sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

I have had the idea to make my own fiberglass fenders for a while now since I have a bit of experience with it and mold making. I'm planning on making just the unmodified stock style fenders of my 1986 Trans Am for now. I'd like to see how exactly they come out and how well the mounting works before I try to modify them with fender flares and such. I guess what I'd like to know is this something other people would be interested in? I know there's a couple of places you can get them for our cars, but most of the time they're for Camaros and not the style of my car. If there seems to be a "market" for them I'll spend more time in making a stronger mold so that I can keep producing them. As I said before, if this initial fender works out good, there could be a multitude of alterations I could do for someone wanting a nice fiberglass fender. What are your guy's thoughts?

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Incorporating functional vents for brake cooling might be nice.. Lighter weight as well, but as far as I know the stock steel fenders are already pretty light as is..

bestracing

I think that is great that you are doing this for your car and seeking business opportunities as well. To be honest though I don't think the fiberglass fenders are a good idea for cars that see a lot of road use. That said I can see where custom fender designs and racing applications would be a better choice when using glass fenders.

Years ago with thin fiberglass parts they would flex and you would get cracking in the paint. I know newer paints are more flexible and hold up better now when applied on fiberglass parts. So that isn't as big of a concern as it once was.

I hope your work turns out good and good luck

lunati397

get rid of the antena hole and anything has to be a better fit than whats available now

kentuckyKITT

iTrader: (4)

These already exist...marketed to the Knight Rider car builders. This vendor has even re-created the cowl-induction hood top and bottom in fiberglass...worth a look I guess, but I'm not posting links. Search "knight rider fender" on the bay.

Steve86TA

iTrader: (57)

What would be the benefit? fenders are extremely light already. To me the cost would out weigh the benefits.

T/Aperformance

I think you have a good idea, I personally wouldn't mind having Modified ones made in fiberglass or carbon fiber in the same style as the custom ones I made for my car.
Steve86TA is right there would not be much benefit with weight as for as something stock in fiberglass for the street, But something custom would be worth it. I had thought about making molds from my fenders and quarters

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the input everybody. I do understand that the weight difference isn't going to be much. I myself am trying to lose every pound I can off the front end, it can't hurt. The benefits I see would be never worrying about rust (Wisconsin) and hopefully with creative bracing that doesn't add much weight, I can make the fenders a little more rigid. I realize why the fenders are so light, it's because they used extremely thin sheet metal. Every time I work on the car I'm afraid I'm going to dent my fenders if I lean on them. Those are just my thoughts.

T/Aperformance

If you really want to drop weight maybe think about a fiberglass or CF front front end. the one on our cars are very heavy,

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

Ya, I've thought about that. My goal in the end is have essentially everything from the doors forward some sort of composite material. The finished product may end up having something like the base material fiberglass and then a few layers of carbon fiber to create a lighter, more rigid structure. I would paint anything carbon fiber. I don't love the look of carbon fiber since the look really seems to have been adopted by a lot of imports and seems too boy-racer like. The issue that is keeping me from doing the bumper at this point is the my bumper is really screwed up. The previous owner had pushed the car around since it wasn't running so the bumper cover is cracked and has a big dent at the tip. Maybe if I find the same bumper in better shape for cheap I'd make that also.
Another object that everybody seems to agree could lose some weight are the doors. That may be a big project for me to try and figure out sometime. I think most would agree that a fiberglass door is not very safe, neither is removing the door bars which some people do to lose weight. Most also want to keep the functionality of the window. The only way I see to create a lighter and safer door is to either extensively modify it or create and entirely new door and re-skin it with some sort of lightweight composite. My first thoughts on doing that would be create a tubular door frame with all of the necessary mounts for the door skin, windows, and such. I haven't researched that or looked thought about the design of it much, but it's just the first idea that came to me.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Agree on doors and front end. Those are big pieces that could do good to lose weight. The doors would need a complete re-design from the ground up. As long as the door looks the same from the outside and fits right and the window fits as well, then whatever else inside doesn't matter. In fact, newer more efficient and reliable components could be used (power window and door lock motors, lock rod, latch mechanism, better sound deadening and less harsh closing, etc.)

