89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Yes i know search....I already did so...

Looking for opinions on ZZX cam in my Dart SHP 406 vs Lunati 231/239 hydraulic roller. Stealth Ram ported ontop with ported AFR 195 heads (most likely flow as good as AFR 210).
I have seen only three people on different forums over the years running the Lunati/LE grind cam. One of them was a 355, one a 383 and the third a 406. IIRC most are/were miniram.
I initially thought the Lunati Voodoo wouldve itched the scratch of 11.7X ET (which would) but boredom and searches for proven 406 combos led me to 11sec91Z. Who had a 383 with miniram and ZZX. Ironically I met him once when I first came onto the board at Richmond Dragway when i raced there once.
I see he, in a 91Z28 went low 11s, 11.2X IIRC in a 383 and later 11.0X after Hooker 1 3/4 longtubes and shedding some weight, as did another member in a 1986 Corvette coupe (both had ZZX)

Seeing if anybody has experience with either cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Zzx is old but proven. 239 deg on both sides tho. Id rather see some duration split. The voodoo 231/239 is nice tho. I would go that no problem

honestly I would even go bigger than the 231/239 lunati voodoo. But that cam will go 11’s

a good 406 with good ports can swallow up that 243/251 voodoo cam they got. Give it a nice lope and still drive well. Take up all the power those heads can provide. Depends on how much they open the heads up, and how high u wanna turn it.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

With the lunati forged crank and ls7 lifters, I am pretty sure I'd be safe shifting around 6500, maybe a little more.
TBH the 231/239 is a LLoyd grind but based on the Voodoo cam, but just more lift.

I'm trying to be solid 11.5X or faster. It seems the zz409 is good for 11.7X maybe 11.6X, and from the two 383 engines with ZZX (maybe one was stealth ram or lt1 intake?) Were good for low 11's with supporting mods of course.

Justin didnt you used to work for Lloyd before?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Lol no. I have known alot of ppl who used his stuff before and it works good. I was gonna run one of his cams

231/239 on a 108-110 would be plenty for 11’s. My 383 was 11.4’s easy at 3450 lbs and just stock afr 195’s and a 230/245 109 lsa cam

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Yeah I remember that. You became quite popular during that build. There is a 383 LT1 on ls1tech.com, wheel stander I think is his name, he could only manage 11.7X at 115mph. I'm wanting closer to 120 and low 11's.

With either cam, I am debating my exhaust setup. Right now I have one of the last Dyno Don headers and dual cat y pipe waiting to go in. The catback on there now is an intermediate pipe made by a shop connecting to Magnaflow muffler. At the time magnaflow didnt make a catback for our cars. Unfortunately though, having it on the lift at Jeff Creech's, I took a look at the part that goes over the rear end (also getting replaced with a S60) and i saw wrinkles in the bend which means its crush bent.
I know the whole" 3 inch exhaust vs 3.5/4 inch exhaust"debate is dependent on the power level. I hope I am not cursing myself but from previous members, even in a stalled auto, they have put down 420 to 440 rwhp and slightly less torque. Lloyd says I'll need dual 3" but I believe I will be fine with the Sinister exhaust and Hooker maxflow 4 inch muffler. Everything I have read says you dont need the PHB relocation. Shame though, I wanted the Blackheart. I love the sound of it.
Anyways, I already had a couple 2.5 inch cutouts I was going to put on the y pipe from the headers to the cats but I have seen folks put a 3.5 or 4 inch cutout on the intermediate pipe before the axle. Cutouts would be cheaper but the placement is where I am concerned about.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

After seeing how modern cars in the 400-450 whp range responded to larger exhaust, i wouldnt run anything less than a single 4 on healthy heads cam motors. Esp a 406

i dont believe there is such thing as too big exhaust anymore. Maybe on header primary size and length but not on after collector

