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I've been told that even the World Class T-5's suffer from a weak case that when subjected to a lot of abuse lets things bulge out and gain to much play and gear slop leading to catstrophic failure even if using better internal parts.
And I've been told that the T-56 is a much stronger transmission due to both it's case being tougher and having a bigger, more desirable centerline to centerline distance between the gear set shafts. (along with it's extra gear).
So my question is, even though the Tremec TKO 500 and 600 5-speed transmissions would basically have the shorter centerline to centerline shaft distance and inherent smaller gears, does the better case make them a much better unit than a world class T-5? How would a TKO 600 compare to a stock T-56 (in good condition) out of an LT-1 3rd Gen, or- compared to a beefed up aftermarket T-56?
Also, can you run either a TKO or a T-56 using old school blowproof bellhousings and clutch and fork setups? Retaining stock firewall/tunnel or pedal mechanisms is not a concern for me because my car would be substantially modified in these areas.
Finally, what are the opinions concerning the use of old school Muncie or T-10 trannys with a gear vendors set up versus the newer trannys concerning utility, weight, ease of shifting and cost, etc.?
the older stuff will not work easily, pretty much forget it unless you enjoy pain.
the tko's and the lt1 year (93-97) fbody t56 transmissions use forks and hydraulic slave cylinders like stock, the t56 is reversed though.
the tko500 has a first gear that is too low, so you would want the tko600.
a "stock" tko600 is rated for 600ft/lbs of torque, the stock t56 is rated for about 450.
I believe the t56 is heavier, and its trans mount is about 2" further back than stock, requiring a trans crossmember that is offset back a great deal. there are some strong opinions as to why that a really bad idea floating around here.
the tko600 is a lot taller than the t56, so it does not fit in the tunnel properly, and without tunnel modification it will sit at a rather significant angle, which reduces stock style exhaust crossover clearance, and creates an undesirable drivetrain angle.
the t56 can be done a lot cheaper than the tko though. Since there are not a lot of f-body specific tko's out there used, you are probably going to have to get a new one, and with all the parts your looking at about 3k. You can get the t56 used for well under a grand most the time, and i have seem complete swaps for for 1500ish from time to time, now obviously if you buy high end clutches flywheels and bellhounsings these nu will increase, but thats a good baseline.
I have a tko600, i have modified my trans tunnel to fit it properly, and i do really like the trans.
I have a tko 500 and love it. Just watch out for used transmissions. Ask me how i know lol. The 500 as said above has a REALLY low first gear...so low that you wouldnt want anything more than a 3.23/3.27 gear in the rear. I have 3.27s and its just about right.
I have a tko600, i have modified my trans tunnel to fit it properly, and i do really like the trans.
Is it possible that the firebird / transam has a different tunnel than the camaro? I just finished an install on a new tko600 and didn't have any issues with tunnel clearance. I used the spohn crossmember that I had for my t-5 and it bolted directly in place putting the trans at the same angle it was previously, without hitting the top of the tunnel. As best I could measure, the trans mount to the center of the output shaft were the same distance on both the t-5 and the tko 600 so I assume since I used the same crossmember, i'm sitting at the same angle. I havent had a chance to check just yet. I also didn't use the fortes adapter plate, I just simply bolted it directly to the lakewood bellhousing, maybe as the tunnel goes rearward it thins up some?
You got it. Its the bolting directly to the lakewood bellhousing that kept you from having to modify your tunnel. But...your shifter is also 1 inch farther forward than with the adapter. Both camaros and firebirds both got the same tunnel so its just the fact that the tunnel does get narrower as it goes back.
ok, that answers that. The fortes kit has its pros and cons. Moving the shifter handle back an inch or two is far easier than modding the trans tunnel in my opinion. I like the route I went because for around the same price, i'm getting an almost $500 lakewood bellhousing, whereas with the fortes kit you are re-using your stock piece. Yes, I had to source a conversion u-joint, speedo conversion, etc. that his kit comes with, both routes have their own benefits. In my case the driveshaft fit perfect and I think it would have needed to have been shortened if I used the fortes spacer plate. Also, I was able to use the same crossmember I had on the t-5 with no modifications whatsoever. Definitely some factors to weigh in
rlewi, you were able to use the same driveshaft as your stock stick t-5? I have a tko600 sitting next to my car, just haven't had the time to put it in. Which u-joint did you end up using? Why do you have to switch u-joints? What otehr pieces do you need? I already have the lakewood bellhousing, not going to use the adapter, have a shifter that is going to push the **** back an inch or so. Anything else?