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Fiberglass doors would be very dangerous on the street.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Even if there was an adequate inner tubular frame? (sort of like how a roll bar protects the driver somewhat)

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

I don't think fiberglass doors would be dangerous at all on the street with tubular doors. I actually think the tubular doors would be safer. Do they usually make roll bars out of tubing or stamped steel? Which would you rather rely on in a rollover accident, your stock roof, or a full roll cage? The tubing is safer, but a full cage in every car would add way too much cost and weight for everyday driving.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

On another note, I think carbon fiber doors would be much more dangerous than fiberglass. Carbon fiber by itself has a tendency to just shatter, that's one benefit of the fiberglass. It wont turn into deadly shards like carbon fiber would. If you would still see that as an issue, it could be easily resolved by a layer of sheet metal. No shards would have the momentum to cut through a layer of steel, fiberglass, and then the interior door panel.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

By the time you brace the door for windows and structural support/saftey, you probably won't be saving much weight.

Certianly not enough to make it worthwhile on the street.

Now a full race car with none functioning lexan windows, sure.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

A good exampler are corvettes, compare the wieght of an all fiberglass corvette to a camaro of the same year.

For example 2001 model corvette 3,200 lbs
2001 Camaro 3,400 lbs.

Not much weight savings, once you make them safe for the street.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

I'd take 200 pounds off my car in a heart-beat. I also believe the camaros of those years have a lot of plastic body panels, which correct me if I'm wrong, the Corvette has moved to plastics also instead of fiberglass. I think a better comparison would be the weight of our cars to the weight of the c4 vettes. I'm not sure of C4's weight off hand.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

You won't get a 200 lb savings from just the doors. ESP if you add reinforcements.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

Never said I thought I'd be able to get 200 lbs out of doors. The stock doors barely weigh 200 lbs together. I just said I'd like to get 200 lbs out of my car, which you called insignificant. I'm sure you could get close to 200 lbs out of a car with composite bumpers, hood, fenders, and doors.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

What I am saying us that by the time you add strentgh and functioning windows to fiberglass doors, the weight savings will be insignificant.

You can drop 200lbs a lot easier then by building fiberglass body parts, and be safer, then 'glass doors.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

As I said, it's just an initial idea. I'm just wondering what makes a tube frame, fiberglass door less safe to you? Also, you wouldn't know what the actual weight would be until it's actually done. My goal for my car is to get it down as close to 3000lbs as possible. I know there's other ways to remove weight, but if I had the choice, I'd rather keep my factory ac and remove the weight through fiberglass panels. There's certain things other people remove that I'd rather not, since it would remove creature comforts.

pmkls1

There are companies that make complete carbon fiber doors for certain vehicles. When I had a 240sx I looked at carbon fiber doors and a rear hatch that maintained full function like power windows and a rear wiper. Corvettes and Cadillac XLRs also have completely composite doors that pass safety standards so I would think that the idea isn't that outlandish. I think that the fiberglass fender idea is a good idea, especially for those wanting custom features like flares and ducts etc.

T/Aperformance

Well for the doors I would do them in two pieces, inner and outer using a fiberglass and CF. Like forth gens are made in two pieces a plastic outer, and what ever the inner is, Run the center crash bar inside between the top door hinge and the latch, really shouldn't be to hard to make. And if you wanted you could sell the pieces so your customer could easily install the window and such from there doors, and sell them the adhesive also

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the idea. I figured there could be a way to make them since many modern cars use composite panels. Once I get my fenders made I'll have to get a door from the junkyard or something and try to see if I can figure something out.

bestracing

Kind of a bad example because the doors and fenders on a 2001 Camaro are composite plastic. Only difference externally is hood, hatch and quarter panels.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

True, lets try this,

1988 camaro 3220 ( yeah right, but thats what its listed as )

1988 Corvette 3280 !!!!!!!!


But again my point was, when making fiberglass body parts, that are suitable for the street, the weight savings goes away quickly.

Trying to get fiberglass doors with Functioning windows and crash protection, the weight savings will be minimal at best.

