JonJon5.0

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Putting an LED or HID into a non projector housing is illegal, and it gives the car enthusiast community a bad name because of the light output. If you want good, bright, 5000k color lights, get JW Speaker lamps, pretty much the best on the market

Buddy

Contact The Retrofit Source, Morimoto, and Headlight Revolution. These guys are some of THE light guys in the aftermarket. They can answer all your questions and steer you in the right direction.

hotrodf1

I have been researching this as well. I think a good option is some nice Vision X reflector style housings (just got mine from here HID Kit Pros for $40 / pair Click here for HID Kit Pros). Vision X VX-46 housings.These have aluminum housings as opposed to cheaper plastic, and are said to use a specific shape to help with cutoff. I was then thinking of using the 9007 style LED from SuperbrightLEDs.com, as they seem to be putting the LED chips in the same location that the halogen filament would have been, to actually project light properly using the reflector housing. Course a new halogen should work well

There are also 5 x 7 size for Firebird guys in the Vision X housings too.

Bonus, I think the clear glass projector housings look great on these cars, especially if you have the clear parking lamps to go with. Updates the car IMO.

With the cheaper LED array type lights, they "look" super bright to oncoming drivers because of the terrible light scatter that most seem to offer, but they don't "project" properly down the road. They light up only in the nearfield, and you are blinded by road signs and things that normally wouldn't be lit up so much.

J.W. Speaker I think sound awesome, but lots of dough. ALso in that category is the Vision X LED as well. Vision X LED, 4 x6 replacements Again, lots of dough. And they look quite different, which could be good or bad depending on personal preference.

Buddy

I went with Trucklite, cheaper than JW Speaker but compete with them. JW Speaker is basically the top dog, but top $$ too.

bk2life

sylvania replacemnt lights at your local parts store. and make sure your grounds are good. dim lights are usually caused by bad grounds. super easy to check/fix if needed. the syalvania lights are led bright and cost $30 bucks each.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

There are some excellent 4x6 LED sealed headlights available that would work well on a Camaro. Some are reflector housings, and some are projector housings. Some feature dual beams(low/high in the same housing), and some feature single beams(a low beam housing and a high beam housing). And some feature a DRL/halo, which would be useful and attractive on a Camaro. The best-of-the-best are listed below, and all are, at least, DOT compliant, most actually DOT approved.

Vision X Vortex 4x6 w/halo is the best LED reflector headlight. These would be awesome for either, a 91-92 Firebird or a Camaro, though their physical appearance might look too "busy" on a Camaro:
https://headlightrevolution.com/visi...t-of-2-lights/

Truck Lite is another excellent LED reflector headlight:
https://headlightrevolution.com/truc...light-housing/
https://headlightrevolution.com/truc...light-housing/

United Pacific offers a new LED reflector headlight w/DRL light bar; looks like it could be interesting on a Camaro:
https://headlightrevolution.com/unit...-bar-low-beam/
https://headlightrevolution.com/unit...bar-high-beam/

Vision X reflector housings for replaceable bulbs are, by-far, the best of this type of reflector headlight on the market; no ebay housing will compare. And you can install whatever type of light in them that you want: DOT approved for Halogen, but plug-n-play LED and HID could be installed, too. The 4x6 housing uses a dual beam 9007 bulb; better than H4 because 9007 has an O-ring that seals the housing. And 9007-to-H4 adapter harnesses are available; might even be included. These would probably be the most practical for a Camaro, as four housings would be affordable and present a nice, clean, somewhat stock appearance, while promoting superior performance over stock sealed beams, with a wide beam pattern and a nice cutoff. 5000K is pretty normal in LED and HID, but for Halogen, a 5000K bulb won't be easy to find off-the-shelf, so if that's the color you want, then plan to do some searching:
https://headlightrevolution.com/visi...g-h4651-h4656/

JW Speaker is the best LED projector headlight, after which a lot of poor-quality knock-offs have been patterned:
https://headlightrevolution.com/jw-s...heated-chrome/
https://headlightrevolution.com/jw-s...heated-chrome/

You will find dozens more if you search the internet, but the ones I listed above are clearly the best in quality, best in design, and best in performance.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I used the Truck lite 4x6 LED. They are awesome. Plug and Play, 5 minutes to swap them out.

blacksunshine'91

iTrader: (10)

LAFireboyd is pretty much the most knowledgable person on this topic here on TGO. Go with whatever he says.

