...on a 92 Firebird--or an equivalent model who's panels are properly aligned. My door is mis-aligned, and needs to be moved forward about 1/8" or maybe 3/16". Before I start work on it, I'd like a close up pic of the area just in front of the mirror--where the hood, fender and drivers side door come together to see how they relate when in the stock position. Looking on the passengers side of my own is suspect because if the fenders have been messed with over the years, they may both be off a little. If yours is misaligned, don't post a pic unless you want to screw me over....LOL A pic of the bottom of the door where it meets the fender and rocker panel would also be very helpful if you're a good Samaritan with a camera.

 

give me a few minutes I just bought a new phone and have been looking for an excuse to play with the camera

 

Here's my top of the door. You can see the problem. The PO messed with the hinges and didn't get them back in the stock position. The thumbnail is upside down, but flips when I click on it. Not sure why. I just used my iPad to take these.

 

...and the bottom

 

Whole door section...

 

I don't have access to my car right now, and I just have whole pictures of my car that won't help. But the gap at the front and rear of the door should be identical, and the front bottom edge of the door should line up perfectly with the front edge of the piece under the door.

It looks like the front half of your door needs to come up very slightly (1/8th inch or just under?)

 

It may need to come up a 16th or so, but mostly it needs to go forward. The door is pretty well level. Don't think there's much diff between front and back as far as that goes. The body side of the top hinge is moved toward the back of the car about 1/8, and the bottom hinge is shimmed on the side against the door to match. The footprint of the hinge does not touch the door, something is between the two, I figure a shim. They are no longer welded to the door, but bolted by the PO. My hope is I can just move the top hinge back and take the shim out of the bottom to match, but things are rarely that simple. Could be they just got tired of messing with it and said good enough. If that's the case, I'll just finish it right. Worst case I have to take it to a body shop to have them welded on properly, and I can't imagine that would be horribly expensive.

 

It sounds like theres been some damage there that wasnt properly repaired.so they used shims. These cars have some pretty wide gaps from the factory...Theres not a lot of adjustment to begin with and that may be the best they could get it...which hinge is it thats had the welds removed? I gotta tell ya I've done a lot of doors form a lot of cars and these are about the worst to get good gaps out of...I just finished mine and it took me a whole day to get the drivers door where I wanted it and a half day to do the pass door and I've been doing this stuff for over 35 years...You could be opening a big can of worms here but if your sure you want to take it on I can go into detail about gapping a camaro and without using shims but you'll have to start by removing the fenders.

 

Both hinges are bolted to the door now. According to the title history, the car has never been wrecked, but something happened, don't know what. Could be it got backed into in the driveway or something like that that didn't get reported on insurance. Not sure if I want to deal with taking the fender off or not, don't you have to take to hood off to unbolt the fenders? The door itself doesn't look deformed or dented in anyway, neither does the body in any place--crap just isn't lined up right. Part of the problem is, since the door isn't lined up, there's a small gap at the front corner of the window that air/water can get through. I could move the window forward somewhat to compensate, but I'd rather fix the door. I had to fix a pin and roller on my 4th gen Camaro and found out it was best to make one adjustment at a time when lining it back up. It sounds like either buying or making a door dolly would be a very good idea.

 

Replacement hinge kits are generally bolted on. They were prolly wore so bad a pin and bushing kit wouldn't fix them. Hood has to come off to remove the fender, or at least it should. Post a pic of the door gap at the rear, it should be in the 1/4" range or so. From the looks of it, your door needs to come up a bit and forward.

 

That was one of my thoughts too. Replacement hinges that weren't put on right. If they're replacements, they went ahead and painted them to match the car, which I probably would have done if I did it. But anyway, here's my rear door gap. A little less than 1/4 in most spots.

 

IDK, on second thought, these look like originals. They are too crappy to be replacements. Here's the lower hinge.

 

And the upper. Couldn't get my iPad in there to get a good pic, but you can see the bolt heads and see where they've replaced the pins with "new".

 

Looks pretty tight to me. Here's mine.

Gaps at front and back and both doors should be consistent. Deadbodyman is right, it's a real PITA to get them aligned well. I fiddled with mine for hours.

