mxcrazed

So today I am merging onto the highway in 4th and I drop it into 3dr and the tranny ***** the bed I think I snapped something it was shifting beautifully yesterday. Last night I was doing 135 mph on rt 2 east and I down shifted into 4th then 3rd at about 100 mph and the syncros didn't have time to align the gears and they ground a bit but it drove fine the rest of the night. I don't understand my engine is 250 hp max how did this happen I know I was told "go easy on that T5" and all but I was doing like a medium pull and its just gone!!! Not i have a bummed T5 and 700r4 that only shifts into second I don't know which to fix. What do you think happened to my T5? Why do you think my 700r4 won't get out of 2nd? which will cost less? how hard is it? back to the bullet proof jeep I guess, at least it has A/C and none of the windows are broken.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

By it being a T-5.

It broke.

It's wore out.

Depends on how much of the work you can do yourself, and how many times you have to do it before it's actually right.

Very hard for someone that doesn't know how to do it. Very easy for someone that does.

We all try to tell everbody here, the T-5 is a time bomb, that you can't really predict "how much it can take", that damage is CUMULATIVE and adds up over time as opposed to it's fine until you reach a threshold of "power" or whatever, that it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Well, I guess you now know "when".

mxcrazed

Well sofakingdum that was quite blunt and uninformative, lets try to help somebody next time. One way which you could accomplish this would be to ask questions pertaining to the damage which has occurred to my car and deduce solutions. Yes my post was quite vague, but that was intentional in an effort not steer your line of questioning in the wrong direction. I for one know for a fact that every diagnosis is proceeded by a process of elimination, what I do not know is the process of elimination.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Unfortunately, although it may be kinda blunt, the advice Sofa gave is about the best anyone can really offer in your situation. As far as your T5 goes, there is no "process of elimination" on that one. It's broke, and the only way you're gonna know exactly how much of it is broke is to pull it out of the car, tear it apart, and see how many internal parts are toast. The big problem with a grenaded T5 is the fact that it's almost never just one simple part that needs to be replaced. It's usually way more expensive to replace all the broken parts on one than it is to just get another used one that still works, especially if you're having to pay someone else to fix it. Same goes for the 700r4. Chances are it's in need of a full rebuild, once again requiring the "assistance" of a paid professional. Probably your most inexpensive option would be to get another working T5 and throw it in. You could hang on to the old one, and maybe be able to use it for spare parts if you ever need them. While it's usually cheaper to find a good, used 700r4 compared to a T5, you have to take into consideration the hassle of changing everything in your car over to where it would work with an auto instead of a manual trans. P.S. You might want to consider getting ahold of board member Anesthes. He's up in your neck of the woods and usually knows where to get a working T5, if he doesn't already have one just lying around.

mxcrazed

The unfortunate part is that I'm sure plenty of you know better answers for my questions. If I ask for instance, what do you think happened? An answer such as... Well the tail shaft tends to fail first or the splines on the input shaft stripping are a common problem, thats what you should look for. This is how you check it. Don't you think that would be a better response. Any dumb fart can answer my questions the way you guys have so far so if you would prefer to liken your self to my flatulence please do not do it in my thread.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Your transmissions aren't close enough to your monitor for me to look inside the case and see what's tore up; so I'm afraid there's not much more I can do to help you here. Until we know what's tore up, i's going to be real hard to tell you what has to be replaced, how much it will cost, and how "hard" it will be to do the work. You haven't even told us the full symptoms; like, what gears still do (or don't) work, or what gears it makes noise in, or anything like that. It's not like we have any information to go on besides "it broke".

Like Pat said, when you grenade a T-5, it tends to take out LOTS of parts; in your situation, since it broke in 3rd gear, it might have stripped all the teeth off of 3rd gear and off of that gear on the countergear, for example. So to fix it, you need both of those parts, plus a "rebuild kit" with the bearings and such in it, plus anything else that sufered "collateral damage". I'd suggest looking up the prices on those things, as the BARE MINIMUM POSSIBLE in the most optimistic scenario, to fix it. The cost will only go up fron there.

However, the only way to know what's wrong with it, is to tear it down and look. I've had the clutch gear / countergear teeth to strip off, individual gears strip, a mainshaft to snap in half, another mainshaft to fail where its little "pilot" nose fits into the clutch gear, and of course a HUGE pile of stretched cases (the root cause of most T-5 failures). You could have ANY of those thing, or all of them, or none of them. Only one way to find out.

