Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Tech / General Engine
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?

Tech / General Engine Is your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!

Welcome to ThirdGen.org!
Welcome to ThirdGen.org.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join the ThirdGen.org community today!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-19-2008, 02:02 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Correct Pushrod Length Question

I need help with pushrod length advice.

Heres the deal. The cam is a hydro roller.

Comp cams says the cam needs .030 preload as ideal.

I am running stock hydo roller lifters. I bought an extra, took it apart, took a 9mm shell casing turned it down on a case lathe and inserted it into the body and reassembled without the spring. The shell casing (spacer was cut to length to allow the plunger to set .030 down from the snap ring which should be perfect per comp cams as for mocking up a lifter as running with "ideal preload".

Now the issue...

My installed height on the valves has some variance. I could not find my feeler gage but with a strait edge and eyball I guess the variance is about .040 with the exhaust valve being shorter. I will take better measurements tomorrow.

Is this enough variance to warrent two different length pushrods. To set the rub pattern perfectly on all valves would require 16 different length pushrods.

To determine proper length..
I have used an adjustable pushrod and a plastic "mock rocker arm" pushrod length checker.

The checker will measure that I have the correct length pushrod, on certain valves with a 7.192 OAL pushrod...

But the wear pattern (roller tip witness mark on sharpie painted valve tip) says they are too long. Does the wear pattern need to be dead nuts center?

Adjustable pushrod set to about 6.90 will yield good wear mark, but is determined to be too short per plastic checker.

How critical is this measurement. Camshaft is a COMP CAM XR294HR 242/248 @.050 and lift of .540 /.562.
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2008, 02:07 AM   #2
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

The location of the witness mark isn't as important as it's width. The correct pushrod length is the one that has the rocker tip moving back and forth across the valve stem as little as possible over the full motion of the cam. Pushrods are available in .100" increments, so don't get too hung up over trying to get an exact length smaller than that.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 12:57 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Thanks for the reply!

I checked again today with some week test springs vs the regular springs.

A length of 7.132 put the witness mark dead nuts center with only a thin rub line !

I also checked piston to calve clearance and the intake was tight at .072 exhaust was over .125.

Engine has hypo cast pistons. Will .072 be enough clearance? I will check again tomorrow.
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 01:01 AM   #4
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

You're a little uncomfortably short on clearance on the intake side. It should be at least .080", preferrably more.

What method are you using to measure the clearance?

Last edited by Apeiron; 01-20-2008 at 01:16 AM.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 02:37 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Method for measurement...

Hydo Lifter modified to be fixed.

Set to zero lash / zero preload

Lightweight test springs.

turn engine over by hand push rocker arm down with fingers until it hits piston

Inset feeler gages
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 02:55 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Sonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 10,760
Car: 1982 Trans-Am
Engine: 355 w/ ported 416s
Transmission: T10, hurst shifter
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, true-trac, 3.73

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

So you're measuring clearance only at one point of the rotation, TDC? Or at many points, and taking the smallest clearance?
I'd use the play-doh method. That ensures you've got the smallest clearance.
Sonix is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 06:28 PM   #7
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Just make sure you don't use real play-doh for the play-doh method, it's too elastic. Modelling clay is a better.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 07:13 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: stuart fl
Posts: 863
Car: 82 camaro
Engine: 434 ci
Transmission: t400
Axle/Gears: 9'' 4.10 gear

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

You are going to be fine get your self some modeling clay and double check you will see you have more clearnce than you think. I use to check pisyon to valve like that had one real tight tried the clay method and found I had pleanty of room you are basicly throwing the cam timing out using that method.
ross is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 07:57 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

I am checking it at many points turning by hand. .072 was the tightest. I am going to do again tonight with deree wheel attached
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2008, 08:42 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: stuart fl
Posts: 863
Car: 82 camaro
Engine: 434 ci
Transmission: t400
Axle/Gears: 9'' 4.10 gear

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Trust me use modeling clay.
ross is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 12:33 AM   #11
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDIF View Post
I am checking it at many points turning by hand. .072 was the tightest.
You're doing it with the timing chain on?
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 12:46 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Yes, The timing chain is on. I am checking it as if the engine would be running. How else can I do it. Is there another way?
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 12:49 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Ross,

Why will the clay method yield different results? I don't Understand the throwing the cam timing out statement.

I would rather not pull the heads off. If I do this will I have to replace the gaskets? The have not been run.
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 12:52 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Sonix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 10,760
Car: 1982 Trans-Am
Engine: 355 w/ ported 416s
Transmission: T10, hurst shifter
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt, true-trac, 3.73

Classifieds Rating: (1)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

You're measuring clearance in perfect world conditions. I'd want to know what'd happen if the timing chain snaps, or skips a tooth, etc. I'd want the piston at TDC, then push the valve down until it hits the piston, measure the distance, subtract valve lift, and that'd be my number.
Sonix is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 01:02 PM   #15
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

The method you're using now is fine. When is your clearance the lowest? What heads and pistons are you using? Has the engine been rebuilt?

Last edited by Apeiron; 01-21-2008 at 01:05 PM.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 01:20 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Engine is a brand new ZZ4 shortblock never in a car.

