squirrelybird

talking a 91 firebird, 3.1, auto, about 150,000 miles.

i just replaced the oil pressure sending unit (haha should have done it a LONG time ago)...so now i finally have an oil pressure guage that reads correctly (i assume) , and i was just wondering what the pressure range should be on a car like mine? what pressure is good, normal, bad, etc. cold, warm??

thanks,
evan

AM91Camaro_RS

i wouldn't want it to read any less than 30psi and i don't think there is such a thing as too much oil pressure, is there (100psi could be kinda pointless but isn't gonna hurt it). what is your guage showing now? mine normally shows around 40 or so at idle and about 60 anywhere off idle.

ede

10psi per 1000 rpm is acceptable

Doward

ede is correct - 10 psi per 1000 rpm.

If you're reading like 20 psi, and it doesn't go up much while you rev, you have loose bearing tolerances - you'll be replacing the bearings before too long.

I don't know if there's such a thing as 'too much' oil pressure... but I know I'd freak if I pegged the gauge.

Gumby

I could be wrong but with enough pressure and thick enough oil isn't there a change of [ not sure what you call it] but the oil would be pushing so hard coming out of the oil holes it could fill the void so well on one side but make it dry/ hit on the other / make a hot spot. With it spinning of course it would get some oil but it almost forces it out of round.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

1991 3.1 with almost 200k

currently has 10w30 in it (winter time here, brrr)

Idle cold, 15-20pis
idle warm, 35-40

moves around while driving.

devianb

Here is how it is for me.

60 psi: First 10 minutes upon start up
40 psi: Normal Driving
20 psi: idle

If I drive my car in WOT for a little while, psi goes up to 50 psi.

Luder[PAK9]

Here's mine. 224k miles.

Driving: 60
Idle Cool: 40
Idle Hot: 25

NHRATA01

Here's mine, winter numbers - temp below freezing at cold start

1989 2.8 with 115k miles, M1 5w-30

Cold start - ~ 70 at idle, pegged with any throttle

Warmed up - Just under 40 at idle, 60 at 2000 cruise.

squirrelybird

sounds like im just fine. when cold, im around 60. when it warms up 30-40, up to 60ish with the go pedal down.

thanks for all the replies!

p.s....last couple oil changes, i used 10w40, instead of 10w30. the way i understand it, it just means something about how it flows when cold. im in sunny FL, so that should be fine all year, right?

thanks,
evan

Dale

iTrader: (12)

warm flordia, 10w40 should be fine year around.

The colder it gets, the some-what thinner you want to get. I run 30 at winter (20-60deg), 40 at summer (70-105deg).

TomP

+261,000 miles...

driving when cold, ~ 60 psi
idling when cold, ~ 20 psi

driving when hot, ~ 40 psi
idling when hot, 0 psi.

Yep... 0 psi... barely nudges the needle at all. And it's an aftermarket mechanical gauge, too, so I know there's no sender problem. I probably just have Huge bearing clearances... but it's been that way for about 5 years, so I'm not complaining too much.

I run 10w30 all year round, out here in NJ.

eddie jr

Quick question about oil - a lot of people here are talking about 10w30 and even the thicker 10w40. I was told the 2.8's take 5w30 standard. Is this not correct??

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

As far as my manual and oil cap says it's 5w30 for the 2.8L. Now see I need an issue solved. If you have no oil leaks at all why would you add 10w30? I've been running 5w30 practically since I have had my car and I think it runs better with it although the rear main seal (I assume) leaks a little. My dad tried to tell me that thicker oil makes the compression go up. How can thicker oil make the compression go up? More oil on the cylinder walls makes the seal around the rings better? Seems to me if that were true you would just burn more oil between changes.

I think it sounds like a compromise between fuel economy and if you're leaking oil, the oil left on the ground. If you add thinner oil you may get better gas mileage but leak more. I just figure if your car is not spurting oil like a champ then the recommended viscosity should be used. I'm also using Mobil 1 5w30 the synthetic stuff, I used to use the MaxLife 5w30 so who knows. I guess in a new engine synthetic is better if you have been using it since day one.

