Hey Guys,
My beautiful 1985 Berlinetta Camaro is broken. I have managed to crack the front frame of my car. It's a healthy multiple crack(s) located where the steering gear box and frame meet. With such a large crack is it still repairable and is welding my best option? What about considering a used frame? Any information on costs and companies to check out would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

there are replacable frame rails to my knowledge. I would have to assume though that you can very easily cut out the old piece and put in new piece to repair the cracked area. My 1984 Berlinetta has a cracked frame at that very spot. In 1986 GM realized that the frames were structurally weak right by the steering box and added bracing to make it more structurally rigid. Not sure if it's a bolt in brace or what not, but another idea is the "wonder bar" found stock on IROC-Zs and there are plenty of aftermarket support.

 

Im assuming your car is a unibody, and if it is, you don't want to cut out the piece and put in a new one, it will most likely just crack at the welds again. i would say, a new frame but if it is a bolt in brace, just replace it. but the cutting and welding on the unibody is a bad idea.

 

i don't know, i just know people have done patches before. all camaro's and firebirds since 67 were unibody, and since 82 it was solid unibody (doesn't unbolt at all except engine k-member). The brace i was speaking about was added in 1986 by GM, i'm not sure if it was bolted in or not, but it was added in some fashion to strengthen the frame at the steering box area. The front driver side frame rail is available, but a big pain to remove and install the new one to proper specs (not imposible though).

 

My fathers 86 Berlinetta did the same thing. He heard a popping sound every time he made a right turn. He ended up welding it back together and then welding a small plate on top for reinforcement if I remember correctly. Unfortunately the cars been sold since 98', so I can't take any pictures, otherwise I would. But once he did that, the noise went away and it didn't break for the three or four years he had it afterwards.

 

The brace you are talking about is the "wonder bar" already mentioned. They are the same thing, and yes it was added to stiffen up the steering box area and is a bolt-in piece. I just finished fabbing my own a couple weeks ago, not hard if you have a drill press and a welder. I wouldn't weld the cracks up, I would cut out a good section of frame from a jy car and weld that in place. You don't want to just cut straight through the frame rail though. It's much stronger to make a "Z" cut and weld that in. Basically you start at the top of the rail and cut halfway through the rail vertically, then cut horizontally through the rail for a 3-6" and then finish the vertical cut out the bottom. Do this on both sides and it makes for a much, much stronger weld. You may also want to add some reinforcement plates on top and bottom as well just for the added strength, especially if you take corners like me.

 

was not the wonder bar, only fbody to use the wonder bar were the iroc's, could be wrong but i've read a lot of research on IROCs and owned an 84 and 86 berlinetta's of which neither had the wonder bar, but the 86 did have the extra brace i've read about...this is a frame brace i'm speaking of...althought wonder bar may help this situation from being re-occuring.

 

There are only 2 other braces I am aware of in that area: one bolts from the bottom of the frame rail to the k-member and the other bolts from the side of the frame rail to the underside of the battery box. These also bolted in and the one on the side of the frame rail did bolt up right beside the front 2 bolts for the steering box. I could be missing one though, I've been wrong about things before.

From what I have read on here, the wonderbar was designed to help with your problem. Apparently the 16" wheels that came on the irocs from the factory caused enough stress on the steering box to crack the frame rails.

 

this website will explain what i'm speaking of as i don't know specifically, i'm just aware as this is the second website i found it on, but this one explains it pretty well.

http://berlinetta.info/86.htm

that explains the bracing i'm speaking of for the steering box that was installed on every car after '86. As far as the 16" wheel issue...u gotta think...formulas and i'm assuming trans am's also came with 16s...yet IROCs are the only ones to my knowledge that came with that wonder bar.

I'm not trying to sound know-it-ally, just speaking of the information i've gathered and learned. Just spreading the word. I can very easily be wrong but if this added "brace" can be bolted into his 85, then that might help the patch weld that he would have to do.

 

Only 1LE/WS6 equipped cars came with the wonder bar so far as I know. GM did reinforce the frame member there at the steering box in the later half of the 80's due to the stress fracturing. It is however a pretty easy fix . Box it in all the way around with 1/8" steel plate and re-drill the holes for the steering box. You will want to get an alignment done afterward as it will likely throw off the steering wheel.

-Kevin

 

If you look at some '85 & later F-bodies you'll see these triangle shaped braces. They were painted black and are basically stamped steel angles/gussets with a big hole punched out of the middle. They bolt onto the front/center of the K-member & also onto the front portion of each rail. On the driver's-side, it bolts in along the steering box. I believe all V8 Firebirds & Camaros got them after the revision.

