Big4x4Ride

2 bolt main 350 punched .040, dipped, new cam bearings etc.

clevite 77 bearings throughout

Speedpro .125" dome pistons 10.72@64cc pistons(hypereuntic with moly rings)

Stock rods, resized and cleaned up

Crane magnum cam 292* adv. duration, .501 lift (comes as kit with lifters

Aluminum roller rockers 1.6 ration 3/8 stud

crane blue racer pushrods 5/16"

heads will be 58 cc 305 heads with screw in studs, com cams double valve springs good to .560 lift

edelbrock torker 2 intake

edelbrock 1406 600 cfm carb

melling high volume oil pump

HEi distibuter vacuum advance, super coil and msd 6AL, 300+ accel wires

1 5/8 primary short headers, into a y, 3" pipe all the way to a 1 in 2 out flowmaster

all of this in front of a built up 700r4


Anyone have any input good or bad, going to try and build the motor between now and february, just trying to get upwards of 375 horses and over 325 on torque

Thanks guys

84z28350

Heads are going to have to be machined to take that much lift.

High volume pumps are not worth the loss of HP from driving them.

Last but not least the torker II manifold has gotten quite a few frowns from people here, i would suggest a RPM air gap.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

1st, what are you going to do with the car, daily driver? Weekend warrior? Pump gas? Race gas?

Now, assuming daily driver & pump gas:

Pistons - wrong for 58cc heads. With 64cc 305 heads, .026" in the hole (from being decked .012"), .020" compressed gasket, 12cc domed pistons I have 9.7:1 CR. Great for pump gas, even regular unleaded. You're headed in entirely the wrong direction with domed pistons & 58cc heads (although you need to have them cc'd before you chose pistons).

Clevite 77 - A lot of talk about quality control problems in the past few years since they moved production overseas (forced by EPA regulations combined with economic pressures). I've got them in the 396 built in 1997, but the 350 built in 2005 has Federal Mogul bearings. Others say there's nothing wrong with today's 77's, so you decide.

Torker II - Wrong, wrong, wrong! Get an RPM, either regular or Air Gap.

600 Performer - You can do worse, but not by much.

HV oil pump - Not needed. A good ol' standard M55 is fine.

Question: Why not build a computer-compatible set-up, which means a cam with 112-114 LSA and duration <230@.050", and keep your CC carb? You'll save a bunch of money, won't have to worry about torque converter lock-up for your TH700, and you'll have a very good set-up for street performance.

Big4x4Ride

i have the carb thats why i said that, the car will be mor eof a toy, weekend warrior, somethign I could take to the track and play with eventually, just want it to have some pep

Think I should drop down to flattops, or different heads. I currently have a set of 76cc 400 heads, but other than that I have nothing. I am open to even purchasing heads if needed

I would liek for it to be able to run on some 93 octane pump gas, maybe with some boost if necessary

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that is one VERY mismatched motor.

cam is WAY to big for those heads in stock form...even in full p/p form, it'd be too much.

the c/r with those heads and those pistons is going to be around 11.5:1...way too much for 93 octane. since this is just a toy, no need in running race gas just to play. look into a set of Speed Pro part number L2256 pistons. these are the flattop 4 valve relief pistons. 10.3:1 with 58cc heads. probably still too much with iron heads, but they have a VERY nice 9.7:1 c/r with 64cc heads. try to find a set of heads with some 64cc combustion chambers. i may have a set of 083 heads that i might be able to sell cheap...i'll have to check (note: 083 heads are stock 350 tpi heads w/ 64cc chambers)

the cam is still too big for the 083's even. look into something along the lines of the Comp XE274H or XE286H

either a Perfomer RPM, or my personal favorite: Holley Street Dominator intake manifold. the torker II is simply the worst designed intake known to man.

if you must do away with the cc carb, go with something along the lines of a 750 double pumper by holley...the EL-D-BROCK simply sucks for performance.

while i'm a firm believer in longtube headers and duals, shorties will work ok, but even longtubes with a custom y-pipe and 3" catback would be more beneficiary.

Big4x4Ride

hmm, so looks liek the only part I have right is the 350 part LoL

how about swapping to a crane energizer cam kit, 284* adv duration., .480" gross lift

also swap to just some silvolite hypereutectic pistons 10.3:1 at 64cc

and then run some 64cc heads on it, maybe I can get some with some 2.02 valves for better flow.

and just run a weiand x-celerator

I do have a holley 750 carb vac secondarys in excellent shape that I could run, but isnt that too much for a 350??