By the way what brands of oil do you guys use? Anyone use one brand religiously?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I've never heard that compression is better with thicker oil.

I do have oil leaks on my engine

GM (oil cap/owners manual) recommends 5w30 on almost every car that comes out. They have to pick an oil thats "ok" for every use, climate that car could be in. I can tell you hot states like Arizona, Cali, New Mexico, Texas, Florida, 5w30 wont cut it very well, it will brake down easy/fast. But in colder climates like Canada, Maine, etc, it works fine.

Also, a higher milage engine should use thicker oil because of more wear on parts, helps seal the gaps (maybe thats where the compression thing comes in?)

I use Valvoline myself, I have been told to stay away from Quaker State, and Pennzoil (dont rem why) but everyone has their own opinions

Gumby

I run 20-50 all year round, in everything I own.
I can care less about a little start up wear. I rather have the protection I need when pull full RPM's down the road.

Gumby

a good thread worth reading. Might as well read it rather then re-hash the same BS.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=211743

vortex

Doward here...


V runs Mobil 1 synthetic all the time... religiously does a motor flush, fills with Mobil 1, and puts a can of Engine Restore in at EACH OIL CHANGE. I bet his 5.0 still looks like brand new inside.

I just made the change to Mobil 1 myself, with teh 3.1.

Gumby

Sorry, I posted the wrong thread. Been to many oil topics latley.


Best Weight Oil For My Performance Engine?

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=214105

Gumby

Of course both of them threads were good, along with this one since you mention restore.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=213256

Gumby

Valvoline is good oil.

Quaker State is some goopy crap. Now of course John Force runs it but for only a 1/4 mile. In school it was the first thing we learned. Don't put quaker state in any small or motorcycle engine.

It turns into black nasty goopy honey in the bottom of the pan.

vortex

To stand up for QS... they do have a new revised formula now... i've heard its better... im sure its still not up to my standards.. but better than the unknowns like walmart...
For those of you who have Discount Auto (just bought out by Advance) their cheap oil was acutally re-badged valvoline.. just a lil insider trading info.

BitchinRS

280,000 miles on my 3.1L I run 15w40 year round. It doesn't leak and only has the slitghest wif of smoke on startup.


Now for oil presure I think my gauge is screwed. Mine doesn't have numbers on it just 3 hash marks. It is all ways in the middle. Never goes up and never goes down. Do you guys know if this is a gauge problem or do I have other issues to deal with.

I am looking replacing the engine soon. It still runs strong but @ 280K and driving 200 miles 5 days a week it makes me nervous.

Gumby

You know one oil I never hear mentioned is Exxon Super Flow.

The should defiantly know oil.:lala:

[Ill have to double post this n see why]

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

Is engine restore or any additive for that matter good to add? Or would it be used in an engine that is totally going downhill? The additives like engine restore look good but I wouldn't like to try them and find out they created more problems than corrected. Well this whole line of questions at least for me would be eliminated if Santa would leave a nice 350 under the tree

TomP

I've thought of using Engine Restorer, but they're not clear about one thing- they say to "add to oil!" But in what way? Should I drain some oil out first, so after I add the Engine Restorer, the crankcase is full? Or do they want me to overfill the crankcase?

I moved to 10w30 because I had what I thought was a rear main leak back in 1994. My dad suggested I use 10w30 instead of 5w30, and it seemed to slow the leak up. Years later I found out it was the distributor seal that caused my leak. I just stayed with the 10w30... might as well.

<b>And remember, all 82-92 2.8/3.1 should use the AC (or equivilant) PF52 "long" oil filter!!</b> No PF-47's! You'll need an extra 1/2 quart of oil though, pour it into the filter before you spin it on.

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

I thought my leak was the distributor after I read a post by you Tom. Even after I replaced the distributor shaft o-ring and gasket it still leaks a little. See I noticed oil just ever so slowly collecting at the hole in the torque converter cover. I've never been able to pull the cover off to look and see if the oil is indeed leaking from the rear because of one stubborn bolt. Thing is I bet that is where it's leaking from since the oil probably collects in the cover then drips out. Looks easy to change the rear main seal if you didn't have to move the transmission.