I've never seen a car at the track with 'glass doors and functioning Glass windows.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

It probably doesn't exist but it's possible, other cars do it... Our doors are just old school and heavy because at the time it was probably cheaper to use steel and make them the way they are.. Would be cool to have the doors lighter, using newer technology like modern power window motors and power lock motors, and to make space for a door speaker (This would put the speaker lower and mounted more in the center of the car for better weight distribution, albeit a very small amount, but the primary purpose would be to have better sound quality). There are many ways to improve here.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

glastek sells fiberglass doors for 3rd gens $690 a pair.

VFN has them for $684

Unlimited Products has them with "inner door structure' for 199 ea. They list them at 12 lbs.



None are capable of having functioning windows though.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

They probably don't have functional windows, or a crash bar, as this site is mostly race only parts.

Here's a link to their site: http://www.glasstek.com/

I think the point of this thread is to discuss a "streetable lightweight door alternative" to our current heavy doors, and the race-only fiberglass doors currently on the market.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

According to the thread title its about fiberglass fenders, which would be a good option for those wanting custom mods like vents, but again, not for weight savings.

And yes, I mentioned those doors are race doors, No one makes replacement Fiberglass doors that can have functioning windows and crash support for any car. And there is a good reason.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

My iroc wieghs 3280 completely stock

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Really? I thought most were closer to 3500lbs.

People talk like getting them down to 3000lbs is tough.

What are your cars specs, AC? T top? etc....

Podium

iTrader: (2)

89 Iroc
hardtop
t5/305
AC
manual windows
manual seats
16 inch wheels
It has power locks and hatch but thats it. Still has smog and all that stuff. Original 72xxx mile car Im taking apart lol.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Great spec'd car! hardtop+t5+ manual windows and seats, I like it!

Hope you got goodintentions with the tear down!

Have you actually weighed the car? how much gas, and I assume that was without driver.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

The T5 is a heck of alot lighter tranny than the 700R4.. he could easily get down to 3000lbs from that starting point.. Just fiberglass hood, aluminum heads, and AC delete would be almost 150lbs off. I'm actually not too far off from him at 3350lbs with a full tank of gas, two sets of SFC's and STB, relocation bracket for LCA and PHB, but I've done tons of weight reduction already and cannot really do much more except for aluminum heads.

Podium

iTrader: (2)

No driver. Car had 1/8 or 1/4. Weighed on scale at recycling place.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Fill up that tank and it will be quite heavier lol

1 Gallon of gasoline at 72 degrees weights 6.25 pounds. So 15 gallons would weigh about 93.75 lbs.

3rd gen gas tanks are 15.5 gallons, so that's like 97lbs for a FULL tank of gas. 1/8 of that is about 12lbs, so your car at a full tank of gas weighs approximately 85lbs more than it did at 1/8 tank, which would put your car at about 3365lbs with a full tank.

That's still pretty light for a stock IROC, my 86 was about 3600lbs stock (ttop, 305tpi, 700r4 auto, power everything, AC, etc.)

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

hellz_wings, what kind of weight reduction have you done so far?
I always had the idea that my car was in the 3500 lb range at lease. My Trans Am has t-tops, power windows, locks and hatch, carbed 305, and 700r4. I know the 700r4 is hog since I've had to pull a few out of my other vehicles before. My car also has the WS6 RPO so i don't know if that would really make much of a difference in weight. I really wish my car had the T5, but I'm working on an engine build right now and I don't think the T5 will hold up. I'm aiming for close to 400rwhp and a little more than that torque. Nothing extreme, but should propel it decently. I'm definitely going with aluminum heads to save some weight and help with the higher compression I'll be using. It looks like I'll be going with the T56, but really wish that I could use a T5.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I have alot to list.. and I am a firm believer of 'every little bit counts':
2" cowl fiberglass hood
aluminum waterpump
smog/EGR deleted
edelbrock headers with smog tubing cut off
AC system deleted completely (installed non AC heater box as well)
aluminum accel TPI intake manifold, AS&M runners, ported plenum
9th injector and piping removed
mini starter
window washer pump/hose/bottle removed
MOMO racing steering wheel
UMI tubular a-arms
LS1 front brakes
removed spare+jack (and placed lighter optima red top in rear)
aluminum 3" driveshaft
aluminum rear drums
Delphi 670 lightweight steering box
Antenna delete
And then I have added tons of stuff like SFC, STB, welded on brackets, etc.. And all suspension is all tubular (except k-member) which I think is lighter but I'm not sure..

