AGood2.8

Well here's what I have decided on and will start acquiring (some I have, most I still need to get or find)-

Block: Used 93-95 camaro 3.4/ Bored to 3.65. /fitted with 4bolt mains on the 2 & 3 journals. Various other standard mach work+ Oil flow work.

Crank: 3.4 DIS crank/ magnaflux,DIS trigger lobe ground and use as counter for internal balance, shotpeen, nirtate, polish, and magnaflux again on final inspection.

Rods: Eagle "esp" H-Beam rods- lightweight/ small journal SBC 6"/ starting weight 545g- machine down BE width to .854

Pistons, rings, & pins: Ross pistons decked to 0, 10.1 compression with .045 headgasket (Compression will be 10.3,Gives me room to bump it down if predetonation occurs on pump gas- the higher rod ratio should allow a little more CR) Attention to lightness/ pin fitted w/ spirolocks

----note: Rod/ piston assemblies will be aprox 1000g's each Definately under 1100g's loking for high r's----

Cam: 216 228 dur (Duration will be longer with 1.6 rockers) -.484 .512 w/ 1.6 rockers- lobe sep 112
Aprox basic range is 2500-6000 rpm with attainable power to 7200 with those specs and componant marraige. Hyd lifters for endurance.

Heads: Supersix 54cc w/ 1.8i valve - additional high lift spring work and retainers.

Valve covers: Fiero alum- ceramic coated
Rockers: gold alum 1.6 w/ pushrod kit

Headers: PF&E Stainlesssteel and ceramicoated.

Intake manifold- Lower- stock MPFI ported & polished
. Middle- stock MPFI ported & polished
. Upper- Custom alum plenum- shortened runners-high volume-ceramic coated

TB: 62mm billet alum

Injectors:19lbs w/ Holley AFPR

Pump: '89 Vette pump (A/C Delco) all Metal internals- Already in car thank gosh.

Waterpump & passages: will be tapped and altered for better cooling.

Pan: Customised stock pan w/ 6-7 quart - baffles and windage tray- High volume pump

Edit: And a 6 1/4" Fluidamper ( Less rotation mass-good for higher r's)& double roller timing chain of course.


Thats the basic premise without getting into bearings and all the little details

Lee7

Sounds perfect, somebody is finally doing a decent NA build up on these engines!

Only 1 thing, with higher ratio rockers, the duration stays the same but the lift (and lift rate) increase. Which is why people use them on boosted motors with low duration cams. (overlap sucks for boosted)

AGood2.8

Not true, This is an old and often misunderstood arguement.

True that duration from 0.00" lift stays the same

However, duration increases at .050 point on the lobe where profile duration is measured. The 1.6's cause the valve to open at a steeper faster rate- so duration is also increased.

Thus, overlap slightly increases with the higher ratio also. The problem with the HT3.4 crate motor is the cam sep is only 107 and not 112 like the stock 3.4 Camaro crate motor- More overlap of course gives more low end. Id like to bump the lobe sep on the cam I want to 113 or 114 but I would need a custom grind. I want this motor streetable thought (And may have to contend with smog checks *may have to *)- I already own one monster that is no longer fun to drive on surface streets.

Edit: I know the quote"gives more low end" is wrong I was corrected below Just for the record

jeremy178

quick question: why such a high degree of lobe separation? I would figure that about 111 degrees would suit fine. not saying you've got a bad setup, just kinda wondering what you had up your sleeve (turbo?)... Anyways setup looks great, can't wait to see the dyno on that one. Keep up the good work

AGood2.8

Power up top . I'm trying to keep the torque high around 3500+. I don't want low end, I'm looking for more of a high revving roadrace motor that is still streetable. I want the final lobe sep to be aprox 112 but will probably be closer to a 111 sep overlap spec with the 1.6 rockers on that 1.5 profile cam. (I hope I clarified that right)

I want a broader range of power through the gear for high speed cornering. More like a tiny indy car motor.

Edit: The HT 3.4 crate motor has max torque @ 2700 rpm's I want a motor that will pull broader ranges- the HT3.4 is more for towing (lobe sep of 107). This is a crap shoot because there is not much info to reference with different applications such as V8's have- A V8 has been built every way imaginable and tested.

AGood2.8

I have put this up here because I want it to be open to criticism ( Corrective criticism ) I'm no expert on the V6- never built one before. Have built several V8's though- one that turns 8500 rpm's and runs high 10's. I figure everyone can pick at it and help me rethink everything if necessary before I completely commit (I am commited pretty deep, however I still have many options with decissions)

Dale

iTrader: (12)

A custom tuned chip for all that.

