astrosurfer

Hi
glad to be one of the third gen guys now.
I just bought me a trans am 84 model as another project car. 305 ci HO carb. vin "G" L69 supposedly.
Knowingly of the motor issue. Though not all of it.
Found out some more after the purchase.
found it on ebay and got it for a good price I thought at the time.
I'm hoping I don't need another motor. So I'm asking advice since I'm not too familiar with these big V8 motors.
I am from SCOTLAND UK and live in Louisiana now past 8 yrs.
Apparently the sellers friend attempted to adjust the engine???
Namely the lifters I believe.
So here is my big Q?
I read about the lifter adjustment with motor running...Isn't this messy? I mean won't the oil spurt out all over the place?
I was wondering if it can be done with motor off?
Also there is blue smoke and real rough running. Water pump is apparently shot. so I can only run for a few minutes before it gets tappy loud.
Planning to prob get a cheap pump this weekend just to get water flowing in order to diagnose better.
I am real good with motors and mechanics and have always looked after my own vehicles.
Apparently the carb has been rebuilt....there are some remains of a kit in a box I have and not sure if these parts are not used or should have been used or whatever.
The seller left me a can of starting fluid because he said that's the only way he could get it started.
Anyways after a few minutes with the car I could tell the distributor was set wrong...it felt like it was trying to fire against itself.
So after the first start with the ETHER, I undone the dist. bolt and moved it around til the motor seemed to settle down. Now it starts no problem with just fuel but running pretty rough and like I say a bit of blue smoke. Obv after a few mins the block gets real hot and the real pinging begins.
I could go On for a while but I'll hold out more Q's for another day.

Any help that I can get from you fellows will be very much appreciated.
I'm sure I need to do a compression test which I will try to do at the weekend via autozone loan a tool. I figure that will tell me if my rings are gone or whatever.

All suggestion and advice welcome..

THANKS
Scotty

I did have a post up looking for a motor...but want to be sure this one is shot up first before spending more cash than necessary.

Stekman

Welcome aboard.

Sounds to me like the previous owner got too involved with the engine, without knowing what they were doing, and decided they did too much with it.

Is the motor stock?

You're motor is most likely equipped with hydraulic lifters. Highly unlikely that the previous owner put a solid lifter cam in there, so let's assume hydraulic. But, since nothing can really be assumed, if you want to make sure, pop off a valve cover and push down on the pushrod side of a rocker arm. If it is able to be depressed, it's hydraulic.

The adjustment you heard was adjusting the valve lash. When the lash on hydraulic tappets (lifters) gets too loose, they tend to tick audibly. So the procedure described is to run the motor, back the rocker nut off until it ticks. Then tighten it until it stops, then turn the nut 1/4-1/2 rotation further to achieve "zero lash." Yes, it can be kind of messy with oil getting squirted around. Placing a few rags around (not in areas where moving parts are involved) keeps things a little cleaner.

Yes, valve lash can also be done with the motor off. There are a few ways it can be done with the engine off. Search for "setting valve lash" and you'll get a plethora of results.

Burning oil, could be several things. When does it smoke? Is it just on initial startup or does it pretty much smoke constantly? Depending on what it is, the running rough could be attributed to the burning of oil. Your pending compression test will help you here.

Is it the stock carb? Without knowing what left over parts you have for the carb, it's really hard to say whether or not they should be used.

The timing is probably off. When you set the timing, there is an ESC connector off the base of the distributor, this needs to be unplugged in order to correctly set the timing. That's the computers ignition control wire. Look back towards the trans tunnel to find it. Unplugging the connector gets the distributor to mechanical advance only (essentially a non-computer controled setup then). Otherwise the computer will send the advance through the roof and it will really run all weird. Could be the source of your pinging. Give it a try and see if your pinging doesn't go away.

My suggested order of importance is this: Change the water pump, set the timing the way I suggested, then do a compression test. Fire it up and then see how it runs, how many problems are eliminated and go from there.

Bring on the questions.

astrosurfer

thank you sir for a very informative reply...
smoke is pretty much constant but as I said I can't run it for long til I change that pump at the weekend.
It is a project and more than not a weekend job as I work full time and have no garage to work in. Dark at 5 ish and too late for anything.
One more thing...should I be able to see some timing marks from the top of the motor?
I'll try not to be too much of a PITA while I learn about my car.
I am a real enthusiast and have always wanted one of these cars.
I really want a white one but black will do for my first project.
That's about it for now.
I'm going out now to see if I can see some numbers on this motor...that way I can prob get more appropriate help.
But thanks again for now.