Not trying to build a 600 hp engine, but definatly want some pep on somewhat of a budget

ME Leigh

Do not run a single plane intake, they are horrible compared to todays modern dual planes (RPM or Airgap or the new Holley)

Big4x4Ride

what about a plain jane performer, or weiand stealth

ME Leigh

I'd run a stealth over a single plane anyday. I'd pass on a performer they are no better than the stock aluminum manifold.

Big4x4Ride

let me ask this, with a flattop piston and the 76cc heads, could I later do nitrous or forced induction of some sort
??

ME Leigh

You could but it would be best to build a motor to do one or the other interms of NA vs. forced induction. That combo would have 8-8.5:1 compression, not good for NA. Also for forced induction it is best to have a cam optimized for it.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

any reason you won't run forged pistons?

the l2256 speed pro/trw piston i listed above can be had for $275 through jegs and summit for all 8 and that's with a set of Chromoly piston rings.

the holley street dominator i listed is also in the $120 range, which is REALLY good and has a ridiculously large power band with it being advertized to make power between idle and 7200rpms.

Big4x4Ride

im open to all suggestions, ill end up runnign what I/we decide is best for my application

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Forget the 400 heads. They're terrible.

I guess we should ask which 305 heads these are. If 187/191 or some other swirlport, forget them as well. Most 416/081 305 heads are good, but benefit from 1.94" intake and maybe even 1.60" exhaust valves. That's getting into some expense, and if you have to do the machining for screw-in studs & valve guides, you could pick up a set of new World S/R Torquers and do a self-porting job on them and be better off.

You'd probaby be happy with that Crane cam or a Comp XE274.

Yes, at least you got the 350 part right. Don't feel bad, if it wasn't for this Board, I wouldn't be enjoying the combination I now have.

F-BIRD'88

Combining the small cc head with a domed piston is a mistake. Won;t work on pump gas. Cr is too high.

Use flat tops FM H345NP are cheap.
FULLY PORT the 305 heads and install 1.94 x1.60 valves. Deshroud a little around the valves. (416 or 081 castings are best.)
Use a Performer RPM manifold. Get a Lunati Voodoo cam #
60104.

Use a 4.10 rear gear and a 10" 3500stall converter.

I recomend a th350 trans. The overdrive on a th700 won't provide any more benefit on a motor like this. The th350 and 10" high stall converter will cost far less to build and last longer. ( more fun)

The carb is fine but will need to be jetted for max performance . Find a 750.

A MSD HEI coil is better than the Accel one. Combine it with the MSD HEI module and you have all the ignition power you'll need. ( for a lot less) More reliable too.

If you must use a MSD6 box get the remote coil cap and use a MSD blaster II coil. The MSD heli wire are better too.

With the Lunati cam you'll want to recurve the distributors advance curve for more initial at idle and less mechanical travel something like 22-24 inital and 34-36 total will work
So the mechanical travel will have to be limited form the typical 22-24deg down to 12.

Limit the vacuum advance travel to about 10-15deg at high vacuum. Usually its 20 or more degrees. Too much with the radical mechanical curve and high cr.

F-BIRD'88

Use long tube headers and this flowmaster Y250300 Y pipe to join the exhaust behind the trans.

Big4x4Ride

what about runnign a th400 tranny? I have a good th400 tranny here with about 4000 miles on a full rebuild

also i will post some updated engine info tomorrow morning

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The TH400 requires rear crossmember and driveshaft modification. Our sponsor, Spohn, above, can handle the parts required if you don't want to fabricate.

Big4x4Ride

here is what I have kin of drifted to. Nothing as wild as before.

stock bore 350 with speed-pro pistons 10.2:1 with 64cc heads

run the 58cc 305 heads, with some mild porting

gear drive timing, crane energizer cam 282H 282* duration, .470" gross lift

1.6 roller rockers, weiand stealth, or performer rpm intake, and then either the 600cfm edelbrock, or the 750 holley

this will still give me some decent power, and be somewhat affordable, and I can go wild and crazy later. I will run this in front of the th400

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

that is STILL gonna net you somewhere in the neighborhood of 11+:1 c/r!