mxcrazed

Well there you go sofa, a line of questioning which will help me determine what has happened to my tranny. Now I can help you help me, now that you have initiated the process of elimination. When I was merging no to Rt.3 N I down shifted into 3rd and gave it about 3/4 throttle then a bout a second later there was a noise so I depressed the clutch and coasted, as I coasted I tried 4 and 5 with a sort of banging rattling when ever i lifted the clutch. I could not pull my transmission today I was rebuilding the dana 35 in my jeep. Yesterday I found a t5 for $100 on craigslist that I'll pick up asap $400 for a 700r4 and an 86" 305 tpi with wiring harness and comp with it.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Yeah dude, it's not like we weren't trying to help you by just giving you a "cop-out" type answer. In all honesty, I wouldn't even know for sure what was broke on my own manual trans until I pull it out and look inside. Case in point was my Muncie 4 speed a couple of years ago. It started making a really loud banging noise while going down the road, and it was noisiest in 2nd. I babied it home, pulled the trans apart, and got lucky in the fact that it only broke a couple of teeth off 2nd gear. But before I tore it apart, it could've easily taken out the countergear too, which would've dramatically increased the cost of fixing it. Luckily I had another Muncie in the shop, so I just cannibalized 2nd gear out of the other one. So that's really all we're trying to say, is you have take it apart and look to figure out how much damage there really is.

mxcrazed

Not quite you were quite helpful compaired to sofa. At first sofa apperaed to be avoiding being helpful intensionally, you would have go out of your way to be that unhelpful. What you have to understand you are dealing with a mechaically compedent person here with no actual experience. I am willing to tackle any job wil a fair amount of research an if necessary guidance. Is there anything that I should try before pulling the tranny or will everything be blatently obvious with out having to disassemble the tranny?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

That's just the point I was trying to make, is that probably nothing will be obvious at all until it's removed and you can take a look inside. The good thing is that it sounds like you quit driving it pretty quick after it died. I've seen a lot of guys, myself included when I was younger, who continue to drive them as long as possible before trying to fix the problem, and they just eat everything up inside. The first thing you should do after pulling it out of the car is remove the top cover. This will give you a good view of almost all the internals, except 5th gear, which is in the tailshaft area. Chances are, you'll probably discover a couple of broken off gear teeth laying in there somewhere, or possibly a broken snap ring, bearing rollers, etc. On that Muncie that blew 2nd, I used one of those small, telescoping magnet tools, and fished out a couple of broken teeth after removing the side cover. I also rotated the input shaft using my hand, and you could plainly see two teeth broken clean off 2nd gear, and a third tooth that was half gone. I was just lucky that they ended up in the bottom of the case instead of being picked up and ran through the countergear assembly, which would've eventually happened if I had kept driving it around. The strangest part was that I was driving like grandpa when it broke. Must've had a hairline crack in the gear, maybe from running it hard before or something.

mxcrazed

Yea after it imploded I just rolled for about 1/2 mile with the clutch in and tried 4th and 5th, they both just made horrible noises so I stopped immediately and towed it. I don't think that there was any power to the wheels in either of those gears but the noises were a little too horrifying to give it any throttle. I'm going to pick up another t5 today for $100 but of course I'll pull mine open to see what happened. Do you think that it is possible that it could be a clutch issue broken flex plate or pressure plate? You probably won't be able to answer that.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Highly doubtful. Really sounds like something grenaded inside the trans to me.

mxcrazed

Update: as of now I have bought another T5, cleaned it, opened it up and inspected it, painted it orange (I wish it was a darker shade) Today I pulled the old T5 and to my surprise there is a centerforce clutch. After the tranny was out I tore it open and third gear is missing about 4-6 teeth on the counter shaft. I noticed that both these transmissions had timken bearings, did they originally come with timkens? the good news is that nothing looks worn in either trans except the shifter rod on the new tranny has chaffed a bit where it exits the access panel, the old tranny is not worn in this area. Do you think that I should swap this part? I don't think that it will affect functionality. Pictures will come tomorrow hopefully please don't rag on me for the orange paint.

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

Yeah, all the 88-up, world class units came with timken bearings. That's one of the major differences between them and the 87-down ones. The timken bearings are tapered, or cone shaped, which increased the amount of torque they can handle. The other major difference in the WC units is they got fiber-lined synchros, which helps them to shift smoother, and is also why they require ATF for fluid. I doubt the chafing on the selector shaft would hurt anything, but if it's easy enough to swap out, I suppose you could. No big surprise that 3rd gear ate it. If you look at a lot of the old posts on here about T5's blowing up, 3rd gear is the culprit probably about 95% of the time. Since it's about right in the center of the gear cluster, it's the most prone to flexing. Tons of guys have said theirs blew in 3rd while under power, not being shifted to harsh, but just the steady pull while in 3rd. Just ask board member Shagwell how many T5's he's killed while in 3rd.

mxcrazed

These Two T5's are an 86 and an 87, I must have been wrong about it being third because it is the gear closest to the bell housing. I just assumed that it was third because that was the gear I was in at the time of the failure. How difficult is it to find and install a muncie 4 from an earlier third gen, what is the torque rating?