Yes I used the same drive shaft, with the exception of you have to change the yoke on the driveshaft. The GM t-5 uses a 26 spline outputshaft whereas the tremec has a 31 spline, so you need to use a 31 spline yoke to accomodate that. You need a conversion U-joint as the caps on the u joint that fit into the driveshaft are the GM size and the two that go into the yoke are a Ford size. I forget the specifics on the u-joint but it is very easily found on here by searching tko500/600 threads. You will need to decide what you are doing about your torque arm, if you see above I used the same spohn crossmember that I had for my t-5 that relocates the torque arm to the crossmember and it worked perfectly with the new tko. You will need a speedo conversion gear. A lot of that stuff will be easily sourced through Fortes.
All that being said, once I got the brand new TKO 600 in, I was severely disappointed. The trans is awful about shifting into third gear quickly. I used a brand new clutch flywheel etc etc, the installation on everything is done properly and it does not want to hit third gear quickly. You go to hit third and it's like hitting a wall, it just will not shift in. I did a quick google search and you will see TONS of other people complaining about the exact same problem. Numerous people on the web talk about a rebuild kit with new syncros and gears that will fix it, and while at the track I spoke to a local speed shop i know well and the owner confirmed that he has opened and rebuilt numerous tko's for the exact same problem. $500 parts and labor (if i bring the tranny to him) will have it shifting smoothly, but why in the hell you should have to do that with a brand new performance transmission makes no sense to me. Search the web, i'm certainly not the only one with this issue
Yes I used the same drive shaft, with the exception of you have to change the yoke on the driveshaft. The GM t-5 uses a 26 spline outputshaft whereas the tremec has a 31 spline, so you need to use a 31 spline yoke to accomodate that. You need a conversion U-joint as the caps on the u joint that fit into the driveshaft are the GM size and the two that go into the yoke are a Ford size. I forget the specifics on the u-joint but it is very easily found on here by searching tko500/600 threads. You will need to decide what you are doing about your torque arm, if you see above I used the same spohn crossmember that I had for my t-5 that relocates the torque arm to the crossmember and it worked perfectly with the new tko. You will need a speedo conversion gear. A lot of that stuff will be easily sourced through Fortes.
All that being said, once I got the brand new TKO 600 in, I was severely disappointed. The trans is awful about shifting into third gear quickly. I used a brand new clutch flywheel etc etc, the installation on everything is done properly and it does not want to hit third gear quickly. You go to hit third and it's like hitting a wall, it just will not shift in. I did a quick google search and you will see TONS of other people complaining about the exact same problem. Numerous people on the web talk about a rebuild kit with new syncros and gears that will fix it, and while at the track I spoke to a local speed shop i know well and the owner confirmed that he has opened and rebuilt numerous tko's for the exact same problem. $500 parts and labor (if i bring the tranny to him) will have it shifting smoothly, but why in the hell you should have to do that with a brand new performance transmission makes no sense to me. Search the web, i'm certainly not the only one with this issue
Sorry off topic but PM me if you're interested in selling your TKO 600....I've been trying to find a used one for over a year and although I've heard problems with getting into gears at high rpms, I really want to go TKO vs t56.