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

Your headers/exhaust will be your limiting factor if you are trying to get max e.t. out of it. 1 7/8 longtubes and dual 3" would be ideal for a healthy 406. If you're just wanting a nice street car with full exhaust and ground clearance, your setup will be fine, just know you're giving up a bit. As for cams, either of the ones you've picked will be fine, but I'd also go bigger. Your peak power will probably be right at 6000. If you want to shift the powerband higher, go bigger. Lots of options there, but I'd keep it around the 243 lunati Justin suggested, or something like the xfi292. I'm running the xfi cam in a 383, afr 195, miniram combo and anticipated very low 11's if I could drive the thing (manual trans), but changed combo's before making it to the track. I went 11.8's @ 116 with a 350 and a 220/230 cam. You're also going to want to make sure you have a good 4" air intake setup. The stock 3" will choke a 406.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

I will have to measure the pipe I brought over for my CAI but justin ran his mid 11 sec times and lower with a 150 shot through the ram air box and MAF and otherwise stock boot.

I do plan on upgrading the CAI to 4 inch mandrel if it isnt already or do what most of us do in Camaros and take out the fog lights and use that as a ram air.

I do know I'm giving up some power with the Dyno Don headers however, I am not going after trophies and points. Just a badass thirdgen in the mid to low 11s.

I ordered the Sinister 4 inch exhaust with Hooker Maxflow muffler. My driveway to the house is at an incline and I do not want to scrape everytime I come home or leave. If I am way down alot on power I will reconsider, otherwise I'll keep Dyno Don's headers.

I haven't had ANY luck with this car. The block was crap and internals were NOT forged after that is what I paid for when I was a 385. I have been through 3 transmissions, this S60 is my third rear end, this is my 4th engine and technically i never raced this Camaro. I wrecked my 89 Formula with the 385 and transferred everything to the current Camaro. My best time with 385 Stealth Ram 224/230 cam was a 12.4X at 108 with a decent 1.73 average 60 foot. Not bad for a 350 but terrible for a stroke L98.
I am just ready to be 100% DONE with the engine/trans and rear end. I want to concentrate on the interior dash pad, and gauges but I want it to be where I want it to be performance wise before looking 100% where I want it to be.

LLoyd did tell me he can definitely get me in deep low 11s high 10s IF I was willing to shift around 6800....tempting but I would think that would be a b*tch to drive on the street, especially if I upp my stall from 3400 to 4200ish. I want to be on the edge of streetable which is subjective of course. Talking with LLoyd and his statement I shared with you gents, it seems I am there now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I dont think it would be that bad to drive. To me the tune makes the most difference. My low comp turbo motor shifted over 6800 and was 246/252 and drove great. Ihad much bigger heads tho

skinny z

Any other specs on these cams other than duration?
Is 1/4 mile ET the primary consideration?

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Lunati 231/239- Hydraulic Roller Cam. Great for street machines. Likes upgraded intake, carb and headers. Needs 9.5:1 comp. min. Requires 2500 RPM stall converter in most applications and needs 3.42+ gearing.; Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 282/290; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 231/239; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .535/.550; LSA/ICL: 110/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 2400-6400

Lunati 243/251- Hydraulic Roller Cam. Serious street and bracket race cam. Needs 10.5:1 compression. Makes unequalled power above 3500 RPM. Works well with moderate amounts of nitrous or small supercharger.; Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 294/302; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 243/251; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .560/.565; LSA/ICL: 110/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 2800-680

TPIS ZZX/ Lloyd Elliot grind- adveritsed....290/290
.050..............240/240
lobe..............373/.373
valve.............559/.559
seperation....112+4*adv
int lobe.........108
BTDC............12.6
ABDC............48.1
BBDC............56.4
ATDC............4.3


Priorities for the car are a tie between street ability and power. I say power because it is on me, not the engine to make it hook at the track. If 1/4 ET was absolute primary consideration, I would go solid roller.