Finding quality lights, at a reasonable price, that fit the '91-92 Firebird headlight housings is frustrating.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

That's true, there don't seem to be any affordably-priced, high-performance, dual beam headlight options that fit 91-92 Firebirds. I found this awhile back while searching for projectors for 91-92 Firebirds. It's a four-projector combination created for 4thgen Firebirds, using Hella 60mm modular projectors. Those are completely sealed projector units, so they can be mounted openly and don't require containment within housings, like typical projectors in retrofits. While such headlights might be adaptable to 91-92 Firebirds, they definitely seem well-suited to 3rdgen Camaros. And there's a vendor on ebay who cuts mounting plates for them, so they can be mounted just like the stock headlights. Mounted pics are in the ebay ad. But on a Camaro, the modular lights will be fully exposed, so the appearance might look a bit mechanical and robotic, whereas, on a Firebird, they would be hidden-by-day, exposed only at night. They're DOT approved for Halogen, but HID apparently works, too, because people who've done this mod on 4thgens are using HID. I know the OP said he didn't want projectors, but this seemed like as good a time-and-place as any for posting about it.
http://www.rallylights.com/hella-60m...mp-module.html
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hella-60mm-...75.c100623.m-1

Something to note about using HID for high beams... because HID requires a brief warm-up time, it's not considered the best lighting source for separate high beams in a four-headlight system, because you won't get full benefit of the lights, instantly, after having activated them, like you would an incandescent bulb or LED. That's why you see reflector-style high beams in combination with low beam projectors on many new cars today. That said, I can't recall a time when I activated my high beams because I needed instantaneous vision from them. We usually do for additional lighting for a length of time, not for instant gratification, right? Given that, then HID should be just as suitable for separate high beams as it is for low beams, IMO, of course. Although, flashing someone wouldn't be very effective with such HID high beams. The other driver would be like, "did something just flicker at me?" Bi-Xenon is different because the projector is simply releasing more of the light that's already on.

Hella also offers 90mm Bi-Xenon and 90mm Bi-LED modular projectors, which could probably be similarly-adapted to 91-92 Firebirds. Even the above-mentioned mounting plates would probably work, but the hole for the projector might have to be adjusted. These are quite expensive, though, and I haven't figured out if the price is for the pair or just for one. Seems to me I remember the price being for the pair on Hella's website, but it's been awhile since I looked at them there. These would also be excellent for 82-90 Firebirds, if someone could cut a 5x7 mounting plate for them.
http://www.rallylights.com/hella-bi-...-headlamp.html
http://www.rallylights.com/hella-l40...le-gen-ii.html
http://www.rallylights.com/hella-90m...-low-beam.html

Personally, I love those Vision X Vortex headlights for 91-92 Firebirds. But people would probably need a sponsor, right?

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

406TPI, I remember you searching for a 4x6 headlight upgrade for years. Are you using only the Truck Lite low beams, or are you using the Truck Lite high beams, too? The matching set of four would look pretty cool on your/any Camaro. In fact, everything about your Camaro looks good. Was it ever a COTM candidate or winner, where you posted pics of it? If not, then you should post an album in your profile so we can see more of it.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Subscribed... a lot of good info / links...

I bought some "ECode" housings and used LED, but it has the 9004 / H4 base, which doesn't seal, so I had to use a lot of Silicone because previous attempts kept getting water in the housing... So far so good, the current setup is dry, but hasn't really been exposed to rain, but the beam pattern / light is good.

