KNIGHTE

hey Guys,

Out driving today, it's very hot but it's not overheating.

When I stopped the car after a 35 mile run, to get gas, it wouldn't crank.l (it was as if the battery was dead). I tried it a couple of times it was just really slow to turn. On the fifth time it started at the gas station.

Then I drove down to the beach, I stalled at a set of lights. It started immediately on crank.

When I got to the beach (another 2 miles) i left it for an hour. When we forum it would not turn at all on first try. Then 2nd try a little. Then 3rd try started up slowly turning.

Again, still learning about cars - not sure what it might be. Battery is brand new.

I'm in long beach right now, it's like 95.

gm muscle

It sounds as though there are at least couple of problems. Do you have headers? Or no heat shield on your starter? After you've been driving a while, the car generates a lot of heat. That heat then affects your starter motor...its called "heat soak".




I know what you mean about the heat; it's 101* today!

KNIGHTE

Hey dude thanks! I'm honestly not sure if I have a heat shield on it - I don't even know where it is lol. I'll try find out. There are pics in my link on the left hand side not sure which part it is.

gm muscle

The starter is going to be on the passenger side, right where the engine and transmission meet. You'll have to raise the car a bit to get underneath to see. The shielding is usually clamped on the starter solenoid, protecting it from the heat of the exhaust manifold or header....depending on what you have. I saw your pictures but I didn't see any of the engine. Also, your starter may be giving out or may have other electrical issues.

KNIGHTE

Damn - been sitting for an hour. Now it won't crank at all. Just a tick.

mk1431

have you checked you alt output

8t2 z-chev

probably a bad starter motor is the problem-could replace it or take it apart and see if new brushes or other easy repair can be done.

KNIGHTE

This was the first drive I took since it was shipped from Washington. Maybe it got toasted in the heat? How do I check alt output?

8t2 z-chev

as long as the alternator can maintain at least 13.5v with headlights and heater blower on,alt is probably ok.

gm muscle

Did you get your car started?


If not, make sure your battery cables are not loose at the battery or starter. My truck didn't want to start about a week ago after fueling up. I popped the hood and checked the cables and sure enough, the positive cable was loose. I tightened it down and everything worked great again....just a possibility.


As mentioned before, if your starter is worn, sometimes a brush might not make contact with the armature and therefore not start. I've gotten lucky by taking a hammer and smacking the starter. Just not too hard! Lol! You wanna make sure you hit the starter and not the solenoid.

KNIGHTE

I'm out with the other car so have tried again yet. The battery is good. Radio works, windows up and down. I think it's fine. Starter motor must have seized after the long drive :-/

KNIGHTE

Also - I'm definitely going to hit it with a hammer.

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Man, you are having all kinds of BS probs aint you.

What yours is doing could be from a few diff things and all are pretty common.

Heat soak is the #1 thing. Use a heat shield or even the starter wraps to keep the heat off of the starter. As electronic items heat up, resistance increase. Resistance (ohms) in simply terms are the flow of elec. through an item/wire, etc.

Battery cables or starter wires could be breaking down

Battery cables or starter wiring, or ground cables/straps could be loose, poor connection, etc. You can never have too many ground wires/straps. I run mine so battery cable goes from - on battery to front bottom of engine block, and from battery to fender. Then a 6ga wire from K member to engine block, ground straps from back of heads to firewall

Starter could just be weak or old and ready to give up the ghost.

Timing could be set too high or too low (advanced or retarded) that will cause the starter to drag like that.

KNIGHTE

So got back from dinner. Cars been sitting another 3 hours. Get in. It's the same deal as when I left. No turn over at all.

So I go

Turn ignition. One Click
Turn. Ignition. One Click
Turn ignition. One engine turn.
Turn ignition. One click
Turn ignition. One engine turn.

I let the car roll back 2 feet

Turn ignition. Click.
Turn ignition 3 times quickly. One engine turn.
Turn ignition. One engine turn, two engine turn. Starts.

Wtf?

novaderrik

check all cable connections and the condition of the battery cables at both ends.

if all that checks out, pull the starter out and see what it looks like inside. might just have worn brushes or something stupid like that.. i used to also fix problems like yours by pulling the end cap off the solenoid and turning the copper disc that's in there to a fresh area since it cost nothing but a little time and a $15 solenoid was expensive as hell when i only made $4.50 an hour...

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

Ok, after 3 hours we can kind of rule out heat soak..

My money is now on dead/bad battery or loose/bad connections, or bad starter solenoid

Do you have a volt/ohm meter? If not pick up a cheap harbor freight $5 or less digital volt ohm meter.. Check your battery voltage

Remove the battery cables from battery and clean the cable ends and battery posts... Any corrosion will hurt your connection. Use a brass wire brush to clean them real good and get them shiny.

