minigunz

is it really feasible? or MUST you have a v8's torque? im simply wondering if having a lighter front end will give you an edge. ive always heard that v6's handle better, but v8's pull away out of the corners. so of course the engine would have to be modded to extract every last bit of torque from these little six cylinders, but I think it could be done

opinions?

minigunz

on a second note, I don't think turbo setups would work very well because the v6 doesent have very much exhaust gas volume, resulting in slight boost lag- in a road race, you need all the power all at once. centrifugal supercharger? in space of old smog pump?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Supercharger would work well but a properly matched turbo will work great also if done correctly. My gt3582 spools fast when i play on the streets! If you incorperated a road race antilag system and didnt kill the engine and turbo it would be a blast. Dont get confused with a drag racing anti lag system as that is much different then one set up for road racing. Its very very hard on the turbo and engine when its set up for road racing.

minigunz

true, but another reason I say supercharged, is less heat, no need for intercooling- less underhood heat as well. nothing crazy, head port, cam, exhaust, tune, maybe even stroke the bottom end (is that even possible on a 3.1?) high comp. pistons and such. it would handle well though right?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

When it would come to road racing i would think you would still want to inter-cool the charged air either it be from a centrifugal or a screw. Ive seen my intake temps on my 3800 gtp on hp tuners and its amazing that it goes as fast as it does without massive spark knock. Intake temps do get pretty high on superchargers and that's just from a 1/4 mile race, so im sure road racing would be a lot worse due to heat sink.

But you are right that there wouldnt be so much heat under that hood compared to a traditional turbo set up.

A boosted engine, either a turbo or SC, can hold up with stock guts. I'm proof. Long as the tune is dead on and your keeping a huge eye on spark knock you would be fine. BUT if you have the cash to build it up then that is even better! I'm just a poor man racing so I never got into the guts of my engine. Minus my horrid drive train loss i would bet on the crank Im pushing 350 tq and 300 hp all day on 13 psi of boost. Believe me I've beat the snot out of the car on the track an off this year. I just did a comp test on the engine as im building new headers at the moment.... the compression is still 140-150 psi though all cylinders which is almost the same as it was pre-turboing the engine. The 60* are pretty stout. Main thing that needs looked at is the ring gap if going boosted but else then that its a good ole engine.

project89

iTrader: (1)

gt3582 , 260 or 272 cam , 2,500 stall with a built auto , will never have lag
gt3582 272 cam 5 speed and 3:73's will never lag

project89

iTrader: (1)

if u want the best road racing v6
3.4 block , 2.8 crank with custom pistons , 278/282 cam , 64 or 66mm turbo 3,500 stall behind auto with a 3:42

or t5 with a 4:11/4:56 gear depending if its a long or short track

that combo will turn over 8,800 rpms, it will make lots of hp but lack the tq , for short track stuff id rather build the 3.1 or 3.4 keep the rpms low and use the added tq to get me out of the corners

minigunz

im definitely going for torque, I don't care how balanced an engine is, the faster it rotates, the shorter the life. im kind of afraid of turbos, I don't have much experience with them to begin with, and the centrifugal setup would be lighter anyways wouldn't it? a lot less complicated? I just like the idea for me because I could tuck it away and only the trained eye would know its not a factory part. how much boost is really healthy without risking anything? or is that a matter of how much your s/c is capable of?

minigunz

I also thought about grafting an eaton m90 s/c onto factory intake. that would be interesting...

project89

iTrader: (1)

boost dont matter, its how u tune it that matters.
an m90 would be a waste of time for this as u would not make as much power as a turbo or centrifical blower.

turbo is the cheapest route , and easiest

check out this thread
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/6...ise-3-4-a.html

he went threw alot of custom machined parts to get that on there

with thew turbo u can modify the factory y pipe to get the turbo on to get u started then upgrade parts of the system down the road

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Simplicity is arguable, in my mind a turbo setup is easier to fabricate and an all around better system for overall performance. But you can't beat the on demand power a roots blower will give you. A centrifugal blower has benefits of both worlds. These motors aren't known for their torque, speed is where it's at with smaller motors and these have plenty of headroom. As far as safety goes I put 15psi and a 200 shot of nitrous through an anemic 2.8 before it said uncle, but I split the crank on another motor at just 15psi with anti-lag so take your guess. Some will tell you the block will break around 400hp but many people have been there without problems, I'd say 13-15 is fine on most.

