This is a C4 Vette, but I am sure you guys dont mind me posting....

The stock L-98 was taken out in July 2009, and the 421 was dropped in its place. I still cant believe it was that long ago, but such is life.

Most of you know how busy I have been the last several years hence why the car has not been top priority. I am even suprised that it has come this far.

Fast forward to April 2011, and the car has finally been started, and I absolutely love the sound of it. It idles at around 750 rpm which is a tad bit low I think. The tune is not bang on, but I believe its somewhat close. My engine builder Jim Barth who is a respected forum member of the CF will be flying in near the end of May to assist me in tuning this monster.

Originally when the 421 was first started the amount of blue smoke due to the start up lube, and the timing being off was certainly a stressful moment being the first high performance motor that I have had built for me. But after I got someone who was experienced in the FAST system, and the way I had it setup, the blue smoke went away at idle, and the idle its self calmed down, and my mind was eased a wee bit. If the motor was damaged in any way because of how much fuel was being dumped down on initial start up, I certainly would not be building another one. I doubt washing the rings wouldnt be a good thing.

The roads are still a little dusty so I wont be driving the car just yet, and it might still snow yet. The airfuel on the FAST on idle is in the safe range, but like I said it will need to be fine tuned, and I will be throwing it on the dyno in May for chits and giggles when Jim flys north to Canuckville.

Anyways here is a little video of the 421. I am sure I will have my issues, but if it goes like it sounds then I will be a happy camper and the wait will be worth it!

It sounds better in person, but I figured a video is better then nothing!

More vids to come down the road. Take care guys! :thumbs:

-4 Bolt Bowtie block
-AFR 195cc Eliminator Comp Ports
-11.6 CR.
-Callies Crank
-JE Pistons solid dome
-Crower Rods
-TPIS Miniram ported
-Comp Cam XE Hyd Roller 236/242 .62x/.58x
-1 3/4 Hookers to 3 inch Billy Boat SS exhaust with reasonators and mufflers



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPLT_VmK-sg

 

Grats man about time you got her together!

Does your FAST system not have a self learn feature using a WBO2?

Hope your rear in the car is up for the challenge

 

Sounds incredible, that's a very healthy cam! Looking forward to more video's....

 

Your cam will sound smaller once Jim has it fine tuned, its def on the rich side, can tell by listening to it.

Your motor will thank you for it, should run real hard.
Keep us posted.

When is the ZF6 going in?

 

Not sure when the ZF is going in Ron. First things first. I am never in a hurry!

 

Thanks man. It will tame out a bit but I am suprised on the idle a bit given all the cubes.

 

CONGRATS! Long time coming, i've been following that build for a while along with a few others on the c4 forum.
That thing sounds like it idles very very low rpm It would or should smooth out alot if you had it at 850-900 rpm, but it sounds like its at 650 lol Cam on paper is kinda tame for a 421 but it certainly doesnt sound like it. Should be a strong runner

I got a 233/233 with not nearly as much lift on my 401 and its definately not that lopey at 800 rpm haha. Sounds good tho.

 

Thats cool but y so small on the heads????

 

Yeah I hear you. It was idling about 700 in that video. The idle will be moved up to 900. The cam is small on paper for a 421, and I agree, it certainly doesnt sound small. If luck is on my side, I should have a dyno print out in a few weeks.

I am sure it wont be a dyno queen, but if it goes like it sounds then I will be a happy camper.

 

Below is an older combo that LPE put together for there customers


420 Cubic Inches
3.875" stroke Callies crank
Oliver 5.875" rods
11: 1 compression, custom forged pistons.
Used a Bowtie engine block
Comp Cams mechanical roller cam: 236/244 @ .050, .549/.549 lift, 110 deg lobe sep, 1.5 roller rocker arms by Comp Cams.
Lingenfelter ported AFR 190 aluminum heads
SuperRam intake, base, and 58mm throttle body, controlled by DFI using 36lb/hr injectors.

Ran test on 1-7/8" open headers.

RPM TQ HP
1600 407 124
2000 415 158
2500 478 228
3000 484 277
3500 515 343
4000 534 407
4500 543 465
5000 530 505
5500 498 525
5750 460 508

As you can see from the numbers above, the motor is a torque monster. The combination of the large displacement, smallish heads, high lift roller cam, and the intake system make big block torque in a small block package. This motor computes out to a 113% efficiency at the HP peak, which is an indication of how well matched this combo is.



