ShruikaN

Hey guys.

I just pulled my intake manifold off to redo the china wall RTV seals due to a blow out of the rear seal because I didn't use enough RTV.

Today I got everything back together after letting the new RTV dry overnight with the manifold torqued to 30ft/lbs. I am now facing a no start issue that is baffling me.

I have spark and fuel at the rail but no start, not even a pop. I have triple and quadruple checked all hoses, lines, fittings, and electrical connectors and everything is where it should be. The distributor was marked before removal and went back in lining up exactly with my markers.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!!

Rolling Thunder

I'm going to take a stab at this and guess the distributor is 180 degrees out? It's great that you marked the distributor housing before you pulled it, however even with that mark lined up, the rotor could be pointing backwards.

To prove (or disprove) this turn the engine over by hand to TDC #1 and see if the rotor is pointing at cylinder number one. Also keep in mind there is TDC on the compression stroke and the exhaust. You need to make sure you are on the compression stroke. A lot of guys will just pull spark plug number one put your finger in the hole and turn the motor over clockwise until you feel compression.

ShruikaN

Thank you for the reply!

I have already figured it out with my hunch on being a distributor problem.

Turns out I was about 3/4"-1" out from where it would actually start the car. Turned the distributor counter-clockwise by said amount and boom, fired right up!!

The idle is on the high side at about 950 RPM, and the dist. is turned as far counter-clockwise as the 4-pin wire will allow so tomorrow I will be pulling it again and setting it to wear there is no stress on the wires.

On a side-note. The RTV I put on the china walls still has not dried after 36 hours. I know it's a bit humid outside right now (Florida) but should it really take it this long? I'm tempted, as much as I don't want to, to pull the manifold again and seal the walls with Permatex Right Stuff but again, I REALLY don't want to go through this again haha.

Thanks for the help!

Rolling Thunder

Gasket maker can take a very very long time to completely dry if its applied thick (as it is in the front and rear of your intake manifold). The outside dries but the inside which is now pretty well sealed up remains soft for a while. I would expect it to dry within a day or two. If its not dry by the end of day three i would start to have questions. Maybe a little heat from a warm engine would help.

ShruikaN

Yeah I made sure to use PLENTY this time haha. Half a tube on each wall.

Is it safe to run it with the RTV still wet? I'm afraid of another blowout happening. If heat cures it I have a heat gun I can use.

Thanks for the tips

Rolling Thunder

While it's not cured by heat, it does accelerate the process. As far as running it when its not dry, those areas are really not under any pressure. Its really almost just a splash guard to keep the oil in and crap out. As long as the outside it feels reasonable dry (as in it dosnt just rupture oozing out undried sealer when you touch it) you should be fine to run it.

ShruikaN

I had a HUGE oil leak from the rear china wall, which is the reason I went through all of this. Noticed how thin the bead of RTV was and that there was a break in it right next to the dist. I shouldn't have that problem again with the amount I used this time but it still worries me. This isn't a job that is high on my "want-to-do" list.

The outside is still ooze. It's not as wet as it is straight from the tube, but it's definitely nowhere near dry.

Rolling Thunder

Well no harm in letting it sit and dry to be safe. However just a quick thought here are you sure it wasnt the oil pressure port on the back of the block leaking? That is under a lot of pressure and there have been instances of the fitting/sensors themselves leaking. Just a thought.

ShruikaN

I never even thought of that. Had no idea that was pack there. I can't see it when I look with the dist removes. Where is it and how do I check if it's leaking?

Rolling Thunder

It's actually a small 1/8 NPT port basically right by the distributor. If your cars got the factory set up there will be an oil pressure sensor/odd ball 90 degree fitting screwed into it.

Rolling Thunder

http://autofix.com.au/blog/chev-tune...rsion-part-two

check out this web page there's a great picture pointing it out.

ShruikaN

Ahhh! I actually took a picture of that before I disassembled the engine. Looks like there was oil pooling around it so THAT might actually be my problem. Do I just get a wrench on it and tighten it up??

I attached a picture for you to look at. I don't have a sensor/sender or a fitting of any kind on it;

Rolling Thunder

Well I don't want to just recommend tightening it up for fear of over torquing it though you could if it was loose. What I would recommend is removing it adding some thread sealer or teflon tape and then re-torque it

ShruikaN

What's the torque spec for it?

Rolling Thunder

Well to be honest I never really torque those down I just do it by feel. To give you an idea though it should be somewhere around 5-10 ftbls. Really just tighten till snug plus a little bit more like 1/4-1/2 turn.

ShruikaN

Ah, makes sense. Thank you for the help. I'll let you know how things go tomorrow when I work on it some more.

ShruikaN

Got the dist turned around this morning and just took it out for a drive. Seemed fine out on the road but right when I got into my driveway, it completely died. Coasted right up to the door. Went to restart it and it was a very hard start like my battery is dying even though it's less than 2 months old.

It restarted but chugged a lot and didn't sound like it usually does. Thinking I have the dist off but not sure.