What I have left to do:
aluminum front crash bar (have just waiting to install)
aluminum heads (when 383 engine swap goes in)
Lexan ttops
4th gen seats with 3rd gen sliders (weight reduction if non power and non leather)
Tubular k-member
Aluminum hubs
dropped spindles
And I lost 20 pounds since November lol

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Why the dropped spindles? I always here they are not good for geometry and performance driving.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for sharing that information. I also believe in the idea of every little bit counts, especially off the front end. The further forward the weight comes off, the more each pound helps the balance of the car. Moving the battery to the trunk is a good idea, I may have to try and do that before I get the car back on the road in spring. Do the LS1 brakes weigh less than the stock brakes? I know our stock ones are a pretty generic GM piece. My winter vehicle is a 93 s10 and i put new brakes on it the same time as the car, and they're exactly the same.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

I thought dropped spindles are better for geometry than drop springs because they don't mess with any of the actual suspension geometry. I was always under the impression that drop spindles are the correct way to lower. Where did you find drop spindles anyways? I've never been able to find them anywhere.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Belltech used to make them.

They are good because they do not affect ride quality.

The guys over at pro-touring.com, where they make old cars handle better then new, hate them. They say it does mess up geometry.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

On the contrary, they are BETTER for performance driving, if you can fit them without issues.

Advantages:
-About 4.2lbs lighter per side (unsprung weight reduced in total is 8.4lbs)
-They lower the car 2" which lowers the center of gravity by this much too
-It does NOT change the geometry at all like lowering springs do
-It does not require a bump steer kit caused by excessive lowering from lowering springs, or even extended ball joints (I have ex. ball joints btw)

Disadvantages:
-Good luck fitting these with wider wheels than stock.. It puts the outer tie rod VERY close to the wheel. If you want to run wider wheels, unless you are running I think 18's or more then the outer tie rod will hit the wheel.
-If you have tubular a-arms, then the spindles might come in contact with the sway bar endlinks because of how they are mounted on the a-arm (more on that here starting post #27: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...g-vetruck.html )

You can get these from Racecraft ( http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?m...products_id=70 )
They are pretty much the only vendor who makes these now but they offered a solution to the "gusset" problem where it would contact the sway bar end link. I called them awhile back and they would do it for 50$ more. My only concern is now they wrote this on the product page,

***NOT INTENDED FOR STREET OR ROAD RACE***

This worries me slightly, but perhaps it is just one of those "legal disclaimers" so they don't get in trouble with the law, or perhaps they had a failure. I don't know but I will call them before I buy and find out why they added this.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

According to the guys on PT they Do affect Geometry. I know for example on 2nd gen f bodies, it really messes it up. Not sure about 3rd gens.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Yep our suspensions are different that's why. On other cars it might affect it, but on our cars (modified McPherson strut) all it really does it relocate where the hub mounts to the spindle 2" lower, everything else remains the same.

Now ofcourse, you'd probably want to lower the rear as well so that involves a bunch of other things like LCARB, adjustable PHB, adjustable TQ arm to fix pinion angle, better shocks, etc.

sugarsn10

iTrader: (2)

If you have a double a-arm suspension shorter than stock spring can really start to mess things up. I'm sure it's the same for ours too. Every other high performance place I've read from say drop spindles are better. Lowering springs are great too, but you need to change everything else on the suspension to get the geometry back into spec. Look at lifted chevy trucks. You lift them too much and they get really bad positive camber. They fix this with longer a-arms. I suspect drop springs do the exact opposite, which is where their issue is.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Spend some time at pro-touring.com

The serious classic cars that burn corners are located there, and they all hate drop spindles.

It might be a little different for our cars, but there are still drawbacks.

The Not for street or road rce use disclaimer is enough for me to stay away.

Also look at the serious cars here, any of the cars that road race or do SCCA, I 'm willing to bet none of them have drop spindles.


But we are getting waay off course. Start a thread about them in the suspension forum.