 

Yeah, looks about right. My gap at the rear is a little closer than yours, which makes sense since my front is more open. I figure it's going to be a pain, that's why I've been putting it off for 6 mo's. Im also sitting around thinking what kind of apparatus I can build for my jack to use as a door dolly. Don't want to spend $100 plus on a new one to use once, and I don't want to wrangle a heavy door like this on ropes all afternoon trying to get it lined up. I can't weld, so I'm going to have to work something out of wood and pad it well.

 

You may have to enlarge the front hole on the upper hinge on the body side. The two rearward are oversized but the front is just the size of the bolt, or a hair larger. Makes for almost no adjustment. I think they drilled them after getting them where they belong in assembly. I have seen replacement hinges with only the two rear holes.

 

That was my thought too. But, apparently whoever did this job must have enlarged the holes, otherwise how did the upper hinge get moved backward about 1/8" or so on the body side? If they did, it should be easy to just slide it back to it's stock position. But either way, I can file it out if I have too. I just hope I can get it to where it works, no matter what I have to do. That bottom one worries me because it looks like it's shimmed. You can take the shim out, but I'm still wondering WHY it was shimmed? Was somebody just in a hurry and sloppy, or is there a darker reason?

 

You guys are forgetting, these doors are structual pieces to the unibody.Thats why there is little/no adjustment.Enlarging the hole will allow the door to move as the car flexes.Affecting the integrity of the unibody.

I dont see a shim, but regardless a shim would move the door outward.Perhaps to level it with the fender.I would look at how the fender is attached below the rocker.Sometimes those mounting points get damaged/bent from careless jacking.Often times this will push the fender out.Making the door look like its inward.Hence the reason for the shim.

 

Sorry, I'm just not buying it will in any way compromise the integrity of the body. A properly adjusted door has no points of contact besides the hinges, latch post and gaskets. With the exception of the wedges for T top cars. It should "float" in the opening. If the hole is opened just enough to move the door where it belongs, it will still have a stop point in compression at the edge of the hole. They better recall these hinges before third gens start falling apart.
Please explain to me further the detrimental effects it can have on the car.

 

No no, the shim--if it's there--is at the hinge to door connection on the lower hinge. The hinge footprint does not touch the door, you can see there is something causing it to "float" above the door, despite being bolted tightly. You can't really see this in the picture. This causes the bottom of the door to be moved backward, and the top hinge is moved backward at the hinge to body connection to match--moving the entire door backwards about 1/8" or so when the door is shut. Hence the pictured mis-alignment. Understand what I mean? There is no bending of the rocker or fender that I can see, and the fender/rocker seam is pretty close to stock. You can see it in the pics.

 

The reason the shim is there is to get a better alighnment,if the door sticks out a little at the bottom then they put a shim at the top to bring the top out then adjust the striker to get the whole door in the jamb a little deeper. There is a tool that actually twists the door to make a better fit. S-10s and full size chevy trucks have the same welded hinges and are adjusted the same way,bending and twisting the door...adjusting these doors can drive you crazy . To remove the fender or loosen it enough to slide back and close up the front gap isnt to bad it can be done without removing the hood...first remove the three 10mm bolts holding the hoods hinge to the fender lift the hinge and push it over the lip of the upper frame rail the adjuster for the rear hood hight will hold it in place but be sure to use a hood prop just in case. loosen all the bolts and especially the nuts holding the bumper cover on,you dont have to remove them but loosen them up a lot. I think you can get by by sliding the fender back a little to close the front gap to match the rear...

 

I forgot your hinges are bolted on at the door so you are right a shim there will bring the back of the door up or down depending on whether its at the top or bottom hinge.. heres a link to the work I'm doing on my Iroc and a lot of the problems I had to cure.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/repl...3-newpost.html

 

You are 100% correct,these doors are no different than any other with the exception of the welded hinges, GM was just trying to save a little money.

 

I think both fenders need to be moved backwards a little to be honest. The door to fender gap on the passenger's side is slightly off too I think, though it's nowhere near as bad as this drivers side door problem, and that door doesn't look like it's ever been messed with. It might be off by 1/32 or so. My question then is after I move the door forward maybe 1/8", if I move the fenders back a little, (maybe 1/32-ish?) how much issue is it to move the nosepiece with them?

 

Its in the service manual, i dont have a copy of it.Never said it would compromise it, just affect it.In other words the body will flex more in relation to the door, if said door can move.No matter how little.Drive your car over a bump/dip w/ the door open, as oppossed to the door closed & see the difference.