Also check the connections of the cables at the frame/engine and starter. Make sure wires are tight, and dont wiggle.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

"This was the first drive I took since it was shipped from Washington."

Agree with Night rider327. The car was in Washington....damp, humidity,= corrosion. Check all the grounds and connections.......then starter replacement. IMHO.
Good luck

KNIGHTE

Battery is literally brand new and reading between 12-13.5 volts.

This is my theory...

* Drive car for 1 hour in 95 degree heat
* Stop car at gas station, car won't start, takes 5 tries
* Ipso-facto, heat soak. Car continues to be hard to start around town.
* Drive car home, 1 hour in 85 degree heat
* Bring car home, leave for 3 hours
* Car TOTALLY won't start, but not heat soak this time or battery...

I'm thinking that the cool down leaves/left the starter in a weird spot in its cycle and i needed to move it past that? Hence the tons of times i had to turn it to start it, but then it started right up, which confirms the battery being ok.

I'll likely get a new starter, but would love to know whats actually going on inside there :-)

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

When you replace the starter, don't get a stock replacement. They are junk and are extremely prone to heat soak, heat shielding or no heat shielding. Get the starter designated for a 1996 Corvette.

KNIGHTE

Thanks for the tip. It started first crank very strong this morning.
So I'm not sure whether I should try heat shield or not. It sounds like I should junk it or just take it out and keep it as a spare.

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

I went through the exercise of adding heat shielding; completely futile.
I wouldn't even keep the old one as a spare; it's not worth installing.

DaveBerlinetta

I would pull the starter and blow out the accumulated brush material between the commutators (the copper plates that the brushes come in contact with). When the material builds up, power is sent to more than one rotor winding preventing correct operation. You might have to scrape it out of the groove; but very careful not to scratch the copper plates. It's a free fix! Just costs a little time. When you put it back together, there should be small holes next to the brush cups that you can stick a paperclip thru to hold the brushes back during reassembly. Good luck!

DaveBerlinetta

PS.... if the commutators are very dirty, use a soft pink eraser to clean them. DO NOT scrape them, they are very soft and damage easily.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Hi, I'm not a mechanic but I think I can help you here. Some of what you are posting is confusing and I think that you would be better off by doing things in a certain order as well. If you don't, then it's possible to create situations that cause other problems on top of it. And that will run you in circles while wearing out your new battery which will compound things further. First I'm going to reply to a few things so that we are on the same page. I'm going to try this as a one shot deal because I may not be back until later today.
If it were just a dead spot then it would not turn slow. However, if you try to start the car with a low battery and/or poor connections you can create a dead spot by pulling current through it with just enough current not to turn it over while at the same time heating up the windings until they are no longer any good. This is also taxing on your battery lowering its lifespan as it overheats internally too which takes life out of it.
Other than it being new, none of this tells me that the battery is good. It possible to have a battery that reads a full charge, however when a large load is placed on it the voltage can drop severely (Ie. Around 9v) and then return to normal voltage levels. Another way of putting it is that a battery has low cranking amps, or low capacity. You have no way of knowing this without a meter. The clicking is your only way of knowing the voltage has dropped because it is common for the starter solenoid to do this as there is just enough current to move it which is the clicking that you hear. So even if you do have a new battery, if it clicks or turns slow then it needs to be charged before trying to start it again.
I would stop doing this. As mentioned earlier, it is bad for your starting system imo.

Get a multi-meter if you don't already have one. If you're unfamiliar with these then get an auto-ranging meter. You may be able to rent one from an auto parts store or borrow from a friend.
Better yet make up an extra set of leads that you can plug into your cigarette lighter so you can see the voltage while you're driving around. Some alternators output changes as they begin to fail. You can also check it while you turn different accessories on/of etc. An example might be a normal charge voltage until you turn the AC or headlights on, then suddenly it's running off of the battery. Now when you return, the starter turns over slowly or you hear the solenoid clicking.

Now that you have a meter, check the voltage while you're turning over the engine. If the voltage drops to around 9v at the battery then the battery does not have enough capacity (or you may have a short which is less common). As the car is running (now alternator/regulator voltage output) it should be around 14-14.5 (IIRC) but no higher than 15v. You don't want it over OR undercharging because either can damage the battery. If it's less than say 13.5v then the battery may not be charging which could cause the starter issues that you see. If it is overcharging it would be burning out the battery and boiling out the water. Without a meter you are blind to this and not able to “see” what's really going on.