I will look into the 9007 option that actually seals... I have a HID kit for my daily driver from the retrofit source and it is wonderful. I'll probably go HID route with 9007 housings... 91 Firebird... There is a post on here with pics of my car with the current setup, etc..
Those Vortec are almost $800 !?!?!?

Rafael

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Otay... Trying the VX 46 Reflector housings & Morimoto HID lights out...
Ordered the VX46 reflector housings... gonna wait to see how they fit before ordering more... 91 Firebird.
I had great luck with "E Code European" housings and some LED's, good pattern and bright...
See pics in this thread...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...milar-hid.html
Probably only have 4 hours of use, I am running Morimoto HID in my Outback and they are BRIGHT...
I just don't like the H4 fit and having to use silicone to seal the headlight...
More as it develops...

Rafael

scooter

iTrader: (11)

You can't use an HID in a reflector housing, it's not legal

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Got it...

I emailed the guy on ebay with the 60mm Hella projectors, hasn't had anyone with 91-92 firebirds try his plates.
After more thought, I will probably go the LED route... Headlight Revolution FINALLY emailed back. They highly recomended the Supernova v4 9007 bulbs, brighter and better beam pattern than anything else they've tested by far.
After the housings arrive and I check fitment, it all good, I'll order the Supernova v4's...

Raf

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Legality. There's always someone, and every headlight topic thread on TGO has one who tries to frighten people. So let's talk about it.

Laws, particularly headlight laws, tend to be "blankets," and they cover generalities, not specifics, so it's highly doubtful that there are any headlight laws or ordinances written that are specific to HID in reflector housings. And there couldn't be, because some manufacturers actually installed HID in reflectors during the 90s, before they began offering projectors. It wasn't necessarily a great combination for an oncoming driver to face, but it certainly wasn't illegal, so it couldn't be today either, due to such factory-offered combinations of the recent past.

Why? Because according to those laws, it is illegal to modify ANY factory headlight, on ANY automobile, at ANY time, for ANY reason, period... unless changing to another headlight that was offered as an option for that car, at the time that car was manufactured. So, legally, what does all of that mean? Well, with regards to 3rdgens, it means NOTHING IS, OR WILL EVER BE LEGAL, other than factory-style sealed beam Halogen headlights, as long as such products are still being manufactured and available, simply because no other headlight option was ever offered by GM for these cars. So all the projector retrofits, HID, LED, DIY hack-jobs, etc., are ILLEGAL on 3rdgens, period, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

As for HID in reflector housings, it means that such a combination IS legal, IF that's what came in the car from the factory, and some cars, not 3rdgens, did come that way from the factory. But as a random modification to all other cars, that combination would be "considered" illegal, simply due to being covered by the blanket, pertaining to the general modification of headlights, and that's the only reason. The fact that such a combination may or may not be blinding, is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the legality of the combination.

Regarding HID and projectors, the two are not mutually-exclusive to each other, and they were never meant to be; neither was created for the other. Lighting that we know today as HID, has been around since the early 60s. It was adapted to automobile headlights in the early 80s, but it wasn't widely accepted by the industry until about a decade later. Projectors came along in the mid-to-late 80s, and they featured Halogen bulbs. Why? Because Halogen was still the accepted light source for the automobile industry at that time. And like HID, projectors also wouldn't catch-on until later in the 90s. But projectors were not created to harness the power of HID. It just-so-happened that they were effective at doing so. But even HID in projectors can be blinding. If anyone thinks otherwise, then he apparently doesn't get out much at night.