J91

If I were you I would surf the net and find a GM Manual for the car, they cover evrything. I bought one for my 87 IROC when I had it, on ebay. Although I have a 91 now w/ many mods I still find it very useful to get basic information out of.
Best of luck w/your new project.....

Stekman

Shop manuals are nice, yes, but I think over time, you will find that TGO can be equally as informative.

Your timing tab location should be at 12:00, attached to the front of the timing cover; straight down behind the water pump. You should see it when you do your water pump project.

I wouldn't be too concerned about being a PITA or anything like that. Kind of the reason forums like this are here.

J91

I'd still get a manual, unless everytime you have a question, you want to jump online and wait for a response. This site is excellent for support that's for sure. A shop manual will tell you in detail how to adjust your valve lash, timing, etc. I was a member on here years ago. There were times I needed info and would post a question and not get the answer I needed for a day or two? That's why I bought the manual. It's the best $75.00 I ever spent. Any ways lotsa luck. Stekman is right about the PITA thing, people on here will spend alot of time and effort helping each other out. It's a great site for support for us.

astrosurfer

thanks fellas
I do intend to get a manual and so forth.
budgeting is tight right now...hence the reason for a thorough diag of my motor before saving/borrowing for another motor.
have a compression tester to use at the weekend and will grab a pump tomorrow. Though I will prob be getting the cheapo for now. If all turns out well I will get the better quality to install. But for now I just need to get water flowing for decision making.
I have come to find that this board is full of helpful folks like yourselves.
The post count in all the forums speaks for itself.
I did join back in 08 as I was directed here from FTV6 for something or info I was looking for.
Found my info and that was that...I have returned several times reading.
Now I will be more frequent since I have purchased my 3rd gen.
It may sound weird but My trans am is almost my dream car...if only it was white..lol...but I will get there.
The intent is to get this one running sound and sell my 4th gen. As much as I love my firebird....I have always longed for a 3rd gen since I was a boy and saw KNIGHT RIDER.

peace out for now.

astrosurfer

well it looks like my worst case scenario is a reality.
Seems I have very little compression in all my cylinders.
Unless I am not using the compression tester correctly...but I'm screwing it in as tightly as I can for the angle I can get to it at.
I actually only did the cylinders on the DS...1,3,5,7 and the only one that really registered anything was 7 @ 30 psi. The others were about 10 psi.
As I'm turning the crank by hand and watching the valves compress it gets tight and I hear like an air rush from inside the engine which seems to emanate up through the oil holes and barely moves the tester gauge.
I'm sure the rings are shot.
But why would it start and run like this.?? I can run and rev the motor so I don't get it.
The plugs were pretty oily...I have an image which I will attach....this is exactly how they came out...I have not added nor cleaned anything on it.
Note how #7 has absolutely no electrode gap whatsoever...that for sure is a dead miss there.
The previous owner had to be retarded for sure to put this in a motor this way. Unless the piston has hit it or something...but I highly doubt it seeing as the piston doesn't come up that high.
But oh well...it looks like I need a motor...or a serious rebuild.
No point in buying that water pump yet..lol.
What might be my best option.
rebuild kit: $200+
block work: $225 local shop.
New crank and bearings:$300 or so.
Or just look for another motor?

suggestions welcome.

ThermalTrans

iTrader: (2)

Well for the best of my knowledge bud(Which is still limited cause I'm a newbie myself) but the cost of a rebuild depending on how intensive you want it to be might be just as expensive as getting a long block 350 and using your small block intake and carb on it till you can get better ones. I myself am swapping my 305 for a 350 carb out of an 80 truck. I am doing a rebuild but I only have to do a few things for sure, re-ring it replace the lifters etc. The basics in a rebuild, I want to have fun with mine and if you want more power it might work better to go for a 350 anyway. They bolt up to a stock transmission and they fit the mounts well. All opinion I guess. Good luck bud.

J91

Just get another engine, that would be the cheapest way out. If you are gonna do it, get a 350.

astrosurfer

good points.
I'd like to state that I'm not i it for the power at the moment.
That may come later in life...though there's not too much time yet there neither @ 40.
I just need to get my car mobile and get rid of my other at the moment.
Not a great rush on it but It's a me thing...I want...lol.
got a fairly local offer of a LO3 with some good stuff on it. sounds like that may be a winner for me right now. Think I'm gonna call the guy to get a price.
I wouldn't know what to offer on it....really am clueless on American motors and their value.

Thanks for all replies so far guys.