minigunz

so do I engineer it to run high rpm's- radica cam, head/intake port/polish and build a tranny with stall? or do I keep it low, give it stroke and compression for torque? whats the biggest number for torque you guys have seen? I still like centrifugal setup. lot less tubing, welding, etc. less heat to. im a stickler about heat. enough so to mount a turbo in the rear. (which is apparently a big waste to you guys)


what do you guys think about handling? do the roll bars and call it a day?
or install frame tensioners (its a t-top car) and strut tower brace- the whole nine yards

minigunz

don't have any experience with the bottle,done a little research though. how long would say, a 15 pounder last you?

Fallen2603

FALSE. The life of your engine will depend upon the balance of the rotating-assmebly, the piston speed and the resulting forces upon it, quality of the build and its components, and the tune you have on it.

That's a VERY general list of what will affect your engine's lifespan.

project89

iTrader: (1)

turbos build massive amounts of tq , my v6 car everytime its been on the dyno has made massive tq numbers usually in the range of 100-145 more then hp
i.e 300 wheel hp and 411 wheel ftlbs

the first dyno was 270hp/370rwtq

now its more like 380/500

ur going to need to do the suspension , frame connectors and cage specially if u plan on racing the thing on the track


mounting a turbo in the rear will be a huge waste for road racing ]
the main reason rear mount turbos came out was a comprimise of price and to get past emmisions stuff since techincally u dont alter the ex system infront of the cat


while rmt can work pretty well this is not the application for that kind of setup

rpm kills valve springs not the rotating assembly as long as its properly balanced. once u start getting into high rpm's things become costly because u need lighter wieght valve train compnents, stronger springs etc etc

i spin my poor lil 3.1 to the moon with no distress but its properly setup to do so , take a bone stock engine and try what i do with mine and it will blow up if it ever gets to rpm, it prolly wont though as the valves will start floating at about 6k and it will never rev up

minigunz

then why does a cbr 600rr engine, or a formula 1 engine have 20x shorter life span than say a diesel engine?

F1 engine redline = 18,000+ rpm they last 1 race before they are retired

cbr600rr redline = 16,000 (IIRC) maybe 30,000 miles if its ridden hard?

cummins turbo diesel redline = 3,500 rpm.. ive seen them last for a million miles....

I would think a diesel engine with such a long stroke is balanced better than something else with such a short stroke (although both are balanced well, else they wouldn't leave the factory)

wont a v6 that has to rev to 8,000 rpm struggle to make power down low?
wouldn't this affect driveability?

minigunz

P.S. im looking into nitrous..... but at $50 per 10lb bottle..... don't know if I like that...

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Rpms to a certain point will not hurt the engine if done properly. I shift mine at 6200rpm every time at the track and have done it a lot. I haven't put on 10k miles like that but i've put a good 300 passes at the track this year alone. That's stock else then the new valve springs and shimmed oil pump.

Think of it this way also. A nitro funny car is rebuilt each and every pass. Many super pro racers i know rebuild it each season. Thats only a 1000hp car after about 50-100 passes. Its mainly because rather to rebuild it when you can then to have it break when you cant afford it too.

A V6 turbo that can produce a great tq curve down low... 3500+rpm and make big Hp up top, 4000-6500+rpm is a good race car. Exspecially for drag racing but road racing also.

Any car that you set up for racing like that can have its drive ability issues.

Fallen2603

Your asking why do race engines have shorter lifespans than a diesel engine?

How about this: An engine built for racing is actually used in racing. An engine that is actually used in racing will suffer more wear and tear than an engine that isn't.

Or: Diesel engines usually contain stronger components than a factory gasoline engine, but how how often do you see a diesel engine used, that redlines at 3500RPM, in a road race event?

If you're going to build an engine for racing, and you actually race, it's not going to last as long compared to the same engine that's not used in a road race.

Generally, longer stroke engine, by it's design, usually places more force on the sidewalls of the pistons which in turn will cause more cylinder-bore wear than an over-bored engine configuration. This event is usually exacerbated by extended times at high RPM. This is one of the reasons that over-stroke motors aren't revved as high.