H345NP Speed Pro pistons are 9.35:1 c/r with 64cc heads, that is roughly 10:1 with 58cc heads. this is what i'm running. this is what you ought to run!

these pistons can be had for around $100 with all 8 pistons, pins, AND rings! look on ebay! type in H345NP in the search bar!

cam is still too big, seriously, look at the XE274H, you'll have to have the guides milled down though.

do NOT run a gear drive. yeah, they're noisy, i guess that's cool, but it will transmit all your harmonics from the crank up to the cam, which will encourage premature wear and tear on the cam/lifters.

trust me, this is a much better matched combonation and you'll be much happier in the long run. with porting, a good tune, weight reduction, right gear/converter combo, you could have a solid mid 12 second car.

Big4x4Ride

nova, i purchases the 345-np pistons off ebay actually, $79 shipped. According to speedpro, they are 10.2:1 with 64cc heads 5/64 5/64 3/16 rings

just did some reading, the 345 np is 10.2, the h345np is 9.35. Guess I screwed up ordering the 345nps, i may just have to ditch the 58cc heads and run some 64's

Big4x4Ride

with the 58cc heads Ill end up at 10.9 with the pistons I have, isnt that pretty much borderline for pump gas. Wouldnt the 58cc's work, just be sure to do some porting on em and possibly bigger valves?? Thanks for the help guys


Hwat about a 274* Adv. duartion, and .450" gross lift with that combo?? The catalog says its good for 8.7-10:1.

In order to get to something recomended for 11:1 they says to go all the way tot he 282* .470"

Apeiron

Where did you find that? The only difference between them should be that the h345np is hypereutectic and the 345np is cast.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

your heads won't flow that much duration though without lots of work. and 10.9:1 is way too much for iron heads and pump gas. aluminum heads, a lopey cam, and fuel injection...eh, you might get it to live.

F-BIRD'88

There has been a recent revision on the specs of the H version of the 345 pistons. The piston pin height spec has beed changed from 1.54 ("destroked"( .045" down in the bore) to 1.56 {not "destroked"}(.025" down the bore at TDC).
This will change the compression ratio a bit but not much.
Measure your pistons pin height.

The listed compression ratio spec for each piston is a nominal spec. Your deck height will vary.

When you prep the 305 head with larger valves the chamber size will change. generally you end up around 61 to 65cc from 58 when all done. The cr will not be exessive unless your block has been decked a lot.
you need to include all the variables when calculating the true cr of your motor.

Don;t be shy on porting the 305 heads. they need more than "a little mild porting" There is no such thing a too much porting when it comes to the 305 head. Just don't bust thru the port walls. If you want the cam to make the power you want, make the heads flow. It's worth the time spent to do them right. The stock flow is modestto say the least . A "little porting" will get you modest improvment. A full porting with larger 1.94 x 1.60 valves will get you the performance you're after. the difference is just time spent.
The result is that your other mods actually make a differnce. A engine with poor head flow will not make good power reguardless of carb, cam etc etc.
Need to get in there and get busy on the heads.

Big4x4Ride

would i be better off with finding some 64cc heads?? any special ones to look for?

IF i di go to 1.94 on the 305 heads with some porting, will that cam work on my setup. I will use double springs and screw in studs for sure.

Other option is using the 76cc heads, and later being able to do a 50-75 shot of nitrous???

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i'll have a set of 083 casting (350 tpi) heads available in a couple of days if your intersted.

pm me if you are.

F-BIRD'88

Better off depends. The 305 heads can work for ya. So can another "64cc head" all will need porting to go fast(er) .But its up to you to bring it all together. What is the head casting of your 76cc heads? Some aren;t too bad (with mods) some are not worth it at all. the better ones (441 920 336 487 pre 1974) have about the same potential as 305 heads but have much larger chambers.

You will not need "double springs" for this one. Why complicate it. A single spring with damper like the Lunati #73943 or Crane 99846 is more than up to the task. Lighter too.
Reguardless you should be fine with up to 175hp Nitrous.
50-75 shot is wimpy you'll grow tired of that quickly.
150-175 gives you a good performance boost with good reliability.
if your plans are for nos go big on piston ring end gap and choose a dual patern cam with 110 to 114LSA. The Crane you are looking at has 106LSA.

Crane # 113821 or Lunati # 60103 are a good example of the same cam in a NOS friendlier version.

I like the new Lunati Voodoo grinds. worth consideration, But if Crane is your Brand of choice go for it. The new Z grinds are interesting.

you can save $$$ by drilling and pinning the stud bosses.