Brennan

use the starter turning it by hand isnt fast enough the 350 im builldng now would only give me 40-50 lbs by hand with the starter i got 155-163 or you could just do a leakdown

J91

That's a good point that I should of brought up. You need to build some kind of oil pressure in the motor to get a good compression reading. Good possibility the engine is still good? I should drink coffee and wake up before I post anything!

astrosurfer

Ok
I guess I'll try again with the starter.
I was told to do it by hand from one of my bosses who lent me the tester.
Results on this later.
Going out now to try this.
Kinda out there I know but....wish me luck someone...LOL

astrosurfer

As I stated earlier I retried the compression test with good results.
Attachment below....
These are the results from 4 complete revolutions/compressions on each cylinder.
Looks like 1 and 7 are a little borderline...could that just be head bolts needing tightened?
Many more questions I will have...just wait for it, it's coming so read on please....
I was almost sick when #8 gave zero compression 5 times...but on closer inspection...the inlet valve was too tight and not seating....glad I noticed that cause I was about to throw the towel in again on this motor..lol.
Undid the valve back to some slack and retested...with great results.
both rockers on #4 were very loose. Tightened them a bit til they just moved and no more.
With the valve covers off I reset the plug gap to .045 and re-installed in the motor.
Fired her up and instantly noticed a big change in her running as there was no misfire seemingly.
BIG improvement from before. It would seem I had 2 dead misses with #8 and #7. valve and plug gap respectively.
I am happy with the way things are progressing and It's all with a great big thanks to you very knowledgeable fellows here.

NOW...
with my covers off I seem to have no oil spluttering out...only smoke....and exhaust fumes still seem to be blue...how so if I seem to have no oil circulating to the top of the motor???
Hence it would now seem to me that I need a water pump AND an oil pump.
How hard is it to change the oil pump?? Can it be done without removing the motor?
I'm sure the still slightly poor running could be attributed to oil pressure perhaps...but I'm just guessing here.

As a little side note...I did manage to see what I think are the timing marks on the block...down through the back of the water pump. I know I still have to check that also. One thing at a time for me though, I'll do that on pump change.
You guys really know your stuff and I truly appreciate all the help so far. My progress has been more than I could have expected with the help.

1987ZTPI

That things all over the place, i would try re testing all cylinders. but add a few drops of oil in each cylinder. If the compression increases alot than theres somthing wrong. Also get a leak down tester that will tell you alot. If all of those tests say there is exsessive blow by or leaking seats. I would lookk into buying a new motor or spend the time rebuilding the current one. Anything under 110psi is bad.

astrosurfer

I'm getting conflicting info from different angles.
I was informed I needed to see at least 80 psi in each cylinder to be sure that there was sufficient compression. Turning by hand.
So I do it with the starter and I get compression.
Should I have done this with the valve covers on or off? Would there be a difference in results?
I forsee no oil pressure because I believe the pump to be bad since I have no splatter when she's fired up and running. I shut it down quick when I realized this.
Leak down means what?
The gauge held steady on all the cylinders. but I guess since it has a valve in it, it would do that...hmmm.
what about removing the little valve in the tester...wouldn't that in theory allow the gauge to drop pressure if there was a leak?
There could be gunk built up in the cylinders heads or anything like that and it would affect the results surely.
So am I to assume that these results are crap and I still need to get a motor?

J91

Don't get ahead of yourself, your running, good. You are probably getting oil up top if you have smoke, probably running down onto exhaust????
Check the oil, if it's black or dark brown, change it and the filter. If you have over 100,000mi. go to a thicker oil 10w40 should help things out. If your valves are out of adjustment you won't get proper compression readings.
I would adjust all the rockers this way with out the engine running.
1. Bring #1 cylinder to top dead center(zero on timing mark) pull plug and hand crank motor to this point, if you put comp. gauge in you should get a little compression or put your finger over the whole. The valves should be flat, up position not down. With engine in this position you can adjust the following valves.Exhaust-1,3,4,8 Intake 1,2,5,7
2.Back out adjusting nut until you get some play on the rocker (push rod should spin), turn nut back in til you have no play. Now turn nut in an additional 1to 1 and 1quarter turn.
3. Repeat this on all rockers listed above.
4. Hand crank engine over 360 degrees back to zero timing mark. Should be the #6 firing position, check as you did #1 above if you need too? or trust me!
5. Adjust the following remaining rockers. Ex-2,5,6,7 Int.-3,4,6,8
6. You just adjusted your valves! Put the valve covers on after you run it, hopefully your cam,lifter and pushrods are all ok!
7. Now see where you are at, if it runs bad do another compression check and take things from there.... Good luck.
----------

