in a 1981 Grand Prix had the 2.41 non-posi rear end and installed a 200R4. When he was being nice to it, he got 22-23 highway…when he flogged it, his mileage dropped considerably. It was a mild carb buildup (about 330 HP and a lot of torque) and he slapped the 650 cfm Holley carb on and never tuned it.

The 30 MPG stock LS1 mileage amounts are with the .5 overdrive of the T-56. I have never seen gas mileage reports of higher HP LS1s that indicate 30+ MPG.

I would put the 400 in WITH fuel injection…as I should have indicated in an earlier post. AND a T-56.

no_car_yet

i am currently building a 408 miniram for my 91 GTA. i am undecided to either fully build the 700R4 or build a t56.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I never said an SBC wasn't reliable...however, I used to work with GM powertrain and I know what kind of engineering went into the LS1....I guess I just would rather have that technology under my hood. So don't give me the B.S. line about "reading what other people say on the internet" I wrenched on the bottom end of the LS1 motor almost two years before it went into production.

cam-

MrDude1 I guess I should have explained myself a little more clearly but what i was refering too is what I have read about the AC compressor requiring a notch in the engine cradle to fit but of course not all care about AC so thats an issue that may or may not affect one depending on their chosen route here.

I was thinking too about the exhaust and throttle cables and electrical connections and so on. I have not done this swap ( yet! hehee ) but these things can take up considerable time and become frustrating. Don't get me wrong I am not trying claim this is something that only the pros should attempt as I too feel it is plenty reasonable and pretty straight forward but its certainly not as easy as bolting in a 400(6) as that is nothing more than nuts and bolts.

As far as fuel injection goes so far I only have had bone stock fuel injected cars/trucks because so many of my friends have spent countless hours tweaking fuel pressure, swapping injectors, reprogramming this and that and rarely do any of them get their engines performing as well as I could in one afternoon with a Holley I love fuel injection but I am a little out of touch in the relm of tuning it as well as a carb. Thats why when I swap an LS1 or more likely an LQ9 I will get the carbed intake to make it easier on myself

You make some good points though

jrg77

The LS1 is okay if you plan to go nuts in stages...
Step 1. Do the swap
Step 2. Save to make it a killer on the rebuild.

The 400 is what you would do if you only want to get down and dirty with this car one really good time.

You can do a realatively inexpensive 400 build and get similar numbers to a stock LS1 for the same cost. For a couple of grand more you can be close to 500hp and fuel injected (TPI style).

I have my 400 block in the garage. The gen III doesn't start to look interesting until I can get the LQ9 (Escalade Engine) and do all the Z06 mods to it. But that is at least 2000 over the LS1 swap.

Jason

joshwilson3

.

jrg77

They will be the latest, greatest, neatest gadget on the block.

I don't think there will be an era that lasts as long as the Gen I block era did. everything else will just just be a flash in the pan. 5-10 years and they'll be on to something new. With the corporate offices seeing that they can generate additional cash by niche marketing their powerplants they will also keep prices up by changing stuff around. Heck the SB2.2 isn't even current tech anymore. It didn't even trickle into the non-competition market.

That I suppose is one reason to stick with the 400 block. It may actually have some staying power. There's still a large market for Gen I stuff. How big the Gen III market grows is up to pure speculation.

Jason

Thunderstruck

Hold on guys ! I have a solution to the engine choice
dilema.

Those of you that prefer a LS1 just simply go buy a
Gen 4 car (98 0n up)

Those of us that prefer a traditional SBC, will be only
to happy to keep our 3rd Gens as near stock looking
as possible. Whats really nice is the fact that a 3rd Gen
with the stock configuration SB, will be worth a hell of
alot more in 5 to ten years.

Oh yeah, I love getting my valve covers off in 2 minutes.



toodles,

John B.

MrDude_1

umm... because they're fugly. thats why.

i admit it. theres cars out there that do everything better then a thirdgen (and if you cant admit it, you're in de-nile... and i dont mean the river in egypt. )



in 5 - 10 years a near stock thirdgen worth alot more? ehh. probly not. if its in perfect shape it might be worth a little more money, but its going to take a good 25-30 years before anyone will look at them as collectable.