You should be able to bring this together with the NOS and get a 11 sec combo for reasonable $$$ Its all in the details.

Do you own the domed pistons now or just shopping? What are the head casting ###'s you have?

Big4x4Ride

First off guys I want to thank all of you for the help, this is my first venture into building my own engine and all of the info is great. Not many boards will help a beginner on this.

Here is what I have in my possesion at the moment.

2 bolt 350 block, stock bore, been dipped, cam bearings done, and honed(was a low mileage engine that spun a bearing).

345 NP Speedpro pistons (10.2 at 64cc) (new)

set of sealed power rings for the pistons (new)

600 cfm edelbrock, 750 holley vac secondary carbs (both used but rebuilt)

flowtech shorty headers (Brand new)

stock crank that I still need to machine, along with stock rods that need resizing (I am thinking of buying a differet set of rods instead of resizing these)

HEI Distributer (Brand New)

set of main bearings in .020 (federal mogul)

272/282 .442/.465 hydraulic cam, lifters and stock length pushrods

I have a set of 14014416 heads (58cc 1.84/1.5 valves)
333882 heads off a 350 76cc
3951598 400 heads 76cc.

Here is what I need to buy still:



Double roller timing chain
Single valve springs good for my cam
screw in studs for my heads
Intake (still deciding)
Rocker Arms
Ignition system

My buddy had the cam brand ned in the box, so I got it off of him. So I guess its now up to what heads to run, I posted what I have and have no prob tryign to find some better ones just need the input there

Big4x4Ride

edited post above with newly acquired parts

Big4x4Ride

Swapped my pistons out today fro the h345np, so I can now run my 58's and get 10:1 overall. SHould be set with that

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

you will be happy with that.

one thing though, that cam you have...it's kinda designed around building cylinder pressure...which will put it more prone to detonation then say something with a 224/234 duration pattern. summit has a cam that is 224/234 and .465/.488. i might sell the cam you hae and pick up that one i listed...it'd be still cheap and it would also help bleed off some of the cylinder pressure, since you'll be running 10:1 with iron heads....

F-BIRD'88

Measure the pin height on your 345np pistons.
should be 1.54" from the piston top.

Your cr probabily won;t be as high as your think.

usually those pistons are .045" down the bore at TDC.
I get 9.8:1 with a felpro .039" gasket. and stock bore. (58cc)
The cam will be fine. the Lunati springs are a good match.

Set the timing at 32-36* total 12 to 16 initial. Use cooler Champion RV8C plugs on the 305 heads.

If you plan on running NOS, set up the ring end gaps larger than normal like .026 top .024 sec. other than that These pistons will stand up to up to 250-300hp NOS.
Leanness, overadvanced timing and low octane fuel will kill any piston.

I recomend going with larger valves on the 305 heads this will enlargen the chamber a bit from 58cc when you clearance the chamber for the new valves. These heads really respond to head porting. well worth it.
*Note* the exhaust spring seat is machined deeper than the intake seat on those heads so when you replace the exhaust rotator type retainers with normal spring retainers on the exhaust side you must use a .105" valvespring seat shim stack (.060+.030+.015) to restore correct spring installed height. (1.70"-1.75")

I'd get a performer RPm intake. Any good high rise/ mid ise dual plane type intake is fine.
Avoid the torker II on this one.

F-BIRD'88

Note check the diameter of the torque converter on your TH400. If its 13" the stall speed will be very low. ( 1300rpm)
You can swap in a stock 12" GM converter from a th-350 and get 2200stall. This is the minimum for the cam u have.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

I always thought "there`s no such thing as too big of a cam just not enough motor"

Big4x4Ride

decided to go stick. I bought all of the parts to convert today, console, shift boot, pedals, slave, master, hose, driveshaft, crossmember, bellhousing, clutch and flywheel for $50 now I need to find a tranny

1983Fbody

I wouldn't use anything bigger than 600cfm for a 350. I decided to try a 750cfm on my 350, changed jetting on the 750 two stages lean and still the carb seemed to create a huge flat spot below 4,000rpms. I tried spring and rod changes both directions rich and lean and finally settled on two stages lean, that's where the engine seemed to like it the most, I just couldnt get rid of the flat spot. The 600cfm went back on and the flat spot was gone completely, I went through several jetting changes with the smaller carb as well, in the end it felt like the 750 might have had a slight advantage above 3500rpm the flat spot just wasn't worth it. That's all the proof I needed, there's cfm calculators out there that will validate my logic, I think you'll find most 350's don't require more than 500cfm. Unless searching for a couple extra horses on the dyno or racing every weekend the smaller carb is usually better.

