89FormulaRoth

iTrader: (1)

Does anybody else have slow moving windows? Mine take forever to make the full up and down. What can I do about this?

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'89 Firebird Formula-
K&N Air Filter, Holley Throttle Body Air Foil, Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace, Hotchkis Panhard Rod, Hotchkis Trailing Arms, Kenny Brown Subframe Connectors, GT Auto Assesories aero wing

Josh 91RS

Just about every Fbody owner I know has slow moving windows. Not to mention mine take an extra second to properly seal after the seem to be "up". So if a passenger rolls my window up it seems to be shut...untill it rains. I gotta hurry up and get the door panels off and fix that.

LottaBallsCamaro

Uhh... It's a chevy. There slow from the factory. Thats one thing ford does better.

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Pretty damn smart with cars for 17!
91 Camaro RS, 305 TBI
No mods yet...Hopefully:
Convert to dual-cat with headers and Borla catback exhaust.
Edelbrock MPFI system.
RAM air hood & Z28 wing.
Z28 cam.
ABS system.
Positraction rearend with rear disc brakes.
Rebuilt front and rearend suspension with polygraphite bushings.
Strutbrace.
Rollbar.

Mo

mine used to work fine, then one day started getting really slow, it was like that for about a week but then it was back to normal, still slow, but not rediculous

85F-body

mine are slow and then if you roll the passanger side one up with the door open it takes the window sealer with it and messes that all up and i need a solution to the slow thing too

fb305svs

mine are rdicualsly slow...

Steve

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86 Firebird, LG4, t-tops, 2.73 open rear, SLP 3 inch cat back exhaust, catco cat, 1inch carb spacer.

Current Plans: 342 posi disk 10 bolt rear, rebuilt/fixed up tranny with a trans go shift kit, vette servo, and some other goodies...,cowl induction hood, lowering springs, sfc, and new formula wheels, and tires.
Hopeful list- mild 350, headers, and a t56

My Webpage- Battle of the birds, My own Thirdgen Page, still under construction, http://www.geocities.com/soares711/index.htm

88 Firebird Formula- deseased 2/9/99- 305 TPI, SLP 3 inch exhaust, SLP Intake runners, SLP cam, 3.45 BW disc brake posi, WS6, NOS, and all that good stuff, 13.8 on the motor, 12.89 on NOS and slicks! Hit by what else!?!? a FORD EXPLORER!!!!!!

ajohnson

You can get a new actuator/motor from a bone yard. Although I don't know this for sure, I think that motors from cars other than Fbodies will work. Best bet is to get one from a 4 door and one of the rear window motors (they are used the least) Hope that helps.

Red Demon

sometimes I think of taping the switch down going in grabbing a soda and then coming out to lock the doors up it's so slow..hehehe.. Yah It's also a chevy thing.. Except in my 74 vette which the windows blaze.. suprised the hell out of me after living with the cammy.

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Hey feel free to chat with me on AOL IM if you wanna.. Darkhal2000!
My site,
should <A HREF="http://www.demoncamaro.net

shouldbe" TARGET=_blank>www.demoncamaro.net

shouldbe</A> up shortly.

Jza

Most Corvettes I've been in the windows shoot right up. Makes me wonder about their interchangability.....

Red Demon

good point.. *ponders too

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Hey feel free to chat with me on AOL IM if you wanna.. Darkhal2000!
My site, demoncamaro.net (add the WWW but this thing messes it up) Should be up soon.

LottaBallsCamaro

I had an 89 Oldsmobile that did the same thing. The motor was going bad on it. Probably some GM problem.

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Pretty damn smart with cars for 17!
91 Camaro RS, 305 TBI
No mods yet...Hopefully:
Convert to dual-cat with headers and Borla catback exhaust.
Edelbrock MPFI system.
RAM air hood & Z28 wing.
Z28 cam.
ABS system.
Positraction rearend with rear disc brakes.
Rebuilt front and rearend suspension with polygraphite bushings.
Strutbrace.
Rollbar.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

A few things...