Go to the junkyard & you'll find some. It won't solve you're problem now though, the damage is done. Welding is good, but I'd just buy another K-member from the junkyard & swap them. Its a lot of work, but in order to weld it, you gotta tear apart that area of your car anyway.... i.e. pull the steering box & shaft, clean the area, & then remove enough stuff to be able to reach it for good heat penetration.... Wouldn't it be nice to start fresh with a whole new front suspension? If cash is tight, see if you can patch the crack. Then just buy what you can & rebuild another K-member as time & money permit.

Also, you're both right. The "wonderbar" does partially support the steering box... but its main purpose was to tie both front rails of the K-member together for suspension/nose stiffness. It works kind of like a lower strut tower brace... "triangulation is strength". Only IROC's had them & it wasn't due to 16" rims... it was a requirement for the manufacturers of any cars used in the IROC Racing Series to incorporate chassis parts into prodution cars, beyond the roll cage & SFCs. All of the Camaros were taken off the assembly lines and built exactly the same by IROC Series mechanics. The point was to pit the best race car drivers of the world against each other for the best racing ability, hence the name "IROC" aka "International Race Of Champions". It was kinda like how NASCAR is now, all the same exact car.... Boring! LOL ... You should check out the "IROC Dodge Daytona's" in the 90's. They too had some pretty interesting stuff from the factory to stiffen them up, even if they were a POS... LOL! The reason there were no more IROC 4th Gens was due to Chevy abandoning IROC because of royalty payments & a lack of public interest in IROC. That's when Dodge stepped in, but only for a couple years. The IROC organization, property, & name were recently put up for sale at an auction due to bankruptcy... a sad, undignified death.

Anyway, this is a weak spot on many late 70's & 80's GM RWD vehicles. Full size Blazers & G-Body's also had this problem. There were aftermarket braces out there, but I don't know if anybody still makes them. Hawks, BMR, or SLP might make them. The '81 -'87 RWD Pontiac Grand Prix used a big hollow bar connecting the front framerails, (just under the radiator support), for a quite similar purpose. The Monte, Cutlass, & Regal/GN used F41 bars which bolted from the center of the engine cradle out to the front of each framerail. These served a similar purpose as the F-body braces. Why GM didn't use all 3 braces together on G-body's or the "wonderbar" on all V8 F-Body's is a big ?, but typical of the times.

 

84redta - I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, that's just what I've read on here. And your completely right about the bar only coming on iroc's which didn't make much sense to me either. But then, I don't know as much about the firebirds and their variants as I do about Camaros and I'm still learning about them as well. However, I have always thought of Camaros as the more "muscle car" of the two for whatever reason so I guess in a twisted way it made sense they would have been made to run or handle better?

brother al - What you say about the wonder bar makes perfect sense. I was under the impression that the cracks he was referring to were in the frame rail though, not the k-member.

Would it be possible to get some pics of the cracks? The size of the cracks are going to be the determing factor in what type of repair would be best I would think. I have to agree with the idea of boxing the frame rail after welding the cracks, but she shape of the inside of the rail will make it hard to do. Also, if you use 1/8" plate as was suggested, you will need longer bolts. On mine at least, the bolts only stick out of the box a tiny bit. Adding and 1/8" to the rail's thickness would effectively shorten them, potentially weakenening an already weak area on our cars. Adding plates to both side of the frame rails would add 1/4" total and would necessitate longer bolts for proper strength/thread engagement IMO.

 

naw no disrespect 92RS, as i re-read my post above at the time, it sounded like i was being an *** or know-it-ally, so i wanted to appologize ahead of time. It wasn't starting anything.

The cracks are in the frame rail and not the k member to my knowledge, at least thats what happened to me, if i remember correctly it's right ahead of the steering box towards the front of the car, but it's been a year since i've been under my camaro. Althought i may have read that wrong.

As mentioned above...i would suggest welding/boxing it in, and the possibly checking into seeing if you can create/get one of those braces as it appears to have fixed the issue (haven't heard of that many if any frame cracks after 85), and possibly if the money is decent, check out a wonder bar.

Putting a plate on each side though would be the ultimate (probably overkill) fix, bolts should be a simple thing to figure out, should only be semantics once completed. Only issue with that is i think our subframes are completely boxed aren't they? Anyways, fix the crack, box the frame, and possibly if you can look for a wonder bar and your problems will be taken care of for good...and you will prevail with a suspension upgrade!

 

i believe these are the braces that been added in 86. They are bolt in, you might just have to drill holes in the frame to put them in. Welding up the crack and putting those in should help.