ScottyRS

iTrader: (2)

Get a 383 and call it even

cam-

toodles

MrDude_1

i dont get the toodles part... but thats why i dont own a 4thgen.

they're ugly. the only one id even vaguly accept is a 98+ trans am, and even then, im not thrilled about how they look. its just "acceptable"


in anycase, i'll build my car how i want it and you can build....errr well build nothing at all, leave it stock... im sure as long as it looks pretty, someone will buy it.

cam-

:werd:

Air_Adam

Stroker LS1... then you got the best of both worlds. Not only do you have one of the lightest American V8s ever to be mass produced, but you also have a very efficient engine that makes alot of power, and is still f*cking huge.

IIRC, you can now get stroker kits bigger than 383" for the LS1... like a 396 or a 400-something, or even a 427!!

As much as I love the Gen 1 engines, I say go with a stroker LS1.

B4Ctom1

I will wait until its not the hot new thing anymore, maybe when the next "cool engine" comes out the prices on all of the outrageously priced LS1 stuff will become humbled. Its a trend a gimmick, its new today and old tomorrow just like the LT1 and TPI were at one time.

someday a LS1 in anything will be a "hmm thats nice".

Air_Adam

Thats already started since the Hemi made its appearance in '03. The new Hemi is now the big thing, even though its way over-rated, especially compared to the LS-based engines.

Most people don't know this, but the new Hemi is not even a true Hemi! The chambers are not hemispherical like they would have to be to be a true Hemi, like the old 331/354/392/426 engines.

The Hemi does make about the same power (stock) as an LS1, but uses twice the gas to do it.

Just and my

blacksheep-1

If it matters to you guys,( and it may not) Chevy has just released a carb manifold for the LS-1 engine. I just thought I'd throw that in the mix in case you weren't aware of it.

jrg77

The concept of upgrading started with the premise that for a less money than spending on a brand new car one can have something that performs as well, if not better.

Up t about 400hp my guess is that the LS1 is cheaper,but more involved. Above that I suspect they cost about the same, depending on the quality of the products you consider. I don't have any quantifiable facts to support this other than checking around online to get the sense of building both.

A brand new LQ9 runs about $3500. A brand new t56 runs about $1500. Spend $500 less and you get used a used LS1 and T56 together. Spend about another $3000 and you have an engine that will probably have 500hp and a trans that can take 700hp.

$8000 will get you a 500hp gen I and the same T56, carbed or EFI if you are into DIY computer stuff.

My sense is that the gen III stuff will never truly get down to the gen I pricepoint due to the shear number of gen I projects available and the support for them. It will get as cheap as the LT1 stuff. They don't/won't make aftermarket LTx blocks. They will continue to make gen I blocks. gen III blocks are available from GM now. If World Castings gets behind the gen III (after the patent is over) then you can tell the actual longevity.

Jason

Thunderstruck

You guys liked that " toodles " thing huh ? I was
laughing when I signed it.

Mr Dude is off about 10 or 15 years about Gen 3's
becoming collectable. They are increasing in value as
I type this post.

Also a little side note regarding LS1's I go through alot
of cars in a year. Many of these cars are LS1's. I have
learned that soft aluminum motors with weak oil pumps
are NOT cool. Sure they may be all the rage, but I
doubt they will ever be what the Gen1 SB is. Will these
LS1's stand the test of time and abuse like so many
older SB's have ? I doubt it.

Maybe Chevy will start racing these aluminum wonders
in NASCAR. As long as they don't mind warped heads
and having to align bore after every race they might
work out. They use the iron SB2's because of reliability
and rightly so.

To each his own, but when it comes to reliability in a
race or Hi-perf street enviroment, I'll stick with the
Duntov design.