GM power windows are slow... All of them.
GM power windows are even slower in cold weather.
New power window motors are only about $30 each.
Replacing the motors takes about an hour each side.
Replacing the motors won't make them much faster UNLESS your current motor is failing.

If your windows go up and down, they're probably working.


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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6
92 S10
98 Grand Am GT

bigrobb

What about buick window motors? will they interchange? All the ones in buicks I've seen have been fast. Mine only take a few minutes to finish their journey.

89FormulaRoth

iTrader: (1)

Okay, so has anybody actually swapped in some other than original motors that worked better?

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Something to think about, thirdgen windows are huge in comparison to almost any other GM vehical. Chances are that most GM cars use the same motors. Any differences in speed could easily be attributed to the weight of the windows, the age of the motor, and the condition of the lubricant on the window tracks.

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Drew
The lone Thirdgenner of the Apocalypse
predatorman@hotmail.com
My Website
87 Iroc
91 Formula 14.3@98mph
91 RS Convertible
91 Firebird V6
92 S10
98 Grand Am GT

KS91Z28

I replaced the window motor on my Camaro the same time my sister was replacing the window motor in her 91 GrandAm. The part numbers were exactly the same.

89FormulaRoth

iTrader: (1)

KS91Z28, so do her windows move faster than ours?

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'89 Firebird Formula-
K&N Air Filter, Holley Throttle Body Air Foil, Hotchkis Strut Tower Brace, Hotchkis Panhard Rod, Hotchkis Trailing Arms, Kenny Brown Subframe Connectors, GT Auto Assesories aero wing

cy Z28

i'll check with one of my GN buddies, he told me once about some window motor that was soo fast on the g-bodies that it would actually push the window off the track if you held the button down.

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Cody "cyZ28" Young
'84 black on black Z28

355, 5-speed (on the way out. What goes back in, ooohh baby!!)

KS91Z28

89FormulaRoth
No, her windows moved at about the same speed as ours, maybe a little faster since her windows weighed a little less.

KS91Z28

New motors definitely did help the window roll up and down faster though.

MrF-body

ok, here is my 2 cents. first do a little test. probe the wires feeding the window motor with a voltmeter. hardly even reads 11 volts right? now,while still reading the voltage try rolling the window up or down. voltage drops drastically doesn't it?
SOLUTION:relays and heavier wire! the factory wiring is too small and can't supply enough current, if you upgrade the wiring though you must use relays as the switches don't last long if you don't. i did this on my 87 iroc-z and the windows went up in about 17 seconds

Keith5

Uh, no they don't. My Dad's truck is an '88 the windows move at a good speed, my mom's '85 crown vic has 100,000 less miles on it, her windows quit working all the time. Dad has a few crown vic and he has the same problems with them. So it's just not a ford vs chevy thing.

evilho7810

It's not a chevy thing it's a 3rd gen thing. My sister's coupe deville could go up and down twice before my window will go up once. Mr f-body you rewired your windows and they still take 17 seconds!!! Mine take about 10 seconds and my driver side motor is about to die.

Cy z28 your friend is talking about 79 g body motors those things take about 2 seconds to go up.

Tom Batts

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lonsal

iTrader: (2)

My windows aren't slow (about 10 seconds to go up, even with the engine off). But I just figured out why. Mine is a convertible, so the windows have less drag (since the top is down most of the time). Have you tried replacing the switches? Since there is no relay (as someone correctly pointed out), all the current passes through the switch. If the switch is corroded or the contacts worn, less current will pass through it. I often put both my windows up or down simultaneously. They both have the same speed, so I know both switches and motors are working the same.

FiReBReTHa

My Passenger side goes faster than driver side, and sometimes, its winter) after a toll, it wont roll up? wut the hell?



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91 FireBird 305 V-8
no true mods,
ghetto rigged cold air intake,
People dont have a soul, its just something parents made up to frighten little children, like the boogie man, or micheal jackson..."