I would try this before I jumped to any conclusions about the motor. If they had one cyl. out of adjustment, they probably have more. If you have an oil pressure gauge in the car, check it when running, I really doubt your oil pump is bad.

astrosurfer

I should have been clearer about the oil smoke.
It is emanating from the holes around the valves. i.e. no splatter and just smoke coming up through the holes that go down into the block.
The rockers remain dry.
There is also oil all over the block itself and this is obviously making smoke too.
I know there is some sort of leak at the front since I can physically see it dripping onto the ground. Presumably the front main seal is leaking. Or the timing cover.
It really will need cleaning before I can tell for sure where it's coming from.
I will do those adjustments if I have time when I get home from work tomorrow.
I could get a leakdown tester but I have no compressor. Only my inflator...lol. I could rig something up at a push if need be.
My brother in law has a compressor I could borrow I suppose but it's too big to fit in my other car. Maybe he will bring it round if I ask nicely.
I'll hold onto the comp tester for a few days if need be. Or just get 1 from harbor freight. They are only $10 I find now that I look for 1.
Thanks J91 for all the help so far and everyone else for the input.
It is much appreciated indeed.

p.s. souldn't the adjustments be done with the engine warm?
I don't want to run it long for fear of no oil circulation.
I don't want to do any more harm than is already done.

J91

It doesn't have to be warmed up at all, this is straight from the GM manual and have set my 305, and 383 this way. That smoke coming from the holes is not a good sign! When you start it check the oil pressure gauge, don't know what shape things are in from here? Really wish I could see it in person, keep us posted will help if I can.....

astrosurfer

I will.
I really think it's not pumping oil.
I know I should have seen splattering.
I had rags all along the exhaust manifolds and nothing got a lick of oil.
could I take a quick vid and youtube it for you to see this...lol.
First thing I'm going to do is install an oil pump and a water pump.
I'm convinced that I can do this and the rest will fall into place. I have compression after all. Should get better if I can have oil pressure.
No oil circulating means also no oil in the lifters, correct.
I can't see me running it again until I do this. at least the oil pump.
Water could wait but not too long. Only for setting the valves.
Just don't have the luxury of a deep pocket at the moment til the taxes come in. Also I don't like to throw parts at things hoping...I like to thoroughly research problems first.
There's no way I would drive it either.
I'm crazy but not stupid.
Once again I thank you.
The smoking holes scared the turd out of me. So I shut it down quick.
oil pump and screen are fairly cheap so i'll plump for that and go from there.

Brennan

instead of getting an oil pump why not try a new pickup first? it could be clogged or something. but yeah the smoke from the holes is

naf

iTrader: (7)

Don't expect oil to splatter about with the valve covers off. It should come up through the push rods, onto the rocker and dribble down. It will at times leak off the head onto the exhaust before it can reach the drain back holes in the head.

I wouldn't jump into replacing the oil pump until you've checked the oil pressure with a reliable guage. AZ should have one to rent that you can connect to the sender behind the dist.

Compression test should be done with all the valve properly adjusted. I like to let it idle and turn them until they just stop clacking, then add 1/2 to 3/4 turn. You've already got the valve covers off.

Leaks at the front of the engine are typically caused by removal of the smog pump and failing to put a bolt back into the top most mount on the block (front-above fuel pump). A short bolt is required so as not to interfere with the fuel pump pushrod.

I will add that when lifters require adjustment it is NEVER a good sign.

astrosurfer

OK.
been trying to get the oil pan off.
PITA by the way.
It's got dark on me so I'll have to figure it tomorrow if I get home with daylight left.
I'm guessing I need to remove the starter?
I can move the front of it but not the back....Yes all the bolts are out but it seems to be hitting the starter motor...grrr.
It's all beat up to shat...and I mean shat.
Looks like someone run over something solid or something. I guestimate it's popped up about an inch or so. I reckon I could tap it back out. I am a metal man after all. Failing that I guess I'll have to just buy one, but as long as it's just 1 skin of metal...I've got that sucker marked.
I'll price 1 tho. Doubt it will be that much.
So til tomorrow I can do nothing but sit here and rack my brains about what to ask next...lol.
Have not set the lash yet but will as soon as I get the chance.
Might just go out with a light l8r and do that. If the wife say's it's OK of course.
OK
thanks all once again. I'll keep ya all posted.

I have an afterthought on this....Yes I know...I can't stop thinking about.