Thankya thankyavermusch

cam-

LS1's will never "replace" the small block just as small blocks never "replaced" flat head fords. To take the attitude of "they don't build em like they used to..." is foolhardy. GM has spent millions developing the LS style engines and if you have had bad luck with them thats a rare instance definitely not the norm or there would be all kinds of uproar from the millions of customers who have purchased a truck or car with one. There is no doubt that an LS style engine is superior in almost everyway to the older small block design. NASCAR is not about making the most power its about keeping the teams comparably powered or you darn well better believe they would be running some radically different engines than they are.

The small block is not going anywhere soon no matter how great the LS engines are. Its hard to argue against fifty years of devolpment and the simplicity of running a proven combo.

As far as the collectability concern there are some models that are fetching good coin but MrDude is right that it will be at least 20 years before any non special model (1LE, TTA, Firehawk ) third gen will become a collectable. Increasing in value and collectable are VERY different issues. Regardless this thread is about whether to run a 400 or go for an LS1 and lets stick to the topic at hand.

If I did not already have a 400 underway I would certainly start on an LS1 ( LQ9 ) instead. There are too many head cam combos that drive the fourth gens into the tens with these wondermills. LS1=

scottland

I know this is a very general assumtion, but for the most part it is true.

Most 3rd gen owners don't have large amounts of spending money. Which is in part some of the reason they own 3rd gens.

Most 4th gen owners either have more spending money, or have no problem putting themselves farther into debt. Which is in part some of the reason they own 4th gens.

Getting to the point. A 382 or 408 LS1 stroker is very expensive(i won't even get into the 427). The shortblock alone costs more than most aggresive GEN I builds(complete carb to pan).

A stroker kit alone usually runs around 2-4 thousand, complete shortblocks are in the 5-8 thousand dollar range. I don't know about you, but for that kind of money, I could build a one mean small block, and still have money left over.

Very few 4th gen owners can afford a LS1 stroker, so i'm going to venture a guess an say even less 3rd gen onwers can afford one.

So by going by the same logic, why not go with SB2 or 2.2 parts. hell, you can get heads and intake used for usually under 3-4 grand.

And most of the time they already have material added to the deck to bring the cc's up to a streetable level.

and i am pretty sure that a SB2.2 equipped 400 would stomp a mudhole in the a** of pretty much every N/A LS1 out there.

B4Ctom1

yeah it is part # 88958675 for the LS1 LS6

GMpartsdirect $325
SDPC2000 $330



MSD is building a programmable ignition setup to run off the crank sensor which hopefull will allow user programmable curves. It utilizes the the coilpacks for edelbrock.

edelbrock is already casting an intake and is/will be offering the ignition box as a kit. see here

some early dyno results are showing significant horsepower increases on an LS1 that surpass that of the LS6

stay tuned to your favorite magazine for overexposure of this news


I like the idea of a carbed intakes means user buildable EFI intakes from the carbed intake for LS1 EFI racers

or hell check this carb deal out:



heck just imagine:

1)use the bigger GM single plane intake instead of the edelbrock dual plane intake with part of the ports blocked off

2)use a nice holley double pumper instead of the edelbrock carb

3) run a hotter LS1 race cam instead of that smallish edelbrock cam


and you could probably make 500 hp with a otherwise stock LS1!!!! 500 normally asperated aluminum lightweight horsepower from a wrecking yard motor!

or put it on a 6.0 long block!

or put it on an LS6!

or put a super powershot 150 shot on it!

thats it I am convinced!!!!!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My stock (hah) looking thirdgen:

Thunderstruck

* Please put down the crack pipe * ????

Little personal there Anesthes Markets vary
and yours may be different than ours in the Mid- Atlantic
States. One thing for sure is when you try to buy a nice
3rd Gen at a big Auto Auction here in Pa, you better
bring a wad of money with you. Granted, many
do not fall in the collectable catorgory YET, but then
again neither did 69-72 Chevelles 25 years ago.

I could have lined up a boat load of 69 chevelles in 1976
for an average price of $1200.

Only problem is, I wish I would have. I would be a
Millionare


OBTW Anesthes, you really need to clean up that engine
bay, especially the wiring. Looks like a electrical fire
just waiting to happen.