GheTTo Riggers INC.
We Make Mcgyver look Like Crap

Christos

it would be cool to have some kind of overdrive motor which would whip up the windows turbo fast. down too. it would be suave.

just my 2¢

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/t...rwindows.shtml

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Looking For:

87 IROC-Z 350 TPI
84 TRANS AM 305 H.O.

FAST RS

I replaced my driverside motor paied 110 bucks total on it with labor and the motor and since the day i got my side fixed the assanger side seems sooo slow and seems to get slower every day. At least that one rolls up my driverside broke cuz of my stupid ex hold her hand on the down part of it for about a good hour i went to roll it up it tok 20 mins to go up. it move an inch stip wait a min movve another inch stop it was the most annoying thing in the world. Whts funny is when ever id get pulled over it would work perfectly go figure

FBODY-ADDICT

Well guys my car is an 85 and I find my windows to be slow, but they're rabbits compared to what I've just read. Mine take about 6 seconds to go up(drivers side) and about 8 1/2 seconds on the passenger side( gotta check that out). I've never replaced the pw motor, and asked the previous owner and she say's she didnt do anything to it either.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

the reason the windows are so slow is becuase the windows are huge. compared to grand ams, or any 4door car where the windows are smaller. the window motor has a hell of time lifting up the window because its so long. thats my 2 cents.

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Wide Open Till You See God...Then Brake

Jza

I don't buy that, because Corvette windows are fairly close in size, and yet they shoot up like they just leaned on the lit BBQ grill.

Anybody check on their interchangability yet?

Jza

BTW, I'd rather shave my head or cut off my hand then mess with doors. That's the only part of the car I absolutely abhor working on.

Mongoose

iTrader: (2)

Mine are really slow in cold weather. But they are slower now than when new anyway. The driver's is slower than the passenger side since it is used more. When it finally quits I'll replace it.

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Mongoose-NCTGA-1990 Pontiac Formula/305 TBI-700R4 with Edelbrock Performer TBI intake,TES headers,and STB,K&N,MSD-6AL,Holley laser shot coil,Accel Extreme 9000 wires,Jet Stage 2 chip,TCI shift kit with corvette servo,Richmond 3.73 gear with Auburn 3 series posi,no cat,SLP 3" cat back,Eibach sportline springs,Energy Suspension poly throughout,Lakewood LCA and adjustable panhard bar package,SSM subframe connectors,IROC wonder bar,Tokico 5 way adjustable struts and shocks,Autometer electric fuel pressure gauge,Alpine,JL Audio,MB Quart,92 GTA taillights,92 GTA aero wing and hatch,Steve Spohn LCA relocater kit,MacEwen White face gauges,84 T/A cold air induction air cleaner,Grant Formula GT wheel.

mostafa3k

MrF-Body is correct, i can't see how you all missed this problem. Since your window motor is electrical, it either works or it doesn't. Never in between. Your problem is prolly your regulator, it wears down and can't provide much electricty for your window. Over time as it wears down, your window seems "heavier" to that component, and it moves slowly, sometimes even stopping and needing time to "recharge".

It may also be the rails in your door panel, sometimes they get gunked up and need cleaning.

89FormulaRoth

iTrader: (1)

It's good to see I'm not the only one with this problem. I'll try the things you guys recommended and I'll let you know how it turns out. If I can just get the thing to start...

Stuart Moss

Although this topic would be more appropriate in the electronics section, I offer the following.

I would not categorize all third generation F-bodies as having slow electric windows. I’ve had my 1991 Z28 since about 26K miles, which now has 97K miles, and my windows have always moved at the same velocity. Both driver and passenger side windows take 5.5 (± 0.5 seconds) to fully open or close with the engine off (equating to 12.3 volts) and doors closed. This is a hard top model, and all door panels and weather stripping is stock, in place, and in excellent contition (no rust, no detoriation). All doors are properly aligned and close smootly.

While I do not consider them to move fast (I’ve seen other car makes that fully open/close in <3.5 seconds), as has been posted above, thrid generation windows are larger and heaver than most. But anything over 7 seconds to open/close a window would not be acceptable to me. Since mine have always operated at ~5.5 seconds, I consider that to be the norm. When the time comes that they take more than 7 seconds to open/close, I will find/fix the problem to return operation back to normal (~5.5 seconds).