I am aware that the car was in a collision...discussed prior to sale and evident from the smashed DS fender.
Is it possible that whatever collision happened may have dislodged the oil pick up?
When I say the pan is smashed I really mean good and proper.

astrosurfer

The motor was tampered with by the previous owners friend who decided to play mechanic.
What is the smog pump?
I bought this as a project and a learning experience for me.
I am quite a good mechanic but this style of motor is new to me. All I know is european setups until now.
I find that alot of the sump/oil pan bolts are loose and 1 is missing and it's very oily down at that area. Nothing up top of the motor.
Thanks for the input.
It is most welcome, and very informative.

I'll add a little edit here with my email correspondence a couple of days after the purchase::

From: astrosurfer@bellsouth.net
To: *******@hotmail.com
Subject: Re:
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:18:15 -0600


I got it running today.
sadly it does need rebuilt as I think the bottom is gone.
it's loud and smokey. and oily drippy.
Looking into rebuild kit right now.
Did you ever actually hear it run for more than 5 minutes?...coz you'd have known it needed bottom end work with the noises coming from it and all.
It's a project though.
I'll send you some info when I get progress on it.
Need to make more money now to do the work.
The vin states that it should be the HO engine....Is it in fact the HO engine?
There are alot of kits to choose from.
I'd like to get the right one.

reply::
yeah loud is the lifters tappin... smokey is a mixture of i would guess valve seals and the oil dripping on the exhaust manifold from shooting upthe dipstick... yes i have heard it run for than 5 minutes as i have drivin it on several occasions before my friend decided to be a "mechanic" and adjust the lifters for me, and that right there was when problems started arising... i do not think the car is an ho but i could be mistaken, i would run the casting numbers on the heads and the block to be sure... you might be better off going out and finding a 305 or 350 that is already been rebuilt, every once in awhile you'll run across once for a few hundred dollars, if you would like ill keep an eye out for one for you... but if you need anything just shoot me an email, im usually pretty good at finding parts if you run across any that are difficult to find...

Justin


That's about all I've got to go by.
Except that conversations leading up to the actual sale were in the region of " it starts and runs but bogs down when you try to go in it".
So I decided it was a good project to get on with.

astrosurfer

Update on progress::

Today I finally managed to pull the oil pan off. Man that was that a major PITA. But learning as U go is always harder.
Broke an exhaust bolt/stud in half. Will have to extract that and replace.
See attachment 1 for how badly beat up the bottom of the pan is.
I'll beat it back out tomorrow.
Pick up strainer was a little indented. Not sure exactly how it should look really. Didn't get a pic of that yet. Removed the oil pump to test if it was pumping which it is. sadly I broke the little plastic sleeve which apparently holds the drive shaft in the right place into the pump itself. I'm wondering if that's replaceable or if I'm gonna need a new pump just to get the part? (edit: looked that part up and it's available as just the shaft with either nylon or steel guide)
I did find lots of little plastic pieces down in the pan and when I tipped the strainer over, a bunch more flowed out. Perhaps this may have been blocking the oil flow? This is not all of the plastic pieces. There were more in the pan before I hosed it out to rid it of the small amount of sludge
See attachment 2 for that pic please and if anyone can tell me what they might be from I'd be truly grateful. Prolly something else I have to relpace.
Have not got the first clue what could be broken that's made of plastic down there. Any ideas???
Seems like I will need to get motor mounts eventually too, as it makes a good clunk when going into gear about 1/2 sec after shifting. But I see no great rush on that at the moment.

Well enough for now.
Any help always appreciated fellas.

bradley23150

iTrader: (10)

Cant think of ANYTHING plastic on the engines internals. All but the sleeve that covers the O/P Rod. Idk though.

astrosurfer

well that came out in 1 peice.
I accidentally dropped it on the ground and it snapped. No biggie tho since it's only 8 bucks for a shaft with sleeve.
I'll have to wait for it tho since it's special order @ autozone.
Gonna look at oreilly website too tho.
There's a possibility it came from atop the motor too is there not?
Intake is fairly new and could have been dropped in at that point.
I'm guessing tho.
So many small pieces that I can't even piece together to a logical shape.
Thanks for thinking on it tho bud.

Stekman

While I read, I would just like to say "nice bottle."

With the pan knocked in like that, it's very possible that the lack of oil pressure was caused by the bottom of the pan being smooshed to the pickup, impeding oil flow.

I can't think of anything plastic for internals, either. Inside the engine isn't really the place for plastic.