As for the PF-52 I use the UPF-52 with the synthetic media inside and the teflon sealing surface. I never knew you should add 1/2 quart extra. I check once I change it and it always seems up to level on the dipstick.

vortex

You either add to your system at any time, or during an oil change.. either way, it doesnt overfill your crankcase, because 1) its not even half a quart and 2) it is basically the consistance of sugar water, and it fills the scratches in cylinder walls. When we tear into my engine for the blown 331 stroker build-up (project name to come soon) we will see how well it works... I got the car with 49K miles on it and like Doward said, use a motor flush, mobil 1, and engine restore on every oil change.. it hit 76K before i got my daily driver... maybe it did good by it..

TomP

UPF-52? Is that made by AC? For engine's spec'd with the PF47 filter, the owner's manual says to put in 4 quarts of oil (1981 to 1987). For engine's spec'd for the PF52 (started in 1988), the guidelines say 4 1/2 quarts.

So if you've been putting 4.5 quarts in, you're all set. Sorry, I should've been more specific. But it is the filter that soaks up that extra 1/2 quart of oil, not the crankcase.

Someone moving from the small PF47 to the larger PF52 would need to start putting 4.5 quarts in. In fact, after they started the motor (to get the oil flowing), if they checked the dipstick after shutting the engine down, they'd see that they were 1/2 quart low.

Vortex, sugar water, huh? That's good to know; I figured it was a heavy oil. Did you put in the 6cyl can or the 4cyl? I don't dare try motor flush with over 260,000 miles on the engine... in fact, I bought a can about 10 years ago, and was scared to use it. That can is still in the garage I think, gathering dust. Didn't want it to flush crud out and clog up my oil pickup!

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

Tom: The UPF-52 is part #25322836 $6.09 from GMPartsdirect, and it is made by AC. The name is their "Ultraguard Gold Filter". AC used to list the three levels of oil filters they had on their site each a different color, blue, silver, black. The one I get is UPF-52 and black. The guy who owned the car before me was using that PF47 thing and when I looked up the correct filter I was thinking, hmm is this right? I wonder what the effect if any, of however many miles he used that PF-47 on the engine.

Here is a link to the AC site about the filter.

http://www.acdelco.com/html/pi_filt_oil_gold_main.htm

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

By the way, anyone ever done a rear main seal in their driveway? I think mine is a one piece which I've heard makes it easier.

vortex

done many.. and yes.. one piece's are a lot easier... you still have to pull the tranny, but once its out of the way, use your favorite seal pulling device, and simply line the new one up and use a piece of wood or a large socket to tap it in place.. being careful not to tap one side in too much and bend the seal.. i feel like im forgetting something...

eddie jr

TomP - Are you saying that the PF47 is the filter called for for 81 - 87 but you should be using the PF52 for all 3rd gens??? I am not even sure which filter I use for my 85 2.8 but I jsut grab the one that the book calls for in the local auto store. So are you saying this is wrong even if it calls for it?? Is the PF47 inadequate??

thanks.

Gumby

Dude,

Watch your tone when talking to Tom. Your questions sound very set up and one sided. He never said the book was wrong. There is just a better option.

The filter he mentions is just a bigger filter that will fit our cars. And a bigger filter is better.

Most cars have the same thread and filter size. If you looked around you would be surprised how many of them share the same filter. Just like spark plugs. If there was enough room I'm sure there are a few more even bigger ones.

vortex

I may be reading it wrong but i think people are saying the same thing, just differently...

Yes there are 2 filters that fit the 3.1s.. and there for 2.8s?

The stock one that is looked up in any book is the short compact one to allow for clearances... however on a lot of vehicles they have the same filter in a longer version to hold more oil/filter material... It is a different part number, and if you would like, i can get it for you.

eddie jr

Gumby - Let's not get on people's case here....believe me, the intent was just a harmless question because I don't understand. It could be that maybe the info that he has is that it is a misprint or recommendations from professionals etc etc in which case I would think it would be fair to say the book is inaccurate (can't necessarily believe everthing in writing, right?). That was the angle I was coming from. Thank-you for pointing that out though because if that is the way you interpreted it then I know it came across wrong. It is just that the impression that I got from these posts was that we should not be using the small filter because it is not adequate. As I mentioned, I don't know which one I use off-hand (ie. which is listed in the book at the store I go to) but I am confused as to why they would list an inadequate one and hence the question.