Does anyone make a better distrib for us??

I assume your already running better ignition?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

What's the piston to valve clearance going to be?

Also thremo coat the piston tops, valve bottoms & head chambers.

Why not coat all the intakes?

AGood2.8

There's a point where I go overboard cost wise I'm already running a custom 4 core radiator and the running temp is 172*right now (Yes its in closed loop, I've scanned it on a Diacom)- I just plain to paint the middle and lower manifolds. Want to coat the top mainly for looks because its homemade. It is large enough to disapate heat and coating will help cover blemishes and pits I had to fill from aluminum weld splatter.

Dale, the Ignition is already built- no one makes a billet distributor for the V6. I have checked extensively. Just going to use the trusty ol A/C delco modules (they are workhorses) I am just concerned about spark scatter at higher r's, but 7000 should be fine on the stock distrubutor as long as things are in good condition (which they are top notch presently) Yes I will have to get custom prom work down- I already have the guys- Don & Kevin Lorenson(Sp?) aka Dyno Don & Kevin91z.
Edit- Valve clearance will be what ever Ross can give me I''ll give thenm the deck height of the block and the rod length & disired CR at 0 deck clearence- we'll see at that point if they recommend valve pockets on the custom pistons- they're the experts. Ross is close to me, I can go there directly and sit down with a rep to figure out if I can use 0 deck height(or what my options are. I don't see a problem with that on a 10.3 cr motor

AM91Camaro_RS

you won't have any clearance problems. that's the same cam i am running and i have domed pistons running higher compression than you are looking for and i have no problems with it. i don't see this cam making power into the 7000 rpm range, if you know how to get power out of it that high, share please. if you want someone to test your intake manifold with this cam setup....let me know.

which ecm do you have? i have tried several programs to scan my 730 $88 mask and have had no luck so far.

lee7, do you never read other posts? "Sounds perfect, somebody is finally doing a decent NA build up on these engines!" i'm not saying anything bad to good2.8....goodluck to him...but lee7, i have an extensively modified N/A 60* v6. agood2.8 is not the first one to go this far.

Doward

Couple of things I'd like to bring up -

Alan got the first one

Secondly, it's been my understanding that a wider lobe seperation tends to decrease overlap, and give a much broader (albeit slightly lower) powerband. A narrower lobe seperation tends to give you slightly more power, but 'peakier'.

You're actually opposite - wider LSA is *generally - NOT ALWAYS* = less overlap = better low end performance. Remember fluid dynamics - a little more overlap is better in the upper end, when you're starting to have to overcome air's inertia.

The 112 will give you a good wide powerband, though I *personally* would want a cam more suited to something like -

220/230º @ .050" lift (yes, even with the 1.6 rockers - which do, in fact, increase the duration of actual valve opening)

Around a 114º LSA. With your compression, your powerband would be from 3k-6300 or so. With the correct gearing, I think you'd find that 2nd and 3rd gear would REALLY be your friend.

Daily driver, though, I'd stay around your current cam specs.

*Keep in mind, Alan, the extra displacement in Dean's ride is going to make the cam slightly tamer in his engine.*

Good call on the forged 6" rods. No complaints there.

I would go with 22pph injectors though... I'd like a little more headroom in fuel delivery in that dept.

Other than that, sounds solid. Keep in mind, this is all just one guy's opinion.

AGood2.8

No offence, but your bottom end isn't set up to pull high rpm's. Too short of rods, too heavy of assembly- Things have to be married to go a certain rpm range.

ex. heads will flow the cfm required for those rpm's
Intake will run 3000 to 7000
cam will run 3000 to 7000
exahust will handle 7000 no problem
bottom end (lightness- most important!)will spin 7000 no problem (actually over 8000 as light, strong, and balanced eventhing will be. and hold together realiably)
Driveline is smooth as silk- no vibrations coming from there to hamper rpm climb.

Your bottom end from what I know is mostly stock configuration and weights. Aren't you assembies just forged high compression slightly-over pistons, with stock rods? Longer rods help topend, but lag lowend. Also help prevent predetonation. By the way, what octane do you have to run? With 10.75cr You must ping like heck on pump gas.

as for the computer stuff- thats not my expertise, I have actually three different experts that say it can handle what I want to do with it- and they can make adjustments no problem.