A smog pump is the pump used to put fresh air into the exhaust manifolds to help reduce emissions. Very common for people to remove this, and as stated, a bolt needs to be placed in the upper mounting location, otherwise exposed crankcase.

naf

iTrader: (7)

You've got it off. Pull the caps and check. Post some photos if you're not sure.

liamthered

OEM Timing gears during that era were many times plastic coated; Metal core with a plastic "casted" onto it for the gear teeth. Supposedly to make it quieter.

astrosurfer

It was a nice bottle.....thanks to the wife.
It is actually brewed very close to my home town in SCOTLAND. called KILMARNOCK, I am from IRVINE, AYRSHIRE.
A very good friend of mines gave me one every xmas. I'll only touch black label or blue. Red is for the die hard cheap drunks...too rough on the throat. Thanks for noticing...lol...I made a point of catching a lil' of it in there to get the drooling going...LOL.

Plastic and engines don't mix I know. I was a little freaked out at first coz I thought it was metal and was SO relieved to find it was indeed plastic pieces. I'm bewildered but obviously alarmed by it.

I need some clarification as to the location of this component or lack of.
Like I state...very new to these motors. I know my way around engines but noob to american muscle.
Thanks for info.
----------
Forgive me for not understanding what you mean here.



liamthered

Now should I be worried about timing gears???

Stekman

Walker Black is some good stuff. Have a bottle on my own shelf.

The smog pump bolt in reference is shown in the picture:

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_i...0081_large.jpg

You will see, to the immediate left of the damper and timing, there are 2 bolts. The top bolt is the one required plugging. However, this will just cause dripping, no smoke or anything like that.

And now that it's mentioned, I do recall those stupid nylon-coated timing sets. Dumbest idea ever. MIGHT be worthwhile, since you've got stuff taken off already, just pop off the timing cover and take a peek. Just a thought, though. Real hard to determine any form of shape from the picture.

liamthered

Hard to say from the pictures what the plastic is for sure. One of the larger pieces looks like it was a piece of gasket material when I zoom up the picture.
If it was the timing gear you would have a definite problem timing, or even running the engine. With that amount of plastic in the pan the gear would have to be pretty much disintegrated.

I think what NAF was referring to were the bearing caps. Since you have the pan off, they're right there and it might be a good idea to check them for damage and clearance while you're there. If the rest of the engine was good, I'd roll in new bearings while it was easy. You may want to wait to see what condition the rest of the engine is in though before spending the money.

astrosurfer

You know I was thinking there was some sort of cog like shape on a couple of pieces.
and some roundness to them too.
I'll do that.
Do I need to remove the damper to access the timing area?
Now I'm thinking I got a timing issue too.
Worrying myself now.
So what if these plastic timing gears are broken off? What does this affect?.Do they need to be replaced or are they just some sort of silencer?

The BOLT...is it the top one of the 2 in the image? below the water pump location?

liamthered

"You know I was thinking there was some sort of cog like shape on a couple of pieces.
and some roundness to them too.
I'll do that.
Do I need to remove the damper to access the timing area?"


Yep, and the water pump.



"Now I'm thinking I got a timing issue too.
Worrying myself now.
So what if these plastic timing gears are broken off? What does this affect?.Do they need to be replaced or are they just some sort of silencer?"


It's the crankshaft gear that drives the chain to turn the cam gear. If teeth are missing, your timing will not set properly (it will jump around a bit) and your timing chain will be loose. Yes. If it's damaged it will need to be replaced. They come in sets: both gears and the chain. Any auto parts store will have them. It's not too difficult. just make sure to line them up properly when putting them on.

Stekman

The damper needs to come off in order to remove the timing cover. Autozone rents out the puller tools for this. You'll need one. Take off the crank pulley first, held to the damper by 3 bolts. Once that's off, then you can remove the damper. After the damper is off, just unbolt the timing cover, and slide off.

If there's any sheared teeth, you will need a new timing set. The teeth are what engage the timing chain, obviously missing teeth is bad. And yes, the factory used the nylon setup just to make it quiet.

Correct on the bolt location.

astrosurfer

It's definitely all plastic and not gasket. That's not even half of it. the rest I dumped into the drain pan or washed out with the hose before I took pix of the state of the smashed pan.

Strangely enough I have no problem with actually running the engine. Is it possible that someone has redone the timing gears and just didn't get all the old stuff out?
As far as timing. I'm not sure as of yet until I iron out these priority issues with oil flow and water.
I'll be beating out that pan in the morning and hopefully reinstalling my oil pump too.