So is the small one definitely inadequate, is that the idea??

thanks.

67 Camaro 88

I just put a mechanical gauge in my 3.4l...55psi idle (6-700rpm) when it's warm. It almost peggs out the 100psi guage when its up around redline. Crazy.

-Bud

TomP

I think it could've been taken either way- thanks Gumby & all!

But here's the deal. GM used to spec the PF-47 for the 2.8. Then, Magically, they decided to start using the PF-51 for the 2.8, and carried that into the 3.1.

You won't find a PF-51 anymore. It's been replaced by the PF52, which has an anti-drainback valve.

The idea of using the larger PF-52 is simple; you get twice the filter medium to filter your oil with. So that should mean you'll have cleaner oil after 3,000 miles then you would with a PF47. And since the price between the two is a couple cents- or maybe even the same price- there's no real reason to use the old PF-47. And you also get to put that extra 1/2 quart of oil in the motor (4.5 quarts instead of 4.0 quarts)... I think that helps out with heat, not sure what else- anyone?

I dug up this info by flipping thru filter catalogs at stores (in the early days of the 'net), and online "web" catalogs. In fact, you can see this for yourself- go to http://www.acdelco.com , and click on the online parts catalog for automotive parts. Look up a 1987 Chevy Camaro, 2.8, category=engine, subcategory=filter, oil. You'll see it says "PF47". Now do the same lookup for a 1988 Camaro 2.8- it'll say PF52 (and also UPF52)!

So apparently GM decided, for whatever reason, to start using the PF52 on the 2.8 and 3.1. I'm certainly not going to argue!

(The PF47 was also used on the 4 cylinder 2.5's in the 82-85 f-bodies...)

Gumby

eddie jr, its no big deal. I just didn't like how you phrased your questions at Tom. I'm sure you meant noting buy it but it rubbed me the wrong way. Some people on this boar deserve crap sometimes [me included] some people are squeaky clean.
AKA TomP

michael

iTrader: (1)

well i got my car from my grandmother when i was 15 she always used 5w30 penz crap in it as soon as i got it castrol gtx 10w40 went in its ran long strong and curently is still running long and strong and will outlive all third gens on original motor i guarantee it :lala: last month i rolled it over again to a wapping 500,000 currently its at 504,7## doesn't leak oil only thing is the normal seals smoke at start up as to pressure cold idle is about 40 warm about the same and runnning say 65 down the hwy its right under the 80 line. Only major work done to the car doesn't have anything to do with the motor its had 4 transmissions put in 3 of those were a week apart. Tip don't get junk yard transmissions. When i got my car it had 350,000 on it its been in every state except alaska and hawaii. I've since rolled it twice. everyone tells me i should write to chevy they'd want the motor back for tests.
i think what keeps it from leaking any oil is that penz crap that was ran it it a good part of its life caked up the inside so no oil can leak out haha. the only constant repair i've benn doing on it is ac compressors one a year do to auto zones ****.another tip don't buy the 99.00 compressor at autozone. the clutches lock up

JoshDT91

iTrader: (1)

My only question was where was someone driving in that car? Now as far as I have researched the distance from the Earth to the Moon is 238,866.78 miles give or take. So that car could have been sent to the Moon and back if given a proper heat shield for re-entry. The car has gone on average about 31,500 miles a year is that right? Michael what do you do to put that much mileage on the car? Do you change the oil every 3,000 miles? I wish my engine could last that long and mine is almost at 169k.

Doward

Since I work at AZ (and know how that works) the only thing I can say, is if you buy the cheap-*** lowest reman'd unit, you have to expect it to be a POS.

If you buy the cheapest, you get the cheapest.

Next time you replace it, tell them to get you p/n AC-Delco 15-20184, or Factory Air p/n 58941.

