Blazin4x4

Does anybody know if afr competion heads are smog legal in CA?

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

I honestly doubt they can tell the difference without taking the motor apart

Jekyll & Hyde

They are just like the old heads, if they have the heat riser, they are 50 state legal. You can also call and confirm this at 877-892-8844.

Blazin4x4

Cool... I always thought the street heads were 50 state legal and the comp heads weren't but now I'm definetly going with the comp heads.

Guest

~$600 for ~10cfm doesnt make a whole lot of financial sense.

84z28350

It does when that 10cfm could mean the difference between kicking that foxbodys azz or having yours handed to you!

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

youd be better off spending that 600 on a kit and leaving him in the dust imho

izcain

Looks like those heads are awsome heads.... I think my next engine will have to try a set!

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Why not call them and ask? However, I think they are too new to have passed the CA smog certification already.

Blazin4x4

because I have to go outside to get cell phone reception.

Guest

According to the website, they're legal. D-250 or something like that. Probably an extension of the previous certification.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

That's just silly.

These heads are a whole new design, modeled after LS1 heads. They make amazing power. Take a look at the December, '06 Chevy High Performance.

Guest

Silly?
Silly is the highest power output 355 in our local club running ported exhaust (intake untouched) Trick Flow heads.
About the only thing similar to the LS1 heads is the bore spacing.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Well, far be it from me to agrue with such an expert, but the Eliminator series heads have LS1-style combustion chambers and runners. The whole concept behind them was to incorporate the advances inherent in LSX head design into a 23 degree small block head. At least, that's what Tom Mamo told me. But, how could the guy who designed the heads possibly know more than one such as yourself?

Guest

Well, take a look at some pictures sometime rather than the PR report from the AFR front man. The LS1 head and 'inherent' design cant be incorporated into a SBC head, mostly because of the configuration of the head bolts and pushrods. The port location and spacing is different, the shape is different, the height and width are totally different, the valve angle is different... I'm not seeing the similarity. As far as the combustion chamber, the LS1 was late to the party with heart shaped chambers so there's no news there either.

I'm no expert, but there are plenty of fast cars out there that dont run AFR heads. AFR isnt at the top of the heap, they're one of the group up there. There's a lot more to power than just a set of heads or a bunch of flow numbers... or magazine articles with sponsored parts.

formula350sd

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=madmax;3168692]Well, take a look at some pictures sometime rather than the PR report from the AFR front man. The LS1 head and 'inherent' design cant be incorporated into a SBC head, mostly because of the configuration of the head bolts and pushrods. The port location and spacing is different, the shape is different, the height and width are totally different, the valve angle is different... I'm not seeing the similarity. As far as the combustion chamber, the LS1 was late to the party with heart shaped chambers so there's no news there either.

[QUOTE]

I agree the closest thing your going to get to ls1 ports on a sbc are Vortec there a taller thinner port with raised runner and most likely the stepping stone in the design process of the ls1 head at least it would appear that way

84z28350

We need a emoticon of a smiley dude pissing up a rope...

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

airflowresearch.com

877-892-8844

Tom Mamo: DESIGNER of the Eliminator series heads

Now, maybe it's just me, but, when the guy who designed the heads tells me the heads incorporate a "dual quench" LS1-style combustion chamber design and "LS1-inspired" runners, I'm going to lean towards believeing him over some guy quoting incorrect information on here.

For example, your "600 for 10cfm" comment. The fact is, the worst the 195cc Eliminator stacks up against the old AFR 195cc is 17cfm more, at .200 lift. At .400 lift, it flows 28 cfm more, and at .500 lift, it flows 34cfm more.

This isn't a comparison between the Eliminator and a stock head, this is a comparison between the Eliminator and the old AFR 195, one of the better aftermarket heads available.

Here's a link to a test AFR did on a 383, comparing the Eliminator to the old 195s: http://www.airflowresearch.com/eliminator.php

Bottom line? More than 30 additional peak hp, and more than 20 additional lb/ft torque at peak. The Eliminator significantly outperforms the old 195 at every point in the graph.

Before you start sneering and shooting your mouth off, you ought to take the time to find out what the hell you're talking about.

Guest

Well obviously you cant read either, I didnt say a thing about the old AFR to the new AFR in regards to 10cfm. Maybe you should take the time to find out what the hell YOU are talking about first. If you can get that right, maybe I will listen to some guy who wants to revive a 2 month old post to start crap.

I could really care less if Tony designed the heads (as if I didnt already know that), there's no similarity to the LS1 besides his PR speech. If you want to continue to believe the salesman without looking for yourself, well... go right ahead. Your comments and belittling dont change the facts, nor will they change my mind. Keep it up and I'll post up some pictures and you can see for yourself how dissimilar they are.

Next thing you know, someone will tell me how a Corvette TPI is better because its based on a Corvette part.

rel3rd

iTrader: (1)

You mean it's not?







j/k...

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

[QUOTE=madmax;3169049]I could really care less if Tony designed the heads (as if I didnt already know that), there's no similarity to the LS1 besides his PR speech. If you want to continue to believe the salesman without looking for yourself, well... go right ahead. [QUOTE]

Tony says there is, you say there isn't. He designed the head, you sit in an online forum and claim he's a salesman delivering a PR speech.

I think I'll go with him.