Unbolt the battery and check the condition of the connections for both pos and neg terminals and cables. Leave this unhooked and get the car lifted properly (A lift or 4 jackstands level surface etc.) so you can disconnect the battery leads at the starter. Check for corrosion and if the terminals were tight. At this point you have two options, either set the car back down and try starting it, or consider replacing the starter. You can also test, or have the starter (and solenoid) tested outside of the car as well. A dead spot may not show up during a test like this though. For replacing, I prefer to find a local starter/alt rebuild shop where you talk to the person rebuilding it and stands behind their work. If not, then what was recommended is a good option too.

If you're not familiar with lifting the car and/or the electrical I would find someone that is, so they can show you how to do it safely. You may be able to see the starter from the engine bay depending on the exhaust and other factors. I can see one from the engine bay, the other I can't. You can visually follow the positive cable down to it but don't ever touch the leads (unless you disconnect the battery) as that is live 12v with a high current capacity. If that is beyond what you're comfortable with, a meter can still tell you a lot about whats going on and should pay for itself vs. replacing parts and continuing trying to start it with low voltage and/or high resistance/load etc. Checking for corrosion can also be done without the equipment. Don't make the mistake of over tightening too as you can break the internal connection inside of the battery.

So the short of it is while running you should see non-varying ~14.5v, starting it shouldn't drop below say 11v. Recheck your connections and have the starter tested and/or replaced, especially if you know there is a dead spot.
Hope that helps, gotta run.

gm muscle

Interesting! Would you get one from Autozone and such or would you spend more and get an AC Delco?

ronchic

swap out battery with friends car , see if that changes things ! go to a auto parts store and ask them to load test the battery ! if your going through all the trouble to check and clean the starter you might as well just get a new one. save time and the effort ! just some suggestions , good luck ron

86LG4Bird

iTrader: (1)

You can't beat the AutoZone-type parts stores for parts like these. They're typically rebuilt in a domestic shop, unlike the junk offshore electronic parts that are failure-prone.
Much cheaper than AC Delco and just as durable. Typically have a lifetime guarantee, but I've never had to replace one yet.

gm muscle

I've had much better luck with Delco than Autozone but like mentioned before, Delco is more expensive.

cardo0

KNIGHTE it reads like the solenoid contactor disk (inside the solenoid cover) is all eroded from the arcing over years of service. Before u spend a dime i would recommend just pulling the starter solenoid cover and looking at the contactor disk - u may have to pull the whole starter for this, maybe not. I learned to just flip this disk over and use the other side which should be like new (unless its been flipped before). Heck, once on a friends Pontiac i was just able to access 1 screw of the housing but opened it enough to spray some contact cleaner inside and got it to work (dont know how long it lasted though).
If your interested in learning your cars mechanics this is as good a place as any. If u pull the start make sure u replace any shim in the same place they came out. U also need to mark the starter wires before u remove them to replace them correctly again. Once open u will see the contactor disk and how the solenoid pulls the other contact into it to make the electrical flow path - FYI the other end of solenoid throws out the pinion gear by a lever.

So i looked at your undercarriage photos and didnt see any headers. BTW heat shields do work and if your car came with one u should install one. Heat shields reflect radiant heat from the exh pipes and that heat gets "soaked" into the starter coils - motor and solenoid. Look this heat shield up if u dont have one by assembly manuals or whatever u find, it will be good practice keeping your car road-able with correct parts. Heat wraps only work for short periods until the starter becomes soaked with convected and conducted heat then they hold the heat in.

Hope this can help.

cardo0

Forgot to mention u can buy solenoid rebuild kits. Pocket change and much cheaper than a starter.

Let us know what u find.

KNIGHTE

HI Guys,

Thanks for all of the responses, i don't have tons of time to work on the car lately and i want to be able to drive it semi-long distances without it choking, so i went ahead and bought a new starter from O'Reillys. It has a lifetime warranty.

My battery is 3 weeks old and has 700 CCA.

I'll remove the old one and see where it is at, but i definitely want to check for that heat shield aswell, i'm not sure if i have one!

gearhead141

It's been a few weeks and I can't speak for the group, but my curiosity wants to know. Did the new starter do the trick?

KNIGHTE

Hey - Soooo I've still not fitted it. Reason being is that I've found it really difficult to find a place to work on the car. I eventually brought it to urdreamgarage.com in Baldwin Park, about an hour away. They had a lift and tools. I decided to change the front calipers, pads, front rotors and wheel bearings and master cylinder as they were more safety oriented. That work took me 10 hours as I'm inexperienced.

I really it to find some place nearby :-/