As for me, and all of the many other people who have already modified their headlights, we don't care, and that's putting it mildly, so it doesn't get edited LOL. And I doubt many police departments/officers do either, unless an officer, himself, is blinded by someone's headlights to such an extent that he feels it's necessary to pull him over, just to make a case out of it--or if the officer is failing to meet his monthly quota. And if that happens, it's likely due to the car owner's headlights being a quintessential, cheap, DIY hack-job. Because if good-quality products were used, manufactured to meet legal standards, and designed to fit properly, as are all of the products listed above, or in any of my other posts/threads regarding headlights, and they're installed properly, then their "legality" is not likely to ever come into question--unless someone is pulled-over for driving-stupid, and the officer does a walk-around, just to look for other possible violations. But even then, if the headlights aren't hack-jobs, and the driver isn't behaving like he's on an episode of "Cops," then such illegal, yet properly-fitting, DOT compliant headlights, which were not the issue in the first place, probably won't become an issue.

Given all of that, a legitimate argument could be made for aftermarket reflector headlight housings with replaceable bulbs being considered "legal" replacement products for 3rdgens. The factory-style sealed beam headlight features a reflective bowl, therefore, it is, effectively, a reflector headlight. So products like the Vision X 4x6 and 5x7 reflector housings, which are considered "sealed beams," should meet legal criteria for use in 3rdgens, or, at least, they should not bring any legal problems, whereas a DIY hack-job would definitely draw legal problems. Can you imagine what might go through an officer's mind when he opens a hood and sees patchwork headlights, full of silicone and duct tape? $$$, that's what. Just say, "guilty," and beg for mercy. How could anyone be proud of such a "finished" product anyway?

So, Jah, do what you want or feel you need to do. Just do it well, and it's unlikely that you'd ever have anything to worry about. But definitely DON'T do the 60mm Hella projectors, as those are not dual beam projectors; they're single beam projectors: one is a low beam projector, and one is a high beam projector. You need dual beam headlights, as you know. The Hella 90mm projector features dual beams, but whether or not it will fit your headlight housing, I couldn't say. Dimensionally, it looks like it might not. But the 90mm projectors are available in Bi-Xenon and Bi-LED, and Hella's website proudly exclaims that the Bi-LED projector is "the best headlight in the world."

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

All good... I understand about the HID in the projectors, I am happy with the LED in reflectors I have now except how they seal... I didn't want to go the projector route (as noted, only low beam), just wanted something to seal up properly, not like a 3rd grade art project. $800 for a new pair of headlights, is about 1/4th of what I paid for the whole car I think I'll be happy with the VX 46's and Supernova v4's... I'll post results here...

Rafael

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Wrong, factually and anecdotally. You are allowed to replace factory components that are DOT compliant. They must be DOT compliant, this is completely legal. For a short period of time Philips had a replacement HID system that was DOT compliant, I missed out getting it before they discontinued it, I wished I hadn't waited to get it

From the JW Speaker page
You can most definitely replace a halogen headlamp with another if it meets the guidelines.

And that is the problem. Advocating that something may be illegal is wrong, for any reason whether you understand or not. It also give car enthusiasts a bad name.

There is a reason you can ONLY use a HID in a projector setup, the light MUST be focused properly because it is so unbelievably bright, it is so far past the brightness of LED and halogens. It also outputs harmful UV, so going around putting them in a reflector housing is illegal, and wrong. That is why I blanket statement things like this

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

The VX 46 housings fit nice In my 91 Firebird.
There is a little metal bucket right behind the headlight, that I previously had to make the hole bigger, but the end of this housing fit in it no problem. The Supernova V4 9007's are supposed to ship mid-January, so I will order them and try them out. I am happy to be keeping the stock look of the headlights, and if the new ones are just as good as the ones I am exchanging for, I will be happy. They definitely will seal better too! I put faith in them enough to drive through Tampa's Malfunction Junction at 6 in the morning a while back and they did fine lighting up the road! Vision X also makes a 5x7 for the older Firebirds. More updates after I get the LEDs and try them out.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Nothing you quoted, scooter, confirms that I am wrong. All you showed was that the DOT regulates lighting standards for the automobile industry in the United States. Therefore, auto makers must install lighting that meets those standards, and they do. It does not cover the consumers' rights and whether or not the consumer can make changes to lights that were installed by auto manufacturers, as the Feds do not and cannot regulate such consumer actions.

