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I just had a shop install a Comp XE294 cam and lifter kit as well as Howards 98215 springs good for .600 lift. When the shop fired it up to break in the cam it ran fine for a couple of minutes then rockers started clacking and the oil pressure started to drop.
They say 2 or 3 lobes got wiped for sure. Any ideas what would be the culprit. The Howards springs are within 2 or 3 lbs of what Comp recommends at various open increments.
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I second what RB said. In the world of hi-performance cars, there should be no assumptions. Because, as well all know, assumptions are the mother of all f- ups.
If they screwed up and didn't verify clearances properly, you might just want to leave it there while they fix it. If they took on the job, including knowing whether the combination should work together, then they should fix it for no more than what the original agreed-to price was.
I picked my car up yesterday. They had one of the lifters out and showed it to me. The wear is all in one direction so it tells me the lifters weren't rotating. The batteries on my camera are dead when I get some new ones I will post a pic of the lifter. They also told me they ran it for 10 minutes and the oil pressure got under 20 at 2500rpm.
I'd think fastburn heads would max out at around .480 to .500 lift without cutting the guides. Check this first - then search the various forums for Comp Cams problems of late.
So they did at least fix it before you picked it up right?
The race shop didn't offer to do anything to rectify it so we winched it on the trailer and brought it home. The engine has to come out to clean, inspect, and replace what needs to be replaced.
The reason I took my car to a race shop is I thought they would know how to properly install and break in a cam.
The race shop didn't offer to do anything to rectify it so we winched it on the trailer and brought it home.
Of course they didnt offer, because you didnt say anything. Call them back, and demand some sort of fix. At the very least it should cost you the new part(s), and labor covered by the first payment.
__________________ Yes, I may work on rice, but I dont play with it.
Cams and lifters don't wipe out that fast, unless there is a SERIOUS problem somewhere. It usually takes one about a couple thousand miles to wipe out from simply a lifter not turning. Having multiple lifters not turning is an almost certain sign of a build malfunction.
You had a lack of clearance somewhere, period. Either the retainers hit the guides, or the coils stacked up, or the end of the rocker slots hit the studs, or SOMETHING.
Don't just change out the cam (even if Comp warranties it) and think you're going to slide another one in there and have it work. If the underlying problem is not found and fixed, it'll just eat that one too, just as fast. You need to find out what went wrong. Your shop should have done that; whether it's their fault or not, since they took your money for building it and it screwed up, they owe you at least an accurate and complete diagnosis. That's what you paid them for, was their "expertise": not just the service of turning some bolts.
By the way, this is why I build ALL my own stuff, to the greatest extent possible.
__________________ "So many Mustangs, so little time..."
Has this "race shop" been in business long? If so, I want to know thier secret. They obviously know something other places don't. They do a half-*** install of parts neglecting to do even basic measurements, causing possible severe engine damage, charging you, and then not even making an attempt to recitify the problem.
I just build a stroker with a big lift cam and comp cams said during break in leave the inner spring out. This will help with the cam lifter break in. Just the first 20 min. or so then install the inner spring. They said I would have a goood chance of doing in a few lobes otherwise.
With that much damage you better check the bottom end as well. Bearings could be damaged. Right now I'd be screaming at that shop to refund ALL of your money and replace the damaged parts. They obviously F**ked up somewhere. Cams and lifters do not fail that quickly unless something is overlooked...and that's what you paid then good money to NOT do.
Take them to small claims court or threaten with a Lawyer if they don't come good.
Of course they didnt offer, because you didnt say anything. Call them back, and demand some sort of fix. At the very least it should cost you the new part(s), and labor covered by the first payment.
Obviously I asked them to rectify this situation. They wanted what I owed them to that point plus the total cost of everything from then on. Why would I pay this shop to do any more work?
The engine will be coming out when I have the time. Totally cleaned up, any machining, and new parts installed.
I just hadn't planned on spending 2500 on top of the 800 I have already spent on the failed cam swap.
Originally posted by Chickenman35 With that much damage you better check the bottom end as well. Bearings could be damaged. Right now I'd be screaming at that shop to refund ALL of your money and replace the damaged parts. They obviously F**ked up somewhere. Cams and lifters do not fail that quickly unless something is overlooked...and that's what you paid then good money to NOT do.
Take them to small claims court or threaten with a Lawyer if they don't come good.
Threatening with a lawyer doesn't work in Canada. They know that unless the bill is over $5,000 (and even that is debateable), the cost to sue will be more than the recovery. Also, just because you get a "judgement" doesn't mean they'll pay.
But I would contact the local Better Business Bureau. If the shop is reputable and cares about staying in business, then they will want to protect their good name. However, if they are "slime buckets" and don't give a damn, the only consolation will be that they soon will be out of business.
As RB said, it's a good reason why you should do your own work. Based on the results, you couldn't have done any worst.
PS: I would look very carefully at the lifter bores.
Originally posted by RB83L69 Cams and lifters don't wipe out that fast, unless there is a SERIOUS problem somewhere. It usually takes one about a couple thousand miles to wipe out from simply a lifter not turning.