My combo is somewhat similar except I went with a Miniram which should make more power then the Superram they used in there test. My duration is similar except I have more lift.

And to answer your question. LPE used ported 190cc AFR's. I do not know what they were ported out to, but lets say they ported them out to 210cc.

Mine are the 195 comp ports that flow just a tad over 300 cfm which is a chit load for a small port. FYI. I wanted a combo that has power anywhere in the curve. Throttle response, driveability, and fuel milage (somewhat). I am hoping with my combo it will do all of those things and still trap in the 125 range.

The only thing that test has me is the 1 7/8 open headers. I have 1 3/4 running to true duals (3 inch) into mufflers/reasonator. This will hamper my numbers but if it puts out 550/550 at the crank with the puny heads then ill be one happy camper.

 

Yup Uncle John made some very nice driveable power with his very wicked combos!
And I am in NO WAAAY bashing your combo but just wonder y guys build big cubes an strangle them w smallish heads?
The larger cubes give you the driveable tq we all like with the bigger heads it will help pull that power up in the upper rpm range!
again def NOT bashing im just wondering! your car sounds wicked !

 

Oh I know you are not bashing. No worries on that front. Tony Mamo himself had a big say in regards to the head, and cam combo. Himself and my engine builder shared info along with my input in regards to what I wanted out of this combo. We were on the fence in regards to going 195cc or the 210cc. Tony and Jim both agreed on the smaller heads. I couldnt believe that they flowed in the 303/235 range and only poured 196cc. This would have been unheard of 5 years ago.

I still remember my old TFS 195's flowing around 255/195 at the same .600 lift and that was considered good back in 2007.

In regards to our uncle. What a very sad event. Very sad!

 

To answer your strangle question. I think the power that this baby makes might suprise you. Tony once mentioned that the 195cc Comp ports were the best head he has ever been involved with in regards to how efficient it is.....

And that includes the 210's, 235's etc....

 

Oh they have great heads 4 sure. the 195s are a stellar piece. I used to sell them at a shop I worked at!

my friend has a 88-90ish C4 that has a LPE 383 combo with the stock ported heads and it makes monster power !
I do miss Uncle John.. great guy He came out in the rain to sign my headrest while making himself late 4 a flight.. super guy!

 

I will say this your 421SBC will push those AFR 195 heads to the limit. Maybe 600hp on an engine dyno if everything is right. The throttle response will be razor sharp.

"SuperRam intake, base, and 58mm throttle body"

If that was a stock SuperRam the motor was being choked. I am surprised it made the power it did.

 

600 hp would be a dream. I guess it depends on how high the cam peaks at with the XFI lobes. I would be more then happy with 550 however......

 

Yeah that 383 combo was there bread and butter in the day. Infact there are guys these days still building engines with the SR and the 219, but most are going with AFR's instead of ported 113's.

 

"600 hp would be a dream"

It all boils down to how much of that available 300cfm airflow your motor will access. If your MiniRam is "almost" port matched to the head that will help. Probably need a 3.5" or a 4.0" cold air intake along with a large throttle body. A monoblade would not hurt in your situation. Definitely a good flowing exhaust system is in order. Again it all boils down to how much air flow you can process through the motor. That is from the airfilter to the tail pipe exit.

 

-port matched
-58 mm Holley TB
-exhaust has mufflers and reasonator
-miniram flows 308 cfm per runner
-3 inch mandrel bent duals

The above is the goods. Car is loud enough so I wont be taking off the reasonator.

 

I agree that the 195s will be maxed out and off-idle until 2500/3000 rpm will be phenominal since there is no pumping loss on the "untuned" MiniRam.