GTA matt

iTrader: (1)

What ecu are you using to control this thing? Just from my own experience with tuning similar cams on tighter LSA's, there is a marked difference in the ease of tuning between a 110 and a 114. Wide open throttle tuning is easy, it's the idle and part throttle that gets increasingly finicky as you tighten up the lobe separation on larger cams. With the smallish exhaust setup, I would stick with a split duration, give it all the help it needs. These criteria eliminate all the above cams. Being an auto street car, I'd also steer towards the smaller end of the spectrum. I know I mentioned the comp 292 cam earlier, but I'll also throw in the comp xfi 280 cam. 113 lsa, I suspect peak hp to be right at 6000, maybe a tad lower depending on exact manifold and cylinder head flow. It would be easy to tune, make terrific power, drive everywhere and not kill the valve springs. Having slightly larger displacement, it would help increase the driveability of the 292 over a smaller engine, but not by a large margin. A friend and I had this exact conversation while riding in my car, we both agreed it would suck if it was an auto, and a 280 would be the way to go. I don't think any camshaft, especially a hydro roller, will allow you to make power to 6800 with a stealth ram and those heads. In a car aimed towards drag racing: perfect converter, proper gear, sticky tire, I'd expect a high ten. A more street oriented deal, no reason why it shouldn't go a low 11 on a good tire.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Right on, i dont think the heads will have room to allow the area and valve needed to go 6800 on a 406. Shift by 6800 yes. Intake would need ported opened up as well. Cam doesnt neeed to be 240’s to get the job done but it would allow for best power in the 6000-6500 range imo


here was a friends car years ago. 406”+ Sbc miniram 6 spd. I forgot the exact bore diam. 248 Deg solid roller Which after lash would be closer to a 236-242 ish hyd roller. Afr old school 195’s that were ported to around 208cc and 300 cfm flow. Motor ran into the 10’s all motor. Was in a 87 gta til it was wrecked. Now a 94 bird

Eventually he went abit different cam and victor efi single plane. Car picked up power, it was around 521 whp. Used to make mid high 460’s. 250-275 shot it went 9.3-9.4’swith the stick shift. I know with a th400 and 300 shot it went like 9.0-9.1’s.

was on a 730 ecm lol
here was miniram with a 150 shot on a slipping clutch shifting 5 gears lol only a 10.25 at 136 lol

skinny z

I see that a lot of this cam selection has to do with EFI tuning and perhaps might otherwise force a decision on what would otherwise be optimal. How much of an impact does that tuning have?
And this directed to the OP, what kind of RPM range do want to be able to operate at? Off idle to redline? Converter flash stall to peak HP RPM?
I'm sure interested spectators know where I'm going and that's LSA. Seems to me 406 CID on a 110 (or 114 !) is leaving peak HP on the table. But I fully understand the compromises that a particular build might instill.
Damn. It's way easier to build a drag race only engine. Like 89formula350b2l said, it's up to him to make the car hook.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Absolutely. If this was an all out drag car, easy day. And yes I know 110 is leaving power on the table however since I tried my hand at tuning years ago and epically failed, I'm leaving it to the professionals.
stall currently is 3500 with str of 2.4. I am sEnding the trans back to performabuilt for their $1k refresh and sending the converter back to edge for 4000 to 4200 stall. I think since my shorty headers lose power from idle to roughly 4000k, this will negate the power I am losing from there (mostly). Peak horsepower I would want between 6000 and 6200, highest shift at 6500 give or take 200 rpm.

89formula350b2l

iTrader: (11)

Just looking for sub 11.5X man. Most 383 to 400/406 I have seen with 280xfi or cc306 have ran 11.7X with decent 1.65ish 60 footers on mickey thompson et street (not sure if it was SS or R)
besides 280xfi and cc306 have been a tried and true combo....I like trying something new (would've done the bigger lunati but already pulled the trigger on Lloyd's ZZX)
we shall see what happens. Do I think I made the right choice right now looking back? Maybe maybe not. But nonetheless itll be a fun street car that most wont see as a decently fast car

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

It will run good man