You're right about that one for sure! Less than 3 weeks after my XE274 install my engine started running rough and lacked power, and got progressively worse. Within a couple hundred miles after the first symptoms, it got so bad I tore into it. Sure enough I wiped the #7 intake lobe. Lifter looked similar to pic above. Foolishly I installed another cam and lifter set. Nearly the same results soon after. Talked to some of the guys at the shop I work at and they all agreed on cleaning up the lifter bore. I used a wheel cylinder honing kit. Installed a 3rd cam and lifter kit and have been trouble free since!
Originally posted by Glenn91L98GTA Threatening with a lawyer doesn't work in Canada. They know that unless the bill is over $5,000 (and even that is debateable), the cost to sue will be more than the recovery. Also, just because you get a "judgement" doesn't mean they'll pay.
But I would contact the local Better Business Bureau. If the shop is reputable and cares about staying in business, then they will want to protect their good name. However, if they are "slime buckets" and don't give a damn, the only consolation will be that they soon will be out of business.
As RB said, it's a good reason why you should do your own work. Based on the results, you couldn't have done any worst.
PS: I would look very carefully at the lifter bores.
Yeah...I hadn't noticed that he was in Saskatchewan. Certainly a claim to the BB bureau wouldn't hurt...but Small Claims court is an option.
What shop was this, Blackroc? There are some others here from SK who have had a few problems with certain shops. Send a PM to Trevor Jacek, he had some problems this summer from a shop here in SK that built a 383 for him. Can't recall the name of the shop though.
I think maybe us SK guys should have a list of these kinds of places. Sad but true.
BTW - Trevor, if you see this... whats happened with your situation? Any good news?
Adam, I do know Blackroc86 (Jim) fairly well. I've even had the pleasue of driving his car. It wasn't the same shop. He took his to Regina and I had trouble with Thane's (Prarie Engne) in Saskatoon. I haven't really done anything with my motor. I am not 100% sure what I am going to do (ie. want to build a 400) but am know leaning towards redoing what I already have with the exception of maybe switching cams. I am also not sure where I will get my machine work done.
__________________ 1986 Trans Am
406, 11:1 compression, AFR 195, Demon 750 DP, Performer RPM, Comp solid roller 236/242 - 614"/.629", Crane Gold 1.6 roller rockers, MSD Pro Billet distributor, Digital 6, Hooker 2210s, th350, JW 4200 stall, Moser 9" with 35 spline axles, Detroit Locker and 3.89 gears, 28x11.50 ET Streets, 3600lbs race weight 11.719@115.14mph, 1.64 60' Click here to see Video
Originally posted by N8MAN1068 is it just me, or do alot of people on here have problems with comp cams wiping lobes on break in?
i dont think have to take springs out during initial break in is a good sign. sounds like monkey business to me.
That's why people keep wiping out lifters and lobes. It is S.O.P. on big flat tappet cams. That, or install 1.2 ratio " Break-in" rockers. "Professional " ( obviously not these slime balls in SASK ) shops that build a lot of engines have a set of these for most popular engine models.
I will agree on one thing though, it is generally even MORE critical with Big Comp cams. Why? Because Comp uses a VERY agressive ramp in comparison to other mfg's. This builds good power, but is hard on valve-trains and proper breakin ( IE: Using 1.2 ratio rockers or removing inner springs ) is vital.
I'm with RB. Even if they forgot the oil, that wouldn't wipe the lifter and cam lobe that fast (within reason). Clearance issue or total ****-up. Just out of curiosity, do you have picks of the others and the pushrods? Have you gotten the intake off yet?
Originally posted by Red Devil I'm with RB. Even if they forgot the oil, that wouldn't wipe the lifter and cam lobe that fast (within reason). Clearance issue or total ****-up. Just out of curiosity, do you have picks of the others and the pushrods? Have you gotten the intake off yet?
You mean forgetting the cam lube? Oh yeah...that would wipe a Cam out in a couple of minutes.....no problemo. Even dropping the idle too low in the first twenty minutes is a big NO NO.
However, obviously this place did something wrong, and the customer should not be paying for the the shops screwup.
The guys at the machine shop said the engine lost oil pressure. I had the soft plugs(behind the cam gear) that go into the lifter galley pop out on my 350. While this shouldn't affect the lubrication of the cam at the lifter/lobe, it is possible it played a role in the destruction of the engine. Seems like an awfully quick meltdown though....Were you present during break in? Could they be feeding you a line of BS about what happened?
Originally posted by Chickenman35 You mean forgetting the cam lube? Oh yeah...that would wipe a Cam out in a couple of minutes.....no problemo. Even dropping the idle too low in the first twenty minutes is a big NO NO.
However, obviously this place did something wrong, and the customer should not be paying for the the shops screwup.
No, I was being facetious, I meant oil. Oil and lube seem to be spelled differently, but what do I know. And it looks like the end of that lifter was put up against a grinder in that first pic. That was no lube failure, or if there was it was compounded by something worse.
So basically it took out every single lobe... still looks like an assembly problem to me. Looks like the whole thing never even had a chance.