This site rocks for helpful folks.
Many other sites would help a little and then insist on you getting a manual.
Well things is tight til tax time so I appreciate all the insight from you guys.

WOW...with this amount of replies tonight...I think I came in at the right time.

liamthered

It is VERY common for "backyard" mechanics (and even some pros) to not remove the pan and clean out those broken pieces after replacing the timing gears. Based on the fact that it starts and runs it is reasonable to assume this is what may have happened.
You can actually touch the chain and crank gear while the oil pan is off. At the front of the engine, the oil pan and timing cover meet up and leave a small gap. If you're flexible, you can reach a finger in through that gap and "jiggle" the gear and chain to see if there is slack. Sometimes it's hard to tell, but if it were that disintegrated, you probably could at least see if its really bad.

I always recommend to have a manual for any car you will be working on very much, but that doesn't mean I won't help anyway. Sometimes I need help, too.

astrosurfer

OK
been looking at the pics of the gears etc on parts store website, and studying my little bits again.
definitely the timing sprocket...not a doubt in my mind now.
I'll try that little hole tomorrow as I'll be out there with all my spare time...U can bet the last $ on that.
can the gear be seen through this hole or not?
I don't mean to take up anyone's time on this. I am truly stunned by all the help already.

BIG thanks.

liamthered

If you're VERY flexible, have a good flashlight and an inspection mirror (small mirror on a flexible stalk), you might see the chain where it passes over the crankshaft gear. You won't be able to see the crank gear, let alone the cam gear, which is the most likely culprit.

All you will get from this experiment is to feel if there is gross play in the chain. check on either side of the gear as the slack will usually be on one side or the other, not both.

I'll check back in tomorrow, off to bed now.

Good luck

Stekman

I would just pull the timing cover. It really would be the only way to determine what's under there.

Edit: picture time.



You can see from the picture, the big gear is what the issue is. The little gear is all you could possibly get at, if you're lucky. Again, just pull the cover. Stare at it.

Beltfed

I would replace the gears and chain anyways. Here's a couple of reasons.

1.-You're talking about needing to replace the water pump. You've got to take the pump off anyways to change the timing chain

2.-When you take the timing cover off, you need to drop the front of the oil pan down to get the cover off. Your oil pan is already off so you're ahead of the game.

3.-It's cheap insurance and you know exactly what is in there now instead of having to tear it down again later.

Also, I was thinking that if the lifters are dry or not properly adjusted they wont be pushing oil right? So maybe that's why you're not getting any oil up to the rockers?

J91

Man you guys are a helpful bunch. I am in agreement w/ just about all I've read.Oil pressure/smashed pan, could be a major problem. Replace the timing gears and chain w/ steel set. While you've got itall torn down, at least check the maincaps and bearings and replace them. Once all of that is finished adjust the lifters....

naf

iTrader: (7)

Before going any further pop off the caps and post photos of the bearings and crank surface. Pull one at a time so you don't get them mixed up. Got the engine out of the car or doing this from underneath?

astrosurfer

ok
Todays update.
Before I get into that I'll state that I didn't have time to whip off the caps with the honey do list and all.
I understand the importance of this and will get round to it when more time can be allocated to the car.
Also I didn't get round to checking the timing gears either. There's a cash issue right now for what I'm actually able to plough into parts and tool rental. I am hoping I can catch up with a contractor who owes me for a job tomorrow, then I can get a water pump and puller tool. I'd prolly be wise to go get the tool first then return it and purchase the pump then. Autozone is but 2 miles from my house so no biggy there. If timing gears are required I should be able to do that too. My tax return fixes the cash issue completely but til then....I'm the only earner in my family of 3.
Understand I'm doing all my free stuff right now until that time. i.e. diagnostics and such. I also don't want to leave the motor open to the elements while I cannot work on her. Protecting my investment so to speak. I'm crazy not stupid. Now that I can remove the pan easily enough I can look at all that stuff later underneath. If only I had gotten the insight to put the motor to BDC while removing the pan I wouldn't have busted my finger trying to remove it. Reinstalling it clarified to me that it's alot easier at BDC.