Heads are AFR 195 with 62cc chambers. These were on an expired engine and now have new valves and new valve job.
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 01:37 PM   #17
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

I'm surprised you don't have more clearance than that. What head gasket are you using?
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 05:53 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: stuart fl
Posts: 863
Car: 82 camaro
Engine: 434 ci
Transmission: t400
Axle/Gears: 9'' 4.10 gear

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

I got different results because the piston and valves all move together. I have used cams in the .650 to .680 range with out cuting pistons It does depend on your cam degine also I find the better pistons seem to have more clearance such as JE, SRP, Weiscos. And as for pulling the head if you dont have enough clerance you will have to pull the heads to have the pistons cut or change a cam to get the clerance you need.

Last edited by ross; 01-21-2008 at 05:56 PM.
ross is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 06:09 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,473
Car: 92 Camaro
Engine: HSR 385 Lloyd Elliot Cam AFR 195cc
Transmission: Performabuilt Level 2, 3400 stall
Axle/Gears: 10 bolt 373

Classifieds Rating: (11)
Send a message via Yahoo to 89formula350b2l
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDIF View Post
I need help with pushrod length advice.

Heres the deal. The cam is a hydro roller.

Comp cams says the cam needs .030 preload as ideal.

I am running stock hydo roller lifters. I bought an extra, took it apart, took a 9mm shell casing turned it down on a case lathe and inserted it into the body and reassembled without the spring. The shell casing (spacer was cut to length to allow the plunger to set .030 down from the snap ring which should be perfect per comp cams as for mocking up a lifter as running with "ideal preload".

Now the issue...

My installed height on the valves has some variance. I could not find my feeler gage but with a strait edge and eyball I guess the variance is about .040 with the exhaust valve being shorter. I will take better measurements tomorrow.

Is this enough variance to warrent two different length pushrods. To set the rub pattern perfectly on all valves would require 16 different length pushrods.

To determine proper length..
I have used an adjustable pushrod and a plastic "mock rocker arm" pushrod length checker.

The checker will measure that I have the correct length pushrod, on certain valves with a 7.192 OAL pushrod...

But the wear pattern (roller tip witness mark on sharpie painted valve tip) says they are too long. Does the wear pattern need to be dead nuts center?

Adjustable pushrod set to about 6.90 will yield good wear mark, but is determined to be too short per plastic checker.

How critical is this measurement. Camshaft is a COMP CAM XR294HR 242/248 @.050 and lift of .540 /.562.
pretty big cam for a 305 isnt it?
89formula350b2l is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 06:27 PM   #20
Moderator
 
Apeiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Rio Oro de Santa Ana, San Jose, Costa Rica
Posts: 19,819
Car: 1984 Z28 Hardtop / 1988 IROC T-top
Engine: 383 Carb / 305 TPI
Transmission: 4L60 / T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.54 Dana 44 / 3.08 10 bolt

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

A ZZ4 is a 350.
Apeiron is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2008, 06:52 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Head Gaskets are FelPro 1003s

Cam is properly degreed per cam card. I checked open and close at .006 tappet lift and confirmed 106 intake centerline with degree wheel and dial gage.

Last edited by SDIF; 01-21-2008 at 10:35 PM.
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2008, 11:32 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Aiken, SC
Posts: 542
Car: 91 Z/28, 89 RS Race Car
Engine: 305 stock / ZZ4 AFR 195 9.7:1
Transmission: T5 / t10 / Jerico
Axle/Gears: 10blt w 3.42, 9 in w /3.80 DL

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Guys, THANKS for all the great advice!

I used the clay method and ended up with plenty of clearance!

I gained about .100 on both valves.

I don't understand why the measurements came up so differently.

My next question is what do I do about reusing my Felpro 1003 gaskets. The engine was never fired. Am I ok to reuse?

Also what is the best way to clean off the thread sealer from the block threads and the bolts. It is still stickey.

THANKS A MILLION!!!
SDIF is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 03:46 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: stuart fl
Posts: 863
Car: 82 camaro
Engine: 434 ci
Transmission: t400
Axle/Gears: 9'' 4.10 gear

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Your not the first to do that as I stated before.Its all in the cam timing remember the cam moves at 1/2 the speed of the crank.
ross is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 07:06 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: stuart fl
Posts: 863
Car: 82 camaro
Engine: 434 ci
Transmission: t400
Axle/Gears: 9'' 4.10 gear

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

Get some copper coat spray the head gasket both sides. Run a tap into all the head bolt holes to clean them and wire whell the bolts. Put some fresh sealer on the bolts and bolt it together.
ross is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 08:38 PM   #25
Member
 
NAASBC355's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NW Houston
Posts: 181
Car: several
Engine: Lots of them
Transmission: also lots of them
Axle/Gears: lots of them

Classifieds Rating: (0)
Re: Correct Pushrod Length Question

realistically you need to shoot for .125" piston to valve clearance fyi.

~Couch
NAASBC355 is offline vBGarage Page   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2008, 08:38 PM
ThirdGen
1992 Camaro




Paid Advertisement


Reply

Go Back   Third Generation F-Body Message Boards > Tech Boards > Tech / General Engine

Tags
12, 28, 3400, 87, calgary, camaro, find, formula, length, push, pushrod, rod, stock, tap, tpi
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


1982 Camaro '82 || 1983 Camaro '83 || 1984 Camaro '84 || 1985 Camaro '85 || 1986 Camaro '86 || 1987 Camaro '87 || 1988 Camaro '88 || 1989 Camaro '89 || 1990 Camaro '90 || 1991 Camaro '91 || 1992 Camaro '92


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright © 1997 - 2012 ThirdGen.org. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the expressed, documented, and written consent of ThirdGen.org's Administrators.

Emails & Contact Details