Guest

Thats your option. Whats that old adage not to believe everything you hear?







Maybe Tony meant to say inspired by. They sure as hell arent the same.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article113/A-P8.htm

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com.../photo_03.html

It's called a "dual quench" combustion chamber. The first link is to the AFR Eliminator chamber. Scroll down to the bottom pic, then compare it to the pic of the LS1 combustion chamber in the second link.

If you can't see the similarities between the two, and the dissimilarities between the Eliminator chamber and any othe 23 degree SBC chamber, you need to get your glasses checked.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

hmm? take a look at my desktop dyno numbers with the my 195 Eliminators and a smaller cam 226/232 than in thier dyno test. Peak is right up there with thiers. Im sold and cant wait to get this thing on the road.

and look at the numbers I hope to run....but my car is 3400lbs...which is better.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

getting there!

Guest

You need better reading skills. The second link you posted are AFTERMARKET heads, not factory. Geesh. Go look up some factory heads first, its what I posted above.

Trick Flow had a "double quench" chamber in production way before Tony ever thought of the idea, so you're wrong yet again.

Anyway, I've had enough of the nonsense here... my chainsaw isnt big enough to cut down the trees so you can see the forest.
----------

Now all you need is something other than a TPI.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

oh yeah,,I know!.....Im going STEALTHRAM!

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Oh, King of Combustion, I present to you GM's highest evolution of of the LSX design, the LS7. Note the unmistakable similarity between the LS7 combustion chamber, and the AFR Eliminator's. I rest my case; game, set, match.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec.../photo_09.html

Also, I never said anything about Trick Flow, it is you who seems determined to bring those heads into the discussion. Nor did I suggest Tony Mamo was "first" at anything. What I said was Tony incorporated LS1-style combustion chamber and intake runner design concepts into 23 degree SBC head design. Since the LSX series of engines were the first GM small blocksto incorporate dual quench design, and AFR's Eliminator heads clearly incorporate that concept as well, as is clearly shown in the pics provided, you don't have a leg to stand on, nor an eye to see the forest for the trees.

Guest

Dont you ever give up? Take some remedial reading classes, you cant even read what you wrote all by yourself. Maybe its time I never read this post again or you'll post another bit of wisdom

Grim Reaper

Sean, if you like the Eliminators, buy them. It's your money and if you want them, get them. However, I will agree say that AFR has had some quality control issues when it comes to their valves...and this was in the older heads.

My buddy did a tear down of his engine recently and he had the AFR 195 Competition Heads. For whatever reason, he had the heads sent to a machine shop to have the heads checked out and found a number of the valves where "slightly bent".

AFR did warranty the heads without any hassles and made the necessary repairs, but he did have to wait a while.

dave-92gta

iTrader: (1)

i dunno, this is very helpful actually. i have learned a lot for you two guys. a lot of info on this thread about the two heads. i have a set of vortec heads that are 190cc aluminums, but they are sort of no names off ebay. i was probably going to put them on and see how they run. i dont really want to be a thread hog, but it think this thread is lost anyway. you guys should take a look at these and tell me what you think. both madmax and seanof30306 are knowledable people on heads, waht do you think? should i not bother with these and go with a set of AFR or Trickflows or w/e.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ALUMINUM-HEADS-NE...QQcmdZViewItem

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

You're the one who doesn't give up. I'm sure of where I'm coming from, I got my information straight from the mouth of the guy who designed the heads, If you've decided to finally quit arguing your nonsensical position, I agree, it is time for you to never read this post again.

Angelis83LT

i think what he is getting at is you keep saying LS1 inspired and such, but when you go and try to compare with a picture you show an LS7 Head. So perhpas someone misunderstood or something. So IMO the AFR heads are more like LS7 heads than they are close to LS1 heads

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

The original LS1 head had a "dual quench" combustion chamber, as characterized by the two distinct "humps" in the upper end of the combustion chamber. Further development of the dual quench concept can be seen in the LS2 head, where the lower end of the combustion chamber is flattened out, rather than rounded, as in the LS! head. Aftermarket head designers found there was even more power available by further defining the quench areas, as can be seen in the LS7 head, and in the AFR Eliminator.

Regardless, these are all further developments in the "dual quench" design of the LS1 head.

In post # 13, Madmax said "About the only thing similar to the LS1 heads is the bore spacing."

That is incorrect. The AFR Eliminator, the Ls1 head, the LS2 head, The LS6 head, and the LS7 head are all based upon the LS1's dual quench combustion chamber"

and in post # 19: "I could really care less if Tony designed the heads (as if I didnt already know that), there's no similarity to the LS1 besides his PR speech."

That is wrong. Furthermore, Tony Mamo, the guy who designed the heads, told me they incorporated improvements in runner design from the LS1 heads (read that LSX-type heads, as the runners have developed along with the combustion chambers in the GM heads).

Grim Reaper

I can live with the word "inspired". But I think Sean & madmax are getting into symatecs and interpretations that probably could be resolved over a few beers.

Madmax is correct that they are NOT LS1 or even LS7 heads. It would be impossible for any 23* bolt on head to ever be an LS1 head. The ports alone make them as different as a Chevy & Ford head.

As for the combustion chamber, I agree the new AFR Eliminator Heads bear a resemblence. I think the word "inspired" fits quite aptly.