You won't be replacing that brand new AC Delco anytime soon.

michael

iTrader: (1)

in reply to joshdt91
my grandfather does computer programing for airplanes and is always getting transfered to other states therefore they had to move and the car would go with them all my grandmother ever did was travel. the car has been from new jersey to tx cal to tx mil to tx and back several times its been from canada to tx back to canada and then back to tx so at one time or another its been to every state but alaska and hawaii and many states several times when my grandmother gave it to me when i was 15 which would have been in 96 if i'm figuring correct it had 350 some odd thousand miles on it since i
ve rolled it over to 400,00 then again last month to 500,000
the trip doesn't work so i have to figure what my milege is by what the odo says which is average 250-315 out of a tank depending on if i dog on it alot or not haha the only things i have replaced are of course brakes, tires, several water pumps (don't buy rebuilt) then new donesn't last more then 2-3 years ac stuff never evap thank ***. radiator once trans 3 times then once more by my grandmother which was the first one. i recieved the car with a slipping 3rd to 4th that lasted 3 years till it shattered the flywheel then later trashed the torque converter till finally 6 months later **** canned completeley which lead me to the salvage yard for my one trans a week till i rebuilt the 2nd to make it the 3rd one i replaced. 2 alternators spark plugs dist caprotor wires oil every 3,000 trans service every 36,000 fis and runrite every 36,000 2 maf's 2nd was an *** rapping since it wasn't the problem that nice little 10 amp fuse on the pass fender was the check engine light culprit but you can't return electrical components damn one starter if it counts towards a repair several wheel studs for my bolt on spacers once those nuts are put on don't take them off the studs strip with and impact or snap off they suck. and where i bought them from it seems that oem replacement studs are way different so i have to keep going back to where i got the spacers to get studs.

BitchinRS

HEHEH. I think mine may make it there and back again. Currently 280K and about an additional 52K every year. Still runs strong, and the heads have never been removed from the engine. That may change though. All though I'm afraid to do any thing to the internals and mess some thing else up by putting nice strong un-worn parts in there. Maybe just a full rebuild. I try to keep up on the regular maint. but when you drive 200 miles a day 5 days a week some times you say "screw it, it can get an oil change next week!"

Gumby

These 60* motors will run forever with proper care. Or a good 2-300,000 with no service and lots of abuse.

hard part is doing all them miles. There was a thing a while back about a guy who got a new truck by giving his to GM. Guy drove so much he had to have his oil changed every week.

I think the mileage rules got outs the window on hi mileage cars.
Oil is only good for about 6 months tops. If I went by the 3,000 miles Id change the oil in my bikes every 3 years. But I change it twice a summer no matter what.

The hi mile cars that get oil changes once a month or less are bathed in new oil all the time and never see the kind of oil a car that only does 700 miles a month and doesn't get changed till that 3,000 mark. The amount of acids, water n other crap that build up from the short trips is the killer of the oil and engine.

TomP

Yipe; I've been spanked... +500,000 miles, and +280,000 miles? I'm "just" at 262,000 miles...

Michael, you said "fis and runrite every 36,000"- what's fis and Runrite? Does FIS mean Fuel injector service... and if so, what's done? A pressurized cleaning thru the schraeder valve?

michael

iTrader: (1)

yes fis is Fuel Injector Service
run rite is a high potent 4 step chemical cleaner that is can through the vac system while the motor is running to break up all the carbon crap in the intake and valve terain
unless you have access to the equip or friends that work at pepboys it can get rather expensive.
69.99 for fis and 89.99 for run rite
tom you are correct on the fis you disconnect the fuel pump connect the can to the fuel rail and start the car the can is i believe 20 oz size of spray paint you can buy the can over the counter at pepboys if you sign up for apd account say you have joe smoes auto shop fill out a piece of paper the can costs like 7.99 depending on how rich your car runs it can run off the can for 5-30 mins sometimes more mine runs for about 20-25 just off the can at idle. now the runrite you can buy it for 15.99 through apd at pepboys also its the labor that cost of course i worked there for a year and a half