Of course, with the engine running, I would expect the windows to move a little faster because you’ll have about 2 additional volts available at the motors (~12.2. vice ~14.4 volts due to alternator operation).

That said, I noted some comments posted above that I do not agree with (remember, this is a forum for the free exchange of information), and offer the following only to help others better understand potential problems and solutions (and to learn when I receive new factual information).

Just because something “is electrical” does not mean that it cannot degrade, or gradually wear out over time, and still continue to function. Actually, a motor is more than just “electrical”, but “electrical/mechanical”. For example, bearings or bushings that support the motor armature can become dirty/worn/damaged/corroded/etc. If any of that occurs, it could still allow the motor to function, but will decrease it’s speed and/or torque because of the added resistance. The same would hold true for condition of the commutator (the copper strips on the armature that make contact with the brushes). If it becomes dirty, resistance will increase, thus decreasing the efficiency of the motor. A wire could be loose, creating a poor connection (allowing electricy to pass, but with less voltage/current). Even things that some would consider purely “electrical” can degrade over time, for example resistors (changing value due to age), capacitors (leaking), transistors slowly degrading (leaking, values/specifications changing…). There are many examples.

I presume by “regulator”, you mean what GM sometimes incorrectly calls a “circuit breaker” (PTC). A circuit breaker, when tripped, will completely remove the load from the source, like toggling a switch. What is inside the window motor assembly (as well as the door locks/hatch pull down motor/etc.) is a solid state device, sometimes called a resettable fuse (fuses are generally known as being permanently “open” when their rating has been exceeded for x amount of time) or a resettable overcurrent protector. I am sure that there are other names for this device as well.

Essentially, they operate by allowing a predetermined amount of current to pass. Once their rating has been exceeded for a certain amount of time, their resistance will dramatically increase, thus lowering the voltage/current to ~150mA to the load (essentially "turning off" the circuit). They will not remove all voltage/current to the load. Actually, they act very similar to a Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) thermistor (probably why GM also uses this acronym), which increases in resistance when heated. These resettable fuses are triggered when they reach their rating, or get hot enough. That happens when a certain amount of current passes through them. When they cool, they will reset and allow current to once again pass. The reason for their use in this case is to protect the motor (whether it be the window, hatch, or door lock motor) in case voltage is still being applied when the motor can no longer operate (rotate) (such as when the window reaches its limit, and you continute to hold the switch “on”).

It is easy to see this device in operation. I would recommend performing this “test” with the engine running so you don’t run the battery down. If you continuously operated a window up/down, the internal resettable fuse will eventually get hot due to the window motor drawing current through it. For me, that will take ~10 complete window openings/closings. What happens is the “resettable fuse” will gradually get hot enough to trip. The hotter it gets, the more resistance it will put into the circuit. The more resistence, the weaker the motor becomes. After a certain number of opening/closing operations, you’ll notice that the window will start to move slower. Shortly thereafter, you’ll notice that the window will stop altogether. That is because the resettable fuse has become so hot, that it has put too much resistance into the circuit (motor) for it to operate. Simply waiting a minute or so will allow it to cool enough to restore normal operation.

Both my window motors draw ~7.5 amperes during operation, and >20 amperes when they have reached their upper/lower limit. If you keep voltage applied to the motor when it has reached its limit (the motor will not be able to rotate), there will be >20 amperes passing through the resettable fuse in the motor case, and it will heat up quickly, thus removing most of the voltage/current to the motor to protect it. Why will this resettable fuse trip when operating the window continuously many times? Because, even though the rating of the “resettable fuse” is well above the operating current (~7.5 amperes) of the motor, its operation is such that any current passing through it will cause it to heat up to some extent. Even though it may be rated to trip at, say 12 amperes (or whatever), the resistance curve leading to that point will be somewhat gradual, and then suddenly increase in resistance. The hotter this device is, the more resistance it puts in the circuit. You could correctly presume that the motor will have more voltage/current available (albeit a very small amount) in the winter than in the summer for the same reason.