Based on the dyno results of that 420 engine after swapping to an Accel Single Plane EFI, I suspect a little porting on the SuperRam,, but without serious modifications,, it just can not pass enough air for an engine like this. Also,, velocity was so high in the plenum area of the single plane with the 1250 t/b that they had to put a 1550 t/b to get the air slow enough to make a “smoother” transition from the t/b. Once they did that,, the short runner single plane made as much or more torque throughout the RPM band as the SuperRam,, which is a definite indication the cross-sectional area of the SuperRam was WAY, WAY off from what the engine needed - lol. Anyway,, I’d think the larger plenum area and t/b position of the MiniRam might help - I'd hope so or there might be a serious air distribution problem between front and rear cylinders. At any rate, and obviously based on the dyno info,,, the engine is going to want a lot more air than even a mono-blade would deliver.

RPM TQ HP
1600 407 124 -- Accel Single Plane EFI
2000 415 158 –- 1200 T/B ---1550 T/B
2500 478 228 --- HP - TQ ---- HP - TQ
3000 484 277 --- 500 286 --- 516 295
3500 515 343 --- 508 339 --- 523 349
4000 534 407 --- 513 391 --- 530 403
4500 543 465 --- 525 450 --- 547 469
5000 530 505 --- 523 498 --- 543 517
5500 498 525 --- 505 529 --- 525 550
5750 460 508 --- 490 536 --- 505 552
6000 ---NA------- 470 537 --- 489 558
6200 ---NA------- 454 535 --- 474 560

 

For comparision sake:

Older 421.


-421 cubes
-Bowtie block
-222/230 .550 lift
-10.5 CR
-unported miniram
-Older 190cc AFR comp ports
-FAST Classic for tuning

Car made 416rwhp/438rwtq with a manual which is what I have. This 421 peaked at around 5500 rpms, and made 400rwtq-438rwtq from 2000 rpm's to 5500 rpm's.



My combo

-421 cubes
-Bowtie block
-236/242 .620 ish lift
-11.6 CR
-ported miniram
-AFR Eliminator 195CC Comp ports
-FAST Classic for tuning


What gains do you guys think I will see with the upgrades?

 

The combo above made 416 whp with those heads and cam? thats pretty impressive considering the baby cam and older 190 cc AFR heads... I'm kinda suprised at that.

I'd have your combo listed at 440whp but that older combo kinda throws that out the window. You have point higher compression, cam alot bigger, and heads that flow alot more. You would expect a good bit more power, probably 30-40whp more overall. That would put you closer to 460's whp. I know my buddy's 406 miniram with larger heads and much bigger cam than you makes closer to 480whp thru the T56 maybe more.... and was making 468whp with a lean air fuel ratio. I just dont see how your combo can compete with his setup, so 440whp would be my guess. His is pretty race oriented

 

You will see big gains. Myself I would have gone a little larger on the camshaft duration as the compression and cubic inches would eat it up and you still would have a nice idle and decent street manners.

1. The camshaft is a big step in the right direction from the previous setup.
2. The compression ratio will be worth a some power.
3. The ported mini-ram is a nice improvement.
4. The new AFR 195 Comp heads are a big improvement.

I assume the mini-ram has been opened up to just under a Felpro 1206 gasket and not larger than the intake ports on the AFR head. My concern is that the Mini-Ram should be flowing well over 308cfm per runner. Heck we are getting 330cfm from hogged out Accel TPI intake manifolds. These are welded up.

I currently have an Accel TPI intake manifold over at Dr J's for a maximum effort port job(lots and lots of welding) based on the Felpro 1206 gasket and it also will be going on a pair of AFR 195 Comp heads. I fully expect the flow to be above 330cfm. I should know shortly as he is about done with it.

Anyways I see no reason why you should not be at 475rwhp if not more. If everything is done right I would not be surprised at 500rwhp. Done right means all the little details have been covered. I can just imagine what the air velocity will be at the pushrod pinch point in those heads. You will probably be on the verge of going sonic.

 

Comparing the older 421 to yours I would say you have the potential to make a good 50-60+rwhp over the older 421....maybe more..if you make an honest 550 chp,and I think you should,after driveline loss you could be 460-470+rwhp..
Everyone needs to keep in mind that you're purposely running a very mild set-up...it would be nothing to run 220-235 heads on that motor,with a cam in the mid upper 240's(or more) and make killer power...I look forward to your results as I would like to do something like this down the road,with maybe the new afr 220 heads,and a mid 240ish cam...would make graet power and still be pretty decent on the street

 

Mark Bychowski on the Corvette forum made 476rwhp with a 6.0L LT1 motor also with a T56 transmission. He had a massaged LT1 intake and the camshaft was around 233 degrees or so on the intake. You should have everything he had and then some. That is one of the things I am basing my estimates on. He did have the AFR 210 LT1 head but the flow was almost exactly the same as the AFR 195 Comp head.