Again, for the most part, these are generalities.

minigunz

I cant have driveability issues, I plan on still driving the car on the weekends(should've said that at start of thread, my apologies)- also another reason I think it would be for me better to keep the power down low, but you guys say this is possible with a turbo? ok, aside from temp issues under hood, and aside from all the fabwork needed, this will require massive amounts of prom tuning- which I know NOTHING about- above said also applies to centrifugal s/c setup, im assuming you guys still recommend turbo? is there a way I can mount it to keep the heat down? recommended turbo for quick boost?

Fallen2603

To help keep heat down, you could ceramic-coat and heat-wrap as much of the turbo system as you can. A turbo blanket wouldn't hurt either.

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

Swap in a new DI 3.6 V6 if you are wanting a lightweight, powerful V6 "road racecar". By the first turn you will be passed by everyone and their mom that has a lightweight LSX engine.

You see guys in Miatas on roadcourses... They are there to have fun, slow or fast, doesnt really matter. Sticky tires and good suspension is higher up on the list of things to do than builing an oddball, vintage V6..

A stock, reliable engine will allow you to enjoy roadracing as a newbie. Worrying about your new valvesprings and custom cam foes not allow enjoyment ,

minigunz

I had an LS engine once..... lost it in a fight with the owner of the shop I worked at... it was a built 4.8 I was planning a rmnt turbo setup for.... oh well...

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

Cool story. They are $200-400 complete. Buy/install/race. 2 laps in you won't be worrying about V6 weight bias.. That should be years later after many sets of tires lol

minigunz

easier said than done.

minigunz

I miss that engine, it looked really good when I was ready to put it in. put a lot of elbow grease into it... I was lacking a harness, the tranny and mounts... so basically everything but the engine lol.

minigunz

after further review of the play, ive decided to definetly stick to and rebuild the v6 powerplant, but with nitrous assistance, and a t5 swap to add to the "fun" factor. if I can ever wrap my head around the highly complicated task of tuning the OBD I system, ill eventually add turbos. but until then, -nitrous-

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Nitrous is illegal on a road course.

minigunz

Dammit.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Trust me, you don't need a lot of power to have fun on a road course. Raced 14hr of Sebring two weeks ago in a 2700lb car with 223whp, plenty of power to get in trouble with

AM91Camaro_RS

You can have a 1500hp v6 and it won't matter if you can't put it to the ground. study suspension and handling and work on that and then worry about hp. hp is the easy part.

minigunz

I just got a 454 out of a truck that a friend of mine was going to junk.... I said "hey is that a bbc?"

he goes "yea"

I said "....whacha doin with it...?"

he goes "oh idk, I think theres something wrong with it, that's what the guy said when I bought it... youre more than welcome to it if you want..."

now.... what do I do now?
I cant seem to shake the 'badass' factor of a bbc in a thirdgen...

project89

iTrader: (1)

U can use it. But just the headers alone are 750 to 1000 bucks

cagedruss

iTrader: (1)

I have been involved in Road Racing here in the PNW for about 12 years now. First question you have to ask yourself is "What Class is my car legal for".

Once you asked that then you can determine what you can or can't do to the car. Nothing more frustrated than going to the track and run in a class where all the cars are 600 plus HPs and are tube chassis'.

Most sanctioning bodies have Turbo/supercharger rules. If you run one then you get penalized by weight or bumped to the next class up. Running with GT cars or Vettes/Vipers isn't much fun.

Torque is everything. Ask anyone that drives a Miata, one slip up and you are done since the cars are ran at 100 percent to keep up the speed. Guys that run a BMW E30 have more power and torque and can make up ground and are faster.

If you want to run a V6, find a series and a class where you can have fun competing with other cars that are close to you in speed and weight. Running a Camaro/Firebird is a disadvantage due to the weight.

A proper LS1 will be more fun and reliable than a inducted V6 and less expensive. Even our local tube frame Road Race Stock Cars have jumped to the LS7's for the power to weight and are running considerably quicker lap times.

Keep us informed, I am curious to see what you decide.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

American Iron actually gives a break for a v6. 2400lb vs the v8 2700lb minimum weight. Then they go by HP to weight ratio for power limits. I think a turbo v6 thirgen would do fairly well against similar competition, but will still be out ran by the more modern IRS equipped cars in the corners.

I track e30's and race an e36 Chump car

cagedruss

iTrader: (1)

You can run a turbo with a v6 legally and still retain the 2400 min weight?