AGood2.8

Just got off the phne with pop, he's the motorman of the family still (I still call him for advice sometimes even at 37) You are correct about the overlap. More overlap helps midrange power. Less overlap will broaden the power curve more evenly( Better power through a brader range) rather than strong power at a short range. That is why I want the wider specs to keep it more streetable power from like 3-6000 instead of a say 4-5000 stronger but narrower range. I remember he told me awhile back to keep it less overlap for vaccucm as well, especially on an injection motor that runs of f of sensors. Otherwise I'll have to run an auxillery pump for the brakes, etc like I do on the Vette. The higher the lift, the more separation needed to keep the ratioof overlap.

Oh well, see thats why I posted he- I learn things too- I'm just the suspension expert of the family (And driver ) Kindof been just told what "to do" with engines all my life rather than studing and learning for myself. There's alot I do know, but alot I don't either. Thank you Doward. I still have my spec right to what I want, just had things *** backwards as to what does what when it comes to changing cam profiles.

Dean

Dale

iTrader: (12)

AM91, your right, I did a small search, and havent found anything to work on the 90-92 systems. Agood is running a 87 that has a different ECM system them us.

Agood, I figured you had already done ignition. Do you have the msd6a (I think thats it) system? If so, that might help a little bit.

Sucks nobody makes a "better" distrib for us. What about maybe a s10 truck system or something?? I bet it could be spliced in and made to work.

Lee7

all i know is that you run like low 15's or high 14's, havent really heard much on your setup. You should make a thread about it.

AM91Camaro_RS

you're right, there's nothing special about my bottom end. the weight isn't really what keeps it from turning higher rpms though, it'd just get there slower. and, yes, your heads probably do flow better but i am planning to do some more port work on my at some point. your headers are bigger too which would be nice, mine, although production headers, are small. i run 93 octane pump gas. it does spark knock a little sometimes but not very much or very often. sometimes i'll put a few gallons of 114 in it at the track too, no spark knock then. i've never noticed spark knock while the pedal is on the floor either. i love the low end that my motor has though, my car, on the street, will spin the tires half way through second gear and will pull out of the 'burnout' without bogging. they don't spin with my new slicks though...

lee7, remember my post '3.1 on the dyno'? here it is https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...light=3.1+dyno look down to my post on 9/18/03, my motor specs are right there. now, add underdrive pullies and 2200 stall torque convertor to that also. now has pulled a 2.12 60' on street tires before the convertor too. i'm lookin for 2.00 or 1.9Xs next time i go to the track!

vortex

Doward here...

Yeah, I rode in Am91's camaro. Extremely good pull, starting around 2600 all the way to 6k+

Comes on very strong in the middle/upper rpm range.

Actually Dean, the weight reduction helps you spin to a certain rpm quicker. The reduced weight also helps the engine live at those rpms - nothing wrong with the stock crank/rods at 7k. the problem is the valvetrain - you will often get valve float well before you've reached 7k. Then there's the little thing of the rev limiter

AM91, no worries man. You've got a powerful 6 on your hands - you just need to lighten her a little, and get a stick in it!!

AGood2.8

Rod angle is where he hurts- the cam will pull it to 7k but the bottom end won't. Stock rods will hold together at 7k, but will rob more power at 7K than will longer rods. I was even looking at 6.1 or possibly even 6.2" custom Carillo rods- but cost is too rediculous. My tq convertor is lighter, Underdrive pulleys, crank, and dampner all will have less rotation mass as well as the rods&pistons and will spin higher. The only thing helping AM91 go as high as he is is the 4.10's. I plan to pull those r's with 3.23's. Without what I have mentioned, there would be too much strain to continually rev that high and hold together with this tall of gears.
But also remember, I will be spending a heck of alot more money than he did to get there.

Am91, my headers are the same diameter as yours- I know- I own hookers also. The Hookers are actually better tuned(longer equal length primaries) However the Stainless steel (coated too) PF&E's will retain the exhaust heat and scavange better. Its about an equal tossup bettween them. Both will work fine for anything we throw at them.

AM91Camaro_RS

i thought your headers had 2.5" collectors. mine are 2.25". what size exhaust are you running/going to run?

AGood2.8

They are 1 3/8" primaires (same as Hookers) into 2" y-pipe tubes (hookers are 2 1/4") then merge together into 2 1/2" before the cat. Here I will put an electric cutout split , Then 2 1/2" cat in-and-out and stainless steel 2 1/2" to the rear to help retain the heat all the way back I really think your 3" is hurting you. The exhaust gases are expanding too much and slowing.( Just a personal opinion) Have you tried running the headers uncorked? I am certain that would help you.

AM91Camaro_RS

i have run full exhaust with factory type muffler, i have taken the muffler off and run the exhaust all the way to the back through the 3", and i have run open headers. not tooooo much difference. full exhaust verse the other two is pretty much what it comes to.