-Ben

BadSS

Sorry you had troubles tuning the 750 - must have been a Carter / Edelbrock - if so,,, can't provide any help there. I've filed the tangs for Q-Jets (giving over 750 cfm) on the LG4 305 cars and have had no problems running 750 vac Holleys on mildly warmed over L69s. So,, there's no way I'd run anything less than a 750cfm on any "performance" vehicle,,, especially if you're running a non-notched dual plane intake.

Big4 - Heads are definitely going to make or break your power output. IF you're comfortable in porting the heads, the 305 heads can be good performers. You can add larger valves as mentions, deshroud them, and lay the chambers back a little to help flow and drop compression down a little. Even doing all the porting,,, you're still going to have a few hundred bucks wrapped up in the machine work. A set of Iron Eagles at $800 (minus what you would have spent on the large valve 305 heads) might not be that bad of an investment. It all depends on if you feel comfortable doing the grinding or not,,, and how valuable your time doing that is to you.

You can run a little over 10:1 with iron heads with premium gas as long as you chamfer the edges around the valve reliefs in the pistons and smooth (not polish) the top of the piston to insure NO rough spots or sharp edges. Same goes for the head chambers. You'll have to play around with the springs in the distributer to find the best combination of base and mechanical timing, but we were able to get a 11:1 406 with iron heads to do OK on premium by knocking a few degrees off optimal timing for the street. I've built plenty of 10:1 355s with iron heads and had 38 degrees in them on premium ---- but some of that depends on the engine combination and not a standard by any means. Still,, if you put the engine together (per cam card) and find that it is on the edge of running with premium, you can retard the cam a few degrees to help a little - which might not be a bad thing to do anyway if you go with the relatively small 305 heads, dual plane intake, and small header tubes.

nate85dogg04

Yeah I spun my set of clevites so I went out and bought hi performance I think iis what they are called.

WhiteLightnin83

BadSS you seem to have built a few high CR motors so I'm going to ask your opinion on this... I was told you can run .5:1 to 1:1 point higher on aluminum heads compared to iron. That being said, along with the fact that you made an iron head 11:1 work, wouldn't you think I'd be ok running 10.9:1 on some new aluminum heads? I have been getting mixed reviews from people when I ask if it'd be ok to run this combo and some are saying to just go with bigger chambers and run something more safe like 10:1 because they say it won't be much of a power loss but I'm assuming this will cost me like 10-15 hp to do this since my goals for my motor are around 500 hp. In all honesty I'd rather run the 10.9:1 since this will be mainly a weekend warrior and and I'll use a bottle of 110 octane boost per tank if I need to since it'll only use a tank every 2 or 3 weeks.... I'm pretty much just looking for another opinion...

Tobias05

Keep the CC setup, wish I did.

BadSS

I've run 11.25:1 on a 406 with G1 heads with a 218/228-110 cam and 34 degrees total timing on 92 octane. The problem with that combination was not all station's 92 octane gas would work. In fact there was only a couple Exxons and Chevrons in the tri-city area that I could run 34 degrees on (not all Exxons or Chevrons). Any other brands and other than those few stations,,, the engine pinged and ran like crap.

You have to knock the edges off the valve pockets and smooth the top of the piston and make sure the chamber is smooth to stand a chance at running that kind of compression with a relatively small duration cam. Flat top 406's don't typically need as much timing as a 355 and it's highly possible that you could run just as fast with lower compression and more timing as opposed to more compression and less timing. It will depend on the combination of parts and the chamber design to a degree. I think you would have a good shot at 10.9:1 with aluminum heads, if you buy gas at a "good" station. I certainly wouldn't blink twice about it,, in fact the 406 in the Monte specs out to be 10.89:1 and there are only a few station's gas that it has trouble with. Still,, there is no way for me to say you won't have trouble running that kind of compression. Just be sure to work the pistons and chambers a little.

WhiteLightnin83

BadSS could you do me a favor and check out my other post in this forum? Just so I'm not hi-jacking this thread. Possibley answer the question I have in there about buying the pre-ported heads... The topic to the thread is "Looking for advice/tips on my 383 rebuild!" If you could take a peak I'd appretiate it! Thanks.