 

Lets remember that the dyno isn't the end all thing....its gotten big over the years especially with the lsx crowd,but the track will tell the truth,and I think this set-up with the right conditions/traction should run 10's with an easy 125+mph..

 

I'm excited and ready to see the results !

 

Interesting. I believe when the MR was in as cast form it flowed around 280 cfm, and after ported 308 cfm. As you can see it wasnt an max effort job, but there was time spent on it. If it was welded up and I spent the bigbucks thhen 400cfm isnt out of the question.

I wont make 500rwhp. IMO it takes a solid roller or an all out effort with a hyd. roller in a Gen 1 motor to make that kind of power.

 

Exactly! This motor built with a purpose. Of course I could of went with a bigger cam or bigger cylinder heads but I didnt. It was built to have power everywhere, and anywhere in the curve. Bigger is not always better!

 

Mark's engine also reved, and reved. Mine will be peaking much less rpm then his. Not sure our two motors should be compared.

 

That is true. But you do have a little bigger camshaft, slightly more compression and 50 more cubic inches. Your heads may actually flow better with the bigger bore. I think Tony flows them on a 4.060" bore plate.

IMHO it will be the Mini-Ram that will be the deciding factor. Can't wait for the results.

Edit: Here are the specs on Marks 6.0L LT1 motor for comparison and the reasoning behind my thought process of where you "might" be. I do realize that was not your goal when you built the motor, but no matter what you are going to have one heck of a ride.

Engine specs:
Shortblock
LT1 / 4 small block
bore: 4.03"
Stroke 3.625"
6.0" rods
Static compression 10.96:1

Hydraulic roller cam, specs at .05" lift:
Intake duration 230, .622 valve lift
Exhaust duration 236, .624 valve lift
Lobe separation: 112.0
Installed 108.0 intake center line
Caddy racing lifters

Edit2: Here are the flow numbers from Marks heads.

28" 4.155 bore (I did not have time to test on a 4.030 but will have another set in the near future I will test with both)

In Ex
.050 - 39.5 23.8
.100 70 55.5
.200 143.1 110.7
.300 205 169.4
.400 257.4 211.3
.500 292 228.2
.550 297 230
.600 302.2 231.9

 

Hard to say.... 210cc heads will make alot more power than the 195's, and I think this motor is starting to approach the max limit on the heads. I'd be surprised over 450whp on this setup. Joe Sherman claimed 600 hp on a 383 with these 195 heads but he used a big solid roller and spun to 7K rpm. This motor wont be near that but still will make power...I just dont see much over 450 on those heads. Thats alot of power on 195 comp ports. A good 550hp on crank would be about limit I think, and assuming 15% loss thats 467whp. If it makes that, that would be awesome to see, but a 421 needs alot of airflow. It will find the limit of those 195 heads for sure.

Alot of the recent 400-420" builds I've seen posted on other forums with 220-235cc heads and big hydraulic rollers in the low 250 deg range .640 lift, have done 640 crank hp or so. Thats very stout for a sbc. Spinning to 6700+,. Thats well over 520-530whp in a 6 speed. ZR1 does about that with 638hp advertised...

 

The results will be interesting for sure. I understand he has other goals for his build and I am sure he will meet them.

 

I am not sure how the 210's will make alot more power then the 195's. Even though they are approx. 15 more cc's it certainly doesnt show in the flow numbers. My guess was they would make another 10-15hp or so. The 235's would be a different story.

My numbers certainly arent very far off the 210's.

Intake

.200 153 cfm
.300 210 cfm
.400 257 cfm
.500 287 cfm
.600 303 cfm

Exhaust

.200 124 cfm
.300 170 cfm
.400 205 cfm
.500 227 cfm
.600 235 cfm

 

"My numbers certainly arent very far off the 210's"

They are virtually identical to Marks. I had Tony flow my AFR 195 Competition heads and he used a 4.060" bore plate. My numbers were about the same as yours. I see Marks were flowed on a 4.155" bore plate.