Pat Hall

iTrader: (31)

The gear closest to the bellhousing is 4th. The 3rd gens never got a Muncie from the factory. A VERY small percentage of the 82/83 cars got the Borg Warner Super T10. The vast majority of them got the lousy Saginaw 4 speed though. I don't know the exact torque rating on the Super T10, but they're WAYYYY tougher than any T5. Super T10's are not hard to find at all, except for the 3rd gen ones. They're unique due to the torque arm provision on the tailshaft housing. Putting a regular type Super T10, or even a Muncie in a 3rd gen is doable, but it's not cheap. You have to buy an aftermarket crossmember setup from Spohn that relocates the torque arm to the crossmember instead of the tailshaft housing. You'd also need either the 82-83, mechanical clutch linkage(pedals, bellcrank, linkage rods), and the 82-83 belhousing, or the expensive hydraulic throwout bearing that McLeod sells, the longer 82/83 driveshaft, and lastly, the 82/83 3rd gen, Hurst Competition Plus, Super T10 style shifter. For all the money you have to spend on that setup, most guys opt for either a T56, 6 speed out of a 4th gen, or an aftermarket Tremec TKO 5 speed. For all the money, it just makes more sense to use a trans that still has overdrive. I picked up a TKO for my 3rd gen that's going in soon, and I'm seriously considering getting another TKO for my 69 Camaro to replace the Muncie that's in there now. It really sucks trying to do 75-80 mph on the freeway with 3.73's and no overdrive! The Tremec has a lower 1st gear for great takeoff capability, and a nice 5th gear for high speed cruising, so they're much more versatile than the old 4 speeds.

fignewton

iTrader: (1)

Most T-5's will blow either third or fourth gear. It is just what they do. Rated optimistically at 245 HP. It is just a weak transmission.
I just installed a TKO600 in my 84. Most of the guys buy one from Fortes or someone else with a whole bunch of extra pieces (trans to bellhousing adapter, one-off pilot bearing, cut down the driveshaft, aftermarket crossmember, etc.) to make it all work.
I bought the Tremec GM TKO600 roadrace trans part# TCET-4618 (5th gear is a true 5th not an overdrive) It bolted directly into my t-5 bellhousing. I had to modify my crossmember and build an offset plate for my shifter. I also had to put a C6 yoke on my driveshaft. I have a small driveline angle issue at the tailshaft and I will either have to go to an aftermarket bellhousing (to clock the trans horizontal) or modify my trans tunnel to bring the tailshaft up. Either way it is without compare as far as manual transmissions go.

Your best bet is to do what you are doing and buy another t-5 cheap.
I now have two t-5 core transmissions. I haven't opened up the original tranny but the second one that was supposedly "hopped up" lasted three weeks (I'm pushing almost 400 hp) and gave a loud bang when it took out third gear.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Hum... 135mph is a "medium pull"?

And I'll keep it simple. Keep them kinda speeds for the track, not the streets. I have no sympathy for you having two broken transmissions.

mxcrazed

Man did you even read the whole post here! I said that I was doing a full pull the night before and reached 135mph approximately. I also spoke about a an event the following day "medium pull" merging onto the highway when the transmission failed. You are getting these two events confused. Even further I do not come to TGO for sympathy "sympathy" is a figment of your imagination, a marketing scheme. I come to TGO for facts and it seems that I have more, what does that tell you? You do not even understand the conditions of the transmissions enough to be able to decide what "broken" actually is. I only have one "broken" transmission. User fignewton happens to have two broken T5 transmissions which in no way failed do to any of my actions. Who are you any way Dale; why do I want your sympathy? Get your facts straight first Dale and then sake a shot at me next time.

mcgarnicle

iTrader: (14)

take it easy, I agree with Dale about those speeds in rural areas. Going that fast is only for the strip and the autobahns. As far as help from members here, based on your attitude I don't think I would offer up advice, and I haven't.

mxcrazed

Well that is your decision and you have made it. I am very appreciative for the help that other members have offered me. I personally don't think that it is alright to take a shot at someone with out having your facts straight. I'll tell you this much I would not take a shot without my facts straight. If you decide you have something technical to add then it is welcome but until then thats another story.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

how hard is it to open up the case and put it back together?

mxcrazed

Thank you Zepher you are my man! It really isn't bad at all I did it for my first time in 10 minutes. I knocked the roll pin out and the aluminum cap on the back I knocked towards the inside so i can reuse it. then you just unbolt the tail housing and pull it right off the access panel cannot come off until the tail housing is off because it has to slide about 1' towards the passenger side of the tranny. I got lucky and happen to have the correct speedometer gears for my tire size and rear end to fix my speedometer one gear from each trans was correct I got lucky!

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

Ya, my tranny doesn't want to go into any gear smoothly, feels extremely notchy, like it hits a gate before it goes fully into a gear.