 

I didn't think IROC's came from anywhere near an assembly line, Just as any NASCAR is not built over an actual factory chassis. They're just modeled after the vehicle they represent. I didn't think IROC's were any different.

 

Sorry guys, let me clarify my statements. Taken from assembly lines Let me rephrase that one, they took IROC chassis' off the assembly lines, much like older, traditional Stock Car racing... They used a production car chassis and modified it for racing, within certain regulations. Hence the term Stock Car. IROC was a separate race organization from NASCAR and kinda similar to the old Trans Am Series of the late 60's to mid 70's. There wasn't much stock stuff on them, outside of the basic structure and a few parts of the suspension... LOL! ... This wasn't like the way NASCAR is now, where there is NOTHING from GM, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota in those cars.. LOL. Now the cars are 100% fake. That started in the late 80's for NASCAR when GM and Ford started using front driver body panels as a shell over a prefabbed chassis. Check out any older NASCAR chassis and you'll see the factory frame, floors, firewall, etc.As for K-member, I was refering to the whole front subframe, not just the cradle/K-frame. Its really all one unit until you take a die grinder to them. I was saying that Kamaro Karol should start with another one to avoid future issues, that's all. Welding in a tight spot like that would be a PITA and unless Karol can do it or has a friend, its gonna cost $ for labor.

 

84redta - It's cool, I just wanted to make sure I didn't come off as an *** either. It's hard to get the right meaning across on a forum sometimes.

Yev - That wasn't the brace I was thinking of originally, I was thinking of the one under the battery box. You may be right, but I don't think adding one will be as simple as drilling holes and bolting them in. I just replaced that one on my car and there are nuts welded inside the frame for the bolts to thread into. If the holes/nuts aren't there he may have trouble getting the brace to bolt up. Might be better to weld the brace in in that case since you're already welding down around there anyhow.

 

I have them on my 84 Z28. I didn't put them there and I doubt that the previous owner did either. They look very factory installed to me.

 

Definitely get a wonder bar, when your frame is fixed.

 

MY 84Z has them too.They are original.Im sure many other pre 86 F-bodys have them.

 

Hey, kcgperformance, kind of an ironic sig for this thread huh? haha.

 

No kidding lol Good catch man.

-Kevin

 

There were many additional braces added to the IROC's that were not installed in the Coupe cars. Berlinettas didn't even get rear sway bars from the factory.

The frame-to-crossmember braces that are the basic part of this thread ( pictured by "yevgenievich" ) WERE included on the Z28 in the 82-85 years,........... but were NOT included on the Coupe or Berlinettas. By 85 Chevy had heard enough about frame rail stress cracks and the braces were placed in all ALL F-Bodies after 85. I don't know about the early Firebird coupes - not enough experience with them to be sure !

Aside from the 2 braces from the frame rail to the crossmember there is another significant brace placed under the drivers side "battery tray" that also adds to the rigidity of the drivers side frame rail. The holes are already located in every crossmember and frame rail - so no drilling is needed to install them.

There are also at least 2 other braces installed on the Z28 and IROCS that were not placed on coupes and Berlinettas. Not nearly as significant as the frame rail or battery tray braces - but they help ! 1 was a "rod" type brace that is bolted to the passenger side wheel-well in the engine bay and the other is a longer "rod" type brace that bolts to the lip of the firewall to the passenger side hood hinge.

The wonder bar was not 1LE specific - it was specific to any IROC.

If ANYONE is driving around in an early ThirdGen that doesn't have these frame rail braces in it - buy some braces and get them installed RIGHT AWAY !!!

 

i was underneath an 86 IROC and it also had extra braces in the rear lower control arms, and they looked factory.

 

My 82 has them too from the factory.

 

Litton,
Thanks for your letting me know what your father did. I was hoping someone would reply with an answer of experience and/or at least trial and error. Hearing from someone with the hands on approach makes me feel a lot better with the process and procedure I want to take. Weld and reinforce seems like a practicle and cost effective way to deal with this set back.
Thanks again, much appreciated!
Kamaro Karol~

 

Yo Adrian,

Please explain what you meant by "kind of an ironic sig". I know boys can be boys, so if you were just messin' around having a good time making fun of a girl, I can handle that. If that's ALL you were doing, I'm cool.

Otherwise, please educate and enlighten me, Adrian Camaro. I'm always willing and receptive to learning something new. If you were just poking fun of me, that's all right, I"m actually use to being teased.

Please let me know what you meant. Thanks!

Kamaro Karol~