On to todays results.
Thoroughly cleaned the oil pump, replaced the shaft retainer that I broke yesterday ($2.16 @ AZ), the strainer was almost blocked with these little plastic pieces. I managed to remove it all and was surprised to have 2wice as much now. That sucker is so clean now and I tested it for function, superb. Replaced the oil filter and re-installed the pan. I know I need to check the crank but time was an issue today, I did try yo wiggle the rods and merely got some side to side motion, nothing to write home about, but I WILL do it.
Re-installed the starter and engine mount bolts. The exhaust flange bolt that broke on me broke even more upon attempted removal so I drilled it out but was unsuccesful to remove the remaining part of the stud. That hole is now bigger and will need attention. I didn't want to start her at the time without an exhaust coz my landlord is an oversized ***** and I don't need any hassle about this project.
Finally I was able to re-attach the exhaust and I removed the dissy cap in an attempt to circulate oil by the starter. That didn't pan out too good. So I had to get her fired up to check for oil flow. I was a little disappointed to see no oil emanating from my pushrods still. However after a few minutes of running.......voila, I got oil at the top of my motor for the first time. That lovely flow of thick messy stuff got my wee heart a pumpin'. It still came up black tho even though it is brand new oil. Possible flush?
I now have no blue smoke coming out the rear, which was a very nice surprise I can tell ya.The motor settled down nicely with about 70+ oil pressure. Then it was time to shut her down due to the zero water flow.
She still sounds like she got a slight miss or hinder going on, but until I lash the valves correctly I have no idea. But all in all she's much quieter and smoother running.
To answer the Q about doing this from underneath....that'd be YES. I'm not pulling a motor unless It's really needing serious work. I can't be bothered renting a lift and stuff to do stuff I can do from the ground.
Did not take any pics today...just didn't have time. The caps and stuff were showing some whiting just from it being open overnight, it's a wet atmosphere in LA and prob the moisture did it. It was not like that when I came in last night.
Anyways enough blabbering.
I'm really enjoying my progress and still give a big thanks to all who have helped and given insight.

J91

Glad to hear it's coming together 4 you. $$$ always an issue. If the things running and not making noise, your bottom end is probably OK. I have to hand it to you, taking it all on w/out much experience on these type engines. Get the timing chain, water pump and valves lashed and you'll probably be good to go. Keep us updated and good luck....

astrosurfer

Thanks.
I'm not afraid to take anything apart on a motor. I know exactly what's in it sort of, however parts vary from engine to engine.
I've been working on my own cars for a good 22 yrs...lol.
I've never ever had to take 1 to a mechanic. Except when the cat went out on my malibu at 40k. Was still under warranty (car was) and apparently the cat is an 85k warranty. That was fixed free of charge. So I had them replace the fuel pump at the same time since it was having a problem with the check valve.

So my Intentions are this...in the order listed.

Rent damper puller...return it
Water pump
Timing setup. How much diff in price for metal?...I'll check that. $$$ is the main issue.
Stabilizer bushings...(full setup)
I can see only metal bolt, sleeve and nut. there is no rubber remaining whatsoever top or bottom. Also do the main ones that hold it to the frame.
Motor mounts
I have a serious clunk when going into gear. I am gonna ask Q's about that too. I think the tranny is too full of fluid. It's way above full when cold and sitting for days. I noticed that yesterday.
I have a filter and gasket that came in the back seat. Please don't anyone say "rebuild it". I'll state now that I have never been in a tranny and the smell of the fluid gives me a severe headache, every time.

That's my list for now.

Anyways thanks again to all for the help.
I don't expect to get anything done this week til the weekend arrives and hopefully I'll be fixed up with some monies to do the pump and gears.
One may have a job but not any money..LOL.

Sometimes life just sucks.

ASTRO

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Way above full when sitting is normal. It is supposed to be checked when idling in park or neutral.

Is it clunk like something hitting the floor, or just a good jerk? The later transmissions were modified to soften up the jerk, unfortunately you can't add that to the earlier transmissions. If it is a solid clunk like something is hitting the floor from underneath, you need a new transmission mount.

astrosurfer

I get you.
The motor mounts are definitely shot. I can move the rubber with my fingers...LOL.
The car needs work in a few areas.
I fixed my trunk alignment problem. Seems that the rear part had been messed with and not sealed back in the right spot. Trunk would close poorly and stuck out about 3/4 inch. So I got to removing it and cleaned all the sealant from it. Applied new sealant and set it back in place. Properly. Now it is aligned perfect. Closes perfectly too although the strut shock thingy's need replaced.
Time and money now.
The clunk seems like something is hitting the floor as you described. It's hard to describe. Just very noticeable because it's loud. But once in gear it seems to drive fine when I had to move it around the yard onto my gravel driveway.
I probably do need a new transmission mount.
All the rubber under the car seems to be in need of repair.
But hey...I got a running motor, New brakes, Brand new tires.
It's looking like I'm gonna need to spend a minimum amount to get a good car from this little project.