All that being said, once I got the brand new TKO 600 in, I was severely disappointed. The trans is awful about shifting into third gear quickly. I used a brand new clutch flywheel etc etc, the installation on everything is done properly and it does not want to hit third gear quickly. You go to hit third and it's like hitting a wall, it just will not shift in. I did a quick google search and you will see TONS of other people complaining about the exact same problem. Numerous people on the web talk about a rebuild kit with new syncros and gears that will fix it, and while at the track I spoke to a local speed shop i know well and the owner confirmed that he has opened and rebuilt numerous tko's for the exact same problem. $500 parts and labor (if i bring the tranny to him) will have it shifting smoothly, but why in the hell you should have to do that with a brand new performance transmission makes no sense to me. Search the web, i'm certainly not the only one with this issue
I had this same problem with mine even after a rebuild. Then i got pissed off and tried something. If you have driven 5 speeds and 6 speeds like me for a long time you probably do the same thing as me. You unintentionally guide the shifter over to 3rd without thinking about it. You literally have to leave your palm open and hit it forward almost like you want to go to first again. The spring inside the shifter/trans is so strong it will pull it over and the momentum will get it straight into 3rd. I havent missed 3rd since and i can even powershift it in if i want to. If your leaving your palm closed over the ball then your probably guiding it without knowing it and hitting the wall between 3rd and 5th. Just food for thought. Not saying you dont know how to drive stick at all but these transmissions almost need a new lesson in driving stick.
To add one more thing...when im hitting it into third im hitting it on the RIGHT (passenger) rear side of the shift ****. If you try hitting it on the left rear you will be somewhat guiding it again and run into the same old problem. It worked for me at least.
Sorry off topic but PM me if you're interested in selling your TKO 600....I've been trying to find a used one for over a year and although I've heard problems with getting into gears at high rpms, I really want to go TKO vs t56.
I had this same problem with mine even after a rebuild. Then i got pissed off and tried something. If you have driven 5 speeds and 6 speeds like me for a long time you probably do the same thing as me. You unintentionally guide the shifter over to 3rd without thinking about it. You literally have to leave your palm open and hit it forward almost like you want to go to first again. The spring inside the shifter/trans is so strong it will pull it over and the momentum will get it straight into 3rd. I havent missed 3rd since and i can even powershift it in if i want to. If your leaving your palm closed over the ball then your probably guiding it without knowing it and hitting the wall between 3rd and 5th. Just food for thought. Not saying you dont know how to drive stick at all but these transmissions almost need a new lesson in driving stick.
To add one more thing...when im hitting it into first im hitting it on the RIGHT (passenger) rear side of the shift ****. If you try hitting it on the left rear you will be somewhat guiding it again and run into the same old problem. It worked for me at least.
I agree, this is valuable information. I altered my shifting, as well as rebuilt mine with carbon lined blocker rings for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear and my problem is now gone as well. For me, it was a little bit the shifting, but more so the blocker rings. Once I did those, shifting problems are gone.
Yea i have new blockers on 1st through 4th. I also have bronze shift pads if i remember right. My problems are gone now. It is a bit tough to get into first every now and again though. Ive checked everything i can think of so im not sure what that is but it does go in and doesnt grind.
the older stuff will not work easily, pretty much forget it unless you enjoy pain.
the tko's and the lt1 year (93-97) fbody t56 transmissions use forks and hydraulic slave cylinders like stock, the t56 is reversed though.
the tko500 has a first gear that is too low, so you would want the tko600.
a "stock" tko600 is rated for 600ft/lbs of torque, the stock t56 is rated for about 450.
I believe the t56 is heavier, and its trans mount is about 2" further back than stock, requiring a trans crossmember that is offset back a great deal. there are some strong opinions as to why that a really bad idea floating around here.
the tko600 is a lot taller than the t56, so it does not fit in the tunnel properly, and without tunnel modification it will sit at a rather significant angle, which reduces stock style exhaust crossover clearance, and creates an undesirable drivetrain angle.
the t56 can be done a lot cheaper than the tko though. Since there are not a lot of f-body specific tko's out there used, you are probably going to have to get a new one, and with all the parts your looking at about 3k. You can get the t56 used for well under a grand most the time, and i have seem complete swaps for for 1500ish from time to time, now obviously if you buy high end clutches flywheels and bellhounsings these nu will increase, but thats a good baseline.
I have a tko600, i have modified my trans tunnel to fit it properly, and i do really like the trans.