Rolling Thunder

Timing sounds like a good place to start. Any check engine light? Also I know this may sound silly but make sure the distributor clamp is down tight. Sounds like you might be a bit advanced.

ShruikaN

I did get a SES after about 5 minutes of driving. I don't have an ALDL connector to scan with though and the paperclip method is a bit confusing. Also, when I shut the car off with a SES, then run it again, the SES is gone like it had a computer reset. Not sure why but it's been that way since I bought the car.

I did make sure to tighten down the clamp bolt before I took it for a run. Was told to make sure it's tight, but not so tight to where you can't loosen it to adjust it.

Advance is counter-clockwise correct? This is my first distributed vehicle and even though I read up on the ignition system, I seem to forget that information fairly easily.

85Iroc-Z

iTrader: (4)

Your just going to have to get a timing light to set the timing. That way you won't be just guessing where it's set at. Don't forget to disconnect the est wire before setting it too. And yes, advance is counter clockwise

ShruikaN

Will do. Thank you

85Special

Paper clip the top 2 pins upper right side. Turn the ignition on but do not start the car. The light will flash once than pause than twice more ie code 12. Code 12 is a place marker for diagnostic mode. It will flash code 12 three times than move on to any code stored in the computer following the same pattern flash x times than x more. Pause and repeat 3 times per code. Than end with flashing code 12 three times again. Anything in between is a problem, your light may go off and still have a stored code. Most common codes that don't stay on is a rich or lean run code in my experience. You may not be running on all 8, check your plugs. If not check injectors, ICM, pick up coil, coil, and wires. Wires first, I've cought myself on that one, boot pushed on but not all the way till it clicks.

Rolling Thunder

A few things here. First, I would be very curious to know what the check engine light was for. Even if the light is not on it may still store a code. A while back I made a quick video to show how to ring the codes out with a paper clip. If you haven't figured it out already you could PM me your email and I'll send it to you.

As far as the SES light resetting, we could easily test this by say unplugging the TPS sensor until the SES light comes on, reconnect the TPS, restart the car and see if the light is still present. If not you have another issue.

The distributor hold down should be tight to the point you cannot move the distributor by hand without first loosening the clamp. If this was true you should be ok. As mentioned I do recommend getting a timing light. Some can be had for as little as $20-30. However make sure you have the EST (electronic spark timing) wire disconnected. Otherwise you will not accurately time your ignition. Lastly I do believe you are correct counterclockwise to advance.

ShruikaN

Alright, thank you for the reply. It was raining most of the day today so I didn't get any work done on the car sadly.

I made sure the distributor couldn't be turned by hand before starting the car so I'm good there. I do have a timing light, cost me $70 so it's a fairly good one. I just went through a timing chain replacement due to the timing mark bouncing everywhere with the light on it. It still does that some and I'm not sure why so timing with a light is going to be difficult.

I pulled the number 3 plug (need to pull headers to get the rest) after the first start with the new RTV on the intake and it was black. Looked at a chart and that usually means it's running rich, which I firmly believe because I can smell it, and smell it well. It stunk up my house pretty bad and the car was 15 feet outside my garage, about 25 feet my A/C unit.

I've replaced the O2 sensor twice already. Once when I put the headers on, and again after I noticed it was running pretty rich thinking the sensor was DOA. Second sensor didn't change anything about that.

Rolling Thunder

Well first things first, when the weather clears up set the ignition timing. Also again make sure you disconnect the EST line other wise the ECM will try to adjust the timing while your trying to set it. This could explain why the timing was jumping around.

As far as running rich, pull the codes if you can. Lets see what that shows and well go from there.

ShruikaN

No, I always have the EST wire disconnected when playing with the timing. I wouldn't have gone through the hassle of a timing chain replacement without making sure that I was checking the timing right first.

I'll pull the codes first thing tomorrow and see what comes up.

Thank you

ShruikaN

Alright so I just pulled the codes and triple checked to make sure I got them right and got them all.

After code 12 here is what I got:

13. Oxygen sensor signal stays lean during warm engine cruise
44. Oxygen sensor lean
54. Low voltage at fuel pump OR Low voltage at Fuel pump relay OR Output failure at quad driver module

If there is low voltage at the fuel pump will that cause the amount of fuel getting to the injectors to decrease and in-turn cause my lean issue? And if so, will replacing the sending unit fix this or is this an electrical issue?

Thanks

Rolling Thunder

A few comments, first I am a little confused about the code 13/44. You are correct 44 indicates a lean condition (O2 sensor reads less than .2V for more than 50 seconds) but code 13 indicates no activity from the O2 sensor (as is an open circuit). To make it a bit more interesting code 44 must be in closed loop mode to be set but if a code 13 is present the car will not go into close loop mode. Since you had been working on the oxygen sensors, I would recommend disconnecting the battery to reset the codes and then see which codes return. I wonder if one of those codes was set before or while making the repairs (or possibly an intermittent wiring issue).