Well if the hinges are bolted to the door (& it looks like it), those are replacements.Since the originals are welded on.Hard to tell looking at upsidedown pics, but it looks like the the lower hinge/door even has 4 bolts, which matches the pic posted by Joe Tag.Regardless, aftermarket hinges use bolts.I remember the service manual instructing the repairer to weld the replacement hinges.So maybe your hinges are not in the exact spot as the OE's.

 

Yeah, I know they aren't in the same place, that's why the door is misaligned! But the lower hinge only has three bolts. They may or may not be replacements, if they are, they are awful crappy looking and have been on there a while. IDK why the pictures are upside down. Of my iPad the thumbnails are, but they flip when you click on them. But I have no idea why. I guess the simplest solution is to flip the iPad the other way next time I take a pic, but even like they are now they are right side up when I take them.

 

Neither should have any bolts on the door side though.The heavy rust kinda gives you a hint also.

Yep, probably need to rotate the ph, same thing happens w/ mine too.

 

The passenger side hinges have very little if any rust on them. That makes me think those drivers side hinges could be originals that have been removed for some reason, drilled out, and bolted back on. It's possible the door was damaged at some point and the original hinges had to be taken off for some reason. That doesn't totally make sense, but it also doesn't totally make sense that those are replacement hinges considering how old and cruddy they are. Who knows. I know who the previous owner is, and have FB'd him, but never have gotten a response. He lives in Arizona.

 

I kinda chuckled to think you believe the hinge will move around from it's bolted position while driving. Think of the connection points and which is the weakest. The hinge side of the door is pretty flimsy metal as is the jamb at the striker and the latch area. Three bolts torqued to 40 ft/lbs or so will have a lot of friction on the hinge to jamb. You can grab the striker with a pair of pliers and bend the jamb. I defy you to move the hinge the same way once it's bolted. Better yet, put a jack under a door and have at it. See where it gives. You will raise the car and crumple the door before that hinge moves. The weakest link will always give first.

 

True. Esp since the hinges on mine have already been moved, that's why I have the problem I have!

 

BTW, does the wiring harness disconnect in such a way that you can completely remove the door? On my 4th gen Camaro it doesn't. That made the job a lot harder when I had to repair a hinge and leave the door hanging on ropes. I'm not doing that again this time.

 

You would have to unplug it from the motor and lock actuators, open the clips that hold it to the door and pull it out. There is no easy unplug way to do it like a single connector if that's what you're asking.
As far as your rusty hinges, a few thoughts are they had a bare metal replacement like the one in the pic I posted and didn't prime or paint them right or at all until rust set in, or took some off a donor and bolted them to your door.

 

This is what the wiring harness for the doors look like. Easiest to make out on the RH side. It's a pain but doable.

 

Thats another thing that didnt make any sense to me,most cars have a plug in the pillar but I looked and looked and couldnt find one so I had to disconnect all the plugs inside the door and pull the harness out...with most cars you dont even have to remove the door panel to pull the door.

 

other than the nuts holding the nose to the fender everything else holding the nose on are just push pins so its really ez and it will go where the fenders go.but dont forget the little L bracket by the headlights ,that'll keep everything from moving if it isnt loosened up good.

 

Yup ,thats exactly what I was thinking, I see it all the time where someone just spray cans over bare metal without any prep or epoxy primer...

 

Nah, not going to that much trouble. I'm going to try to build a door dolly. You may have hit on it about the hinges too. That makes sense. Anyway, I think my questions are pretty much answered. This thread has been very helpful. Thx for the advice. When I tackle this, I'll try to post here to update. Should be in a couple weeks or so when I'm on vacation and have time to mess with it.

 

You didnt get many pics so heres a pic of mine...its in my shop right now getting ready to paint.I've got two whole days just in hinge work and gapping on my doors alone the gaps are a snug 1/8" (about the thickness of a paint stick) the stick fits snug enough to hold itself in...

 

heres a couple more of that side...

 

Are you ready for me to make you worry a little? A paint stick is exactly what I used to gap my doors the first time. (notice I said FIRST) All was well until paint was laid down. Both doors rubbed the fenders at the top and chipped the paint on the doors. Nothing but OEM doors and fenders. Gaps were dead square and even from top to bottom. Contact was on the lip on the inside of the fender. Paint was pretty heavy though, 7 coats of paint and 3 of clear. Just thought I'd give you a heads up.

 

I'd