It's the states where vehicles are registered that must try to regulate such things. And state DMV codes do, specifically, address the legality of making changes to the headlights that were factory-installed by the auto maker. And state codes say, no, it's not legal to make any changes, period, unless... as I noted in my previous posts. Of course, states may vary on this, but probably not by much. If you want to challenge your state, then you're certainly welcome to do it, but you'd probably lose. If you're out-of-state, then you'd probably be ok because an officer isn't likely to know your state's codes, and shouldn't have the authority to try to enforce another state's codes anyway. Or maybe they do, or maybe they think they do, and some have probably tried. But even in-state, as I also said in my previous posts, as long as people use good products and do things "right," no hack-jobs, then they probably wouldn't face any legal problems, but that still wouldn't guarantee immunity from being cited and prosecuted.

Edit: At the consumer level, DOT compliancy is misleading. People think it means the products are legal and safe, but it does not protect the consumer, nor does it give consumers any rights. "DOT Compliant" and "DOT Approved" are not the same thing. Compliant simply means that the product was, supposedly, manufactured to meet DOT standards. But who verified and/or tested it to confirm that? Not the DOT, or it would say "DOT Approved." So simply being "compliant," does not mean it's "legal."

Also in my previous posts, I promoted good-quality, "compliant" and "approved" products, presenting good options for people. But I will never tell anyone that he "can't do" this or that, because it's not my place to do so, and it's not yours either. I tell them to do what they want, because it's their choice and decision, not mine or yours, and because they will anyway. I am not a stick-in-the-mud, controlling, conservative whacko, who feels it's his place to be telling people what they can and cannot do. And, yes, I will continue doing what I want to do, too.

scooter

iTrader: (11)

So much of what you've written is wrong, that I can't even address them all. I suggest you read though the Federal DOT regulations.

Direct from the NHTSA code;
"12.24.9) MARKINGS DOT marking The lens of each original equipment and replacement headlamp, and of each original equipment and replacement beam contributor, and each replacement headlamp lens for an integral beam or replaceable bulb headlamp, must be marked with the symbol “DOT” either horizontally or vertically to indicate certification under 49 U.S.C. 30115."

So if the lamp is marked "DOT" it is certified DOT compliant
https://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/TP-108-13.pdf

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

Scooter! I see you've still been trolling this thread. By the way, thank you for continuing to copy-and-paste DOT info. Every time you do, you continue proving yourself wrong, and that I am right. Have you even read anything I've written? Clicking the "quote" button is clever of you, as it makes it appear that you've read it, but it doesn't seem like you really have. Or maybe you just aren't able to comprehend things you read. But I've provided a lot of excellent products and information pertaining to this thread. You? Oh, well, at least, you've shown that you can type, well, hunt-and-peck, which shouldn't have been too difficult for you, since all you've had to say is, "you're wrong." But, basically, that's the gist of all you've ever had to say throughout your 20 years of trolling TGO, isn't it? So I would expect nothing less from your typing skills. Good work, sir!

But, scooter, this thread is dead, so I will be moving on. No doubt you will be right on my coattails, doing what you're best at, trolling, so see you around, mate!

scooter

iTrader: (11)

Hardly, but thanks for trying to sound intelligent! Like I said, so much of what you said WAS wrong I couldn't address it all!

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I have been using these lights, you can buy them on Amazon or eBay. They are complete replacements of the stock housings. You do have to cut out the back of the stock stamped Steel retaining frame but they do fit. They look and perform great. They have a definite cut off line like a projector would. The light is far superior to stock lighting options as well as the clear headlights that use the halogen bulb. I believe they cost me $140-170 for all four.