Tony also mentioned that he spent a lot of time getting rid of the "dead" areas in the 195 Comp heads. He also put in a vane to help direct the airflow.

 

You have to veiw heads kinda like this.
Take a P1SC and a D1SC Procharger both on the same motor(not at same time) at the same PSI.
The P blower is less volume than the D head unit.
The D unit will make more power at same psi,Y? it has more air Volume at the same PSI.
now take the 195/210s/235s the bigger heads WILL make more power on your motor with nothing else changed Y? you will be flowing more air volume at the same CFM with the bigger head, and Im thinking you would def see gains because of your CI alone.
I remeber CarCraft did a head test yrs ago and found the same results.. bigger heads made more power everywhere in the curve even with the same small ish cam.
You have a monster motor as is but if ya wana step it up shoot 4 the 235s or bigger!

 

It may not show up as much on the advertised flow numbers but thats not the end all/say all on power production. Motor sees different pressures across the valve so flow numbers dont mean much at that point. The difference will be in port velocity...the 210 wont choke as early as the 195 and allow for more flow after choke which equals more rpm range and that always helps make more hp. I think after 6000 rpm the 210 will really shine and really pick up after 6400 if the cam could make power up that high. I think its gonna be short of that. You'll need closer to 10 deg more to make peak power near 6400 on a 421, maybe even 12-14 deg more.

 

Hey Guys, I haven't been over here much, most people know me from CF C4 tech. The mild 421 Rick was talking about above was a 421 I did back in 2000. It was primarily an emission legal engine, which is the reason for the small cam and 195's. The miniram just had a mild gasket match. It was a very responsive fun car to drive on the street that would still pull down 23mpg, and did make 416 rwhp. The miniram on Ricks engine now is my old miniram. It did flow 308 cfm after being worked over, but that was with a old heavily ported Canfield head attached to it. It would flow considerable more if you flowed it without a head attached to it. But it will definately keep up with the flow of the Comp port 195's.

 

"But it will definately keep up with the flow of the Comp port 195's"

I have been debating which was going to be the bigger restriction, the heads or the Mini-Ram. From the latest information it looks like the heads will be put to the maximum test. I guess we are going to find out what the AFR 195 Competition heads can do.

 

Yes we will see what the 195's can do. I think they will do just fine.

 

Any updates on when the dyno and tuning sessions might happen? We are all very interested.

 

Tell me about it. Obama called me last night asking about dyno numbers.

All joking aside. If the stars align, I will have dyno numbers and driving impressions next week.

 

remember

LPE's 420/421 was also 50 state smog legal.

and not max effort.

had them do My Camaro back in 92/93
and have had a few of there combos over the years.

now the 427/434 and up sbc are making 640 hp and street driven.
before nos or boost..maby not smog legal..but i dont give a rats @$$ today anyway
11.70 @ 120mph in 1993 10.58 with the nos in 1993 that was with stage 5 upgrade 383 in my 92 z28.
them days are over baby

 

what intake on your 427? and what does it rev too?

 

The 400+ " motors i've seen that make 640hp+ all rev to around 6500-6700 rpm hp peaks, and shift by 7000-7200. Thats miniram territory.

 

What degree heads are you talking about here making 640 plus hp? My engine builder has a 450 cid with some big 23 degree AFR heads, and a HEAVILY ported Miniram and he would be lucky to make 640 chp, and its a max effort with high dollar parts.

FYI. My 421 is running amazing. Thankgod for the FAST Classic. Its alot easier to tune then the stock ECM.

 

"FYI. My 421 is running amazing"

Good news. Hopefully the dyno portion cannot be to far away.

 

Dr J's just recently did a 408 with there airwolf 220's a 255@.50 hydraulic roller,and made 640 @6700...on 91 octane...crazy how far technology has come in just the past few years..you can make 550-650+hp on pump gas and be streetable...

 

that's cool, but a 255 duration cam is alot. i wouldnt say its streetable to most. can you say cam surge!

 

I only have about 170 miles on the motor. Let me break it in, and do an oil change. I want to get at least 500 miles on it. Plus I would like to take out my 3.07's and put some 3.45's in its place.