The code 54 is also interesting though I somewhat doubt its the cause of you drive-ability issues. It is set when the fuel pump receives less than 2V when it should have 12V (keep in mind with less than 2V at the fuel pump you would not be able to build enough pressure to run the car). This could be caused for a multitude of reasons. The easiest thing to do for now is to measure the fuel pressure for starters. This will at least prove or eliminate it as the cause of your driveability issues. You could also make sure your fuel pump primes when you turn the key into the on position and make sure the fuel pump is running immediately when you start to crank the car over. If you had an issue with your fuel pump relay, after cranking the car over for a while eventually you would build enough pressure for the oil pressure switch to bypass it and allow the car to start anyways. This would set a code.

ShruikaN

No activity? I pulled those code descriptions from HERE so I just went with what it described.

I worked on the oxygen sensors long before I did the intake manifold RTV repair but I will go ahead an disconnect the battery right now and let it sit overnight. I am also dealing with a wiring mess with the firewall relays next to the brake booster. It looks as if someone wired in a new MAF relay connector since the wires coming out of it are all white and are butt-connected to the harness wiring. One issue though is that the 5th wire from that connector isn't wired to anything and I have a thick yellow wire that isn't wired either. I traced that through the firewall to the fuse box under the dash where it is jumpered right into its own receptacle in the block. Also, the radiator fan relay has its black/red wire cut and I have a crudely wired switch in the cabin to manually control BOTH fans. My plan tomorrow is to fix this mess and also rid the fan switch so the fans are controlled by the PCM again.

Back on topic though, after I put my engine back together from the manifold gasket fix, I had some starting issues due to the distributor being way off somehow even though it was lined up with the marking I made before removal. Could this have caused the code 54? Also, the only way I can get my car to even start is by advancing the distributor as far as the wiring will allow it to turn (about 2 inches advanced of my markings). If I set it to where it was before being removed, it won't even sputter. I have no idea what is going on there.

I will go rent a fuel pressure gauge sometime tomorrow when I get the chance. The pump definitely primes as I usually wait for it to shut off before starting the engine. It does take it a bit of cranking for it to start though. I thought that could be caused by distributor/ignition timing issues though so I never really thought about it being the relay.

Rolling Thunder

Well I see what you mean and maybe its just a difference in terminology. The link below actually has some photos of a factory manual that explains in depth what this code means. Basically the ECM outputs .45V and the O2 sensor should influence this reading from roughly 0 to 1V as it cycles back and forth between rich and lean. This code means it basically just stayed at the ECMs reference voltage.

http://www.mifbody.com/vbulletin/sho...C-Codes-Sticky

Just as a heads up, the fuel pressure relay is also up by the brake booster. If you have a wiring mess there it may be related to your code 54 issue. The distributor/timing should not cause this code. Essentially the ECM controls the fuel pump and if it commands the fuel pump to turn on but then does not measure more than 2V at the fuel pump it will set this code. The ECM will command the pump to turn on when you first put the key in the run position or obviously while the cars running (more specifically while its receiving reference pulses from the ECM).

The distributor issue is basically you marked the distributor housing/cap relative to the intake manifold. However the timing is dependent on the rotors position relative to the cap. The rotor free to spin. Normally the oil pump drive would force you to reinstall the distributor in correctly or 180 degrees out but it was turned for whatever reason you rotor could be pointed anywhere while your distributor housing/cap is in its original position. It sounds like the distributor was installed a tooth or so off.

ShruikaN

Yeah I know the fuel pump relay is up there and this was what got me into a picture and wiring diagram frenzy about an hour ago. Surprisingly, the fuel pump relay is the only one that is intact. No cut or frayed wires. That put a downer on my mood but I'm hopeful that the issue will still get figured out.

Also, I marked the rotor's position on the distributor base-plate, and also the cap location relative to the manifold. I know the distributor was re-installed correctly because the rotor tip lined up with the mark on the base-plate exactly, and because that was aligned, so was the cap. I read the Hayne's manual before I got into all this so I knew exactly what to do with the distributor before removal.

I took a picture of the rotor head position after I advanced the distributor to where it would start the car so I could get a feel of where I need to set it so I'm not putting strain on the wire harness. The mark on the left with the R is the original mark I made of the rotor's position before removing it to do my manifold repair. I re-installed to that exact mark and to where the marking on the right matched up the one closer to the firewall on the manifold (ignore the mark farther from the firewall), but it won't run at that position.

As you can see, I had to advance it quite a ways (maybe a half inch? feels like more when turning it with the cap on) to get it to a position where the engine would run.

ShruikaN

So today my car actually started and ran fine. I didn't take it for a drive it sounded great at idle. I'm not sure what exactly is going on with this thing. Every problem I get is intermittent and usually only lasts a day or two.

I've popped a new fuel pump relay in just to see how it will act with it and left the car to sit with the battery out overnight. We'll see what the relay does for it in the morning.

ShruikaN

Alright well I just got back from a test drive with the new fuel pump relay. Besides the idle going to crap after it warmed up, I am now only getting one code. Code 44. The O2 sensor lean code. Would a new sensor help this or is there an issue with the fuel delivery system or an exhaust leak?

Also, what could cause the idle being good when engine is cold, and being crap when hot?

Thanks