I personally have not know these devices to “wear down in time” any more than any other electronic component (resistor/transistor/diode/etc.). While it may be possible, I have not experienced any of them to fail. Note that this component will put some resistance into the circuit (typically less than 0.04 ohm), so even when its operating normally, the motor is receiving less voltage/current than it would if this device were out of the circuit (a lot less than one volt difference during normal operating temperatures).

Nevertheless, you do make a good point that, at least to me, would be worth investigating. If everything else checked out okay (see below), first I would open the case and clean the commutator if dirty and test. If there is still no change in operating speed, then I would bypass this device (only two leads). This would connect the motor directly to the power. I could now see if any increase in speed occurs. I could also test it by taking a voltage reading on the load side of this component. I would want to see a voltage drop of less than 0.5 volts, certainly less than 1.0 volts. If it is more than that, then I’d just buy another resettable fuse (about $1 + S/H).

I do not agree with having to increase the factory wiring size (at least the size that I have on my ’91 Z28). I currently have 14 gauge (metric 2.0) wire for most of the circuit. There is 12 gauge (metric 3.0) wire for most of the feed run from the circuit breaker/fuse assembly to the switch connectors at the center console. 14 gauge is fine for the run from the switch to the window motor, which draws ~7.5 amperes at 12.2 volts. Changing wire size (gauge) will only change the voltage drop due to the change of the resistance for the length of wire. Increasing 14 to 12 gauge will only reduce the voltage drop ~ 0.4 volts for this circuit (figuring 8 amperes for a 29’ length. Perhaps mrf-body’s switches, or any one of the several connectors in this circuit, contributed to the problem by having poor contacts).

FYI, 14 gauge wire will pass 8 amperes 14.5 feet with a 0.3 voltage drop, or 29 feet with a 0.6 volt drop. Figuring conservatively with the 29 foot length, I would then expect to see about a 0.6 volt drop due to the resistance of this 14 gauge wire. I cannot tell the difference of window speed based on only a half volt difference to the motor. Remember, vehicle voltage often swings from ~14.2 volts while not idling to ~13.3 volts during idle (there are many, many variables that will affect this, so don’t take these figures as a “hard and fast rule”, but simple as a guide).

I’m not saying that mrf-body did not see an improvement with his modifications, but only the reason for the increase in window speed was not due to an increase of less than one volt increase to the window motor (although there was no “before” window speed time given, so we don’t even know what, if any, improvement was made…).

As mostafa3k stated, and being the easiest to check, this is a very good idea, and is what I’d check first. Don’t forget to inspect the window/motor linkage. Is it lubricated, dry, rusty, bent, or out of alignment? If for some reason something is out of alignment, the motor will not only have to move a heavy window, but also overcome the additional resistance of the linkage out of alignment. Removal of the window may be the only way to be sure that the linkage can move freely, and that there is nothing binding.

With the door panel off, you will have removed some of the resistance the window sees, so operation should be a little easier.

Does window speed increase a lot when raised/lowered with the door open? If so, perhaps the door alignment is off, which causes excessive window resistance against the weather stripping.

I’d spray some silicone spray in all of the areas that the glass touches to help reduce friction.

[This message has been edited by Stuart Moss (edited February 11, 2001).]

Jza

Questions? Okay, class dismissed. Next week we'll go over incorrect brake bias. Don't forget your asbestos masks and that we'll meet in the Suspension forum.

j/k. Just saying that was a very thorough analysis.

Duck

Stuart Moss --yes, you're right about the power window speed. My '92 Z-28 windows go up in about 5-seconds, probably because the car was used for eight years as a police highway patrol and the windows rarely went down. On the other hand my '87 takes more than 12-seconds and is obviously struggling to do so, indicating it's overdue for serious cleaning and refurbishment. My theory is that both cars should have the same window speed if both are in similar condition.

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Duck_Hawaii
87 IROC-Z5.7
92 Z28-5.7 Anniversary

capt2749

What is a good spray lubricate for the regulator and lock to us.