Did you check the retainer-to-guide clearance AS CURRENTLY SET UP yet, and the coil bind height AS THE SPRINGS ARE CURRENTLY SET UP (not just what the "book" says they're capable of)? If they're slot type rockers, what about the slot length?
__________________ "So many Mustangs, so little time..."
The engine is at the machine shop now and I am waiting for their quote. The metal shavings started the wristpins binding to the pistons. He said the bearings didn't look too bad.
As for checking clearances etc. that is a little too late now. I am not sure what way I am going with a cam this time. I definately won't be reusing anything from that misadventure.
Leaning towards a hydraulic roller now as I am not sure as solid roller would work with the Self aligning rockers I need to use on the Fastburn heads.
No, it's not too late. Sooner or later, you're going to have confront the obvious fact, that something slammed into something else that it wasn't supposed to; and if you don't find out what it is and deal with it, you'll be right back where you are now, within about the same 30 minutes or so of run time on your next build. Engine #2 will go up in smoke just like engine #1. The problem isn't going to just magically go away by curing some of the after-effects and symptoms.
What hit what? Where is the interference? Go find out, or make whoever you're spending your money with find out, because if you don't, you're in for a second rude shock.
Screw the bearings. Change them. That's a given, It doesn't matter what they look like, they're GARBAGE, and he knows it (or ought to....) Tell the moron to get his head out of his rectum, and pay attention to what really counts instead of being distracted by shiny things along his path, and FIND OUT WHAT HE PUT TOGETHER WRONG.
Catch me when it happens again, and I'll tell you how I really feel about people who don't get a clue when looking at the charred and ruined debris of their own mistaken handiwork.
Incidentally, the shavings didn't do ANYTHING to the wrist pins; it didn't run long enough. Tell them to leave that crap alone and concentrate on finding out what they did wrong.
__________________ "So many Mustangs, so little time..."
Just trying to make a point.... personally, I think you're getting hosed. They're doing everything possible to avoid the real issue at hand.... which is of course, to find out why it failed in the first place. Be an educated consumer, and hold their feet (and any other more sensitive body parts if possible) to the fire, until they do the right thing, and troubleshoot the problem.
Otherwise, what I foresee happening, is they put it all back together, with the bomb still in it; it immediately goes up in smoke again; they tell you it's something wrong with your parts, it's all your fault, pay their bill ..... twice. And you're left with a large basket of scrap parts.
Don't let it happen.
__________________ "So many Mustangs, so little time..."
Don't worry. I am not happy about taking a car that was running fine to a race shop for a cam swap and coming home with a broken engine. I have all winter to sort this out and it will be done right this time.
Originally posted by RB83L69 Just trying to make a point.... personally, I think you're getting hosed. They're doing everything possible to avoid the real issue at hand.... which is of course, to find out why it failed in the first place. Be an educated consumer, and hold their feet (and any other more sensitive body parts if possible) to the fire, until they do the right thing, and troubleshoot the problem.
Otherwise, what I foresee happening, is they put it all back together, with the bomb still in it; it immediately goes up in smoke again; they tell you it's something wrong with your parts, it's all your fault, pay their bill ..... twice. And you're left with a large basket of scrap parts.
Don't let it happen.
I may be wrong here...but I'm thinking Blackroc86's Machine Shop is a different place from the "Race Shop".
I suspect coil bind at the very minimum. Did any one look up the specs for those Howard springs? I did. They are a 1.250" SINGLE coil spring. With the cam you have it is VERY unlikely that those will do the job. Edelbrock springs in there RPM heads are suppossed to be good to .575" lift ( I believe ). They are...as long as you don't rev it over 5,000 RPM. And what did you use for retainers? If the incorrect retainer was used, then you very well could have the spring below it's minimum installed height. Was installed height checked? Were the springs checked for coil bind?
As others have said. EVERYTHING, springs, pushrod guide holes, rocker slots ( Use using stamped steel rockers, retainer to guide clearnce ( actually...retainer to seal ) has to be checked for clearnace.
Don't mix and match components unless you know what you are doing. Buy the recommended Cam, springs AND retainers from one manufacturer and be done with it. Yes, you will have to machine the spring pockets....but that should have been done in the first place.
The hydraulic roller is definately a good idea though. These days there is know way I would even consider buiding a big flat tappet motor. It's either Hydraulic roller or Solid roller. Lots of manufacturers make street Solid rollers as well.
I'm not a big fan of Comp Cams. Lets not get into any arguements or flame wars here. That's just my opinion. IMHO I would look at a completes Hydraulic Roller ( or Solid Roller setup ) from Crane, Isky or Lunati. Isky can't be beat for quality but price is a bit higher. But ya gets what ya payz for....
Last edited by Chickenman35; 10-23-2004 at 08:02 PM.
It wasn't the same shop. He took his to Regina and I had trouble with Thane's (Prarie Engne) in Saskatoon. I haven't really done anything with my motor. I am not 100% sure what I am going to do (ie. want to build a 400) but am know leaning towards redoing what I already have with the exception of maybe switching cams. I am also not sure where I will get my machine work done. 