Hi. I'm seriously considering this swap myself & thanks for the info. Can You recommend what mods you had to make to your tunnel, crossmember, driveshaft?, in order to make it fit. I already have the 3rd gen pedals, clutch & flywheel. I'm currently running a 400 sml blk. Thanks.
for the TKO, modifying the trans tunnel requires all of smacking it with a hammer, its not very labor intensive at all. I didn't use the adapter plate for my install, I didn't like the thought of pulling the shaft out of the clutch assembly. I used the stock trans mount for it and heard you have to use washers to get the pinion angle just right but I haven't gotten that far just yet. I used a tri ax shifter bar and a plate to get it where I need the shifter.
No, the problem is the trans is too tall for the tunnel, even without the adapter the trans sits at a pretty decent downward angle. I raised the back of the tunnel just before the console storage area, about 1". Its the only way I could get the driverrain angle correct. I really doubt simply removing the adapter from the bellhousing would help. If u measure the height of the input that vs the height of the trans mounting surface on the t5 and the too you will find they are almost the same. So if the Spohn crossmember from Spohn lowers the mount, how can it be fitting correctly?
no hemmering will fix this problem. Without mutilating. The car
Thanks for that Guys. I'm considering a few options @ the moment. I guess living so far away from the heart of 3rd Gen where parts are cheaper & more readily available, our options in New Zealand are quite limited as to what we can get our hands on, & the price, "damn".
I've considered other options like the Richmond 6 speed (with point 8 O/D).
Not keen on any other 6 speed like T56. My Corvette i hardly used 6th.
One swap i am also debating is the R154 Supra 5 speed. Just waiting to hear back from a supplier to see whether a Sml blk Bellhousing is available for them.
@ a cost of $3000NZ brand new & standing up to 650 to 700 hp, i think thats pretty good vs a TKO 600 for $5700NZ ($3800US), not incl clutch parts for either.........
If You's hear from me again, i've done a manual swap. If not, i've stayed auto.
Last edited by gunwelda_66; 10-27-2015 at 02:05 PM.
My build started with a custom double hump trans mount for a 700R4 in stock location. Swapped in a TKO 600 and trans angled down an additional 3 degrees as trans mount pad is located closer to output shaft centerline . To get proper alignment back I had to raise trans with 1/2" aluminum spacer and also lower engine some. Even so I had to cut tunnel out to clear top of trans. Here is pic of fabricated tunnel cover.
The tko and t56 trans do not taper down after bellhousing like a 700R4 does, they stay relatively flat clear back to the shifter. Also they have flat, square cover plates that interfere with the narrow curved top of the tunnel.
Wow. Thats some serious work going on here 83RDRACR.
I'm guessing that i'll run into similar problems i think. Mind You, i won't know until i start. Here are some pics of what i have so far.
R154 5 Speed Toyota. Also bought Marlin Crawler upgrade (which makes bulletproof up to 600hp).
Should be done around june or july.
There is also something called an A5. Basically a t5 with way stronger gears. Can get an updated thicker main case as well. Fitment is an issue with these tkos.
the older stuff will not work easily, pretty much forget it unless you enjoy pain.
the tko's and the lt1 year (93-97) fbody t56 transmissions use forks and hydraulic slave cylinders like stock, the t56 is reversed though.
the tko500 has a first gear that is too low, so you would want the tko600.
a "stock" tko600 is rated for 600ft/lbs of torque, the stock t56 is rated for about 450.
I believe the t56 is heavier, and its trans mount is about 2" further back than stock, requiring a trans crossmember that is offset back a great deal. there are some strong opinions as to why that a really bad idea floating around here.
the tko600 is a lot taller than the t56, so it does not fit in the tunnel properly, and without tunnel modification it will sit at a rather significant angle, which reduces stock style exhaust crossover clearance, and creates an undesirable drivetrain angle.
the t56 can be done a lot cheaper than the tko though. Since there are not a lot of f-body specific tko's out there used, you are probably going to have to get a new one, and with all the parts your looking at about 3k. You can get the t56 used for well under a grand most the time, and i have seem complete swaps for for 1500ish from time to time, now obviously if you buy high end clutches flywheels and bellhounsings these nu will increase, but thats a good baseline.
I have a tko600, i have modified my trans tunnel to fit it properly, and i do really like the trans.
what exactly is involved in modifying the tunnel? I'm going to be doing this swap soon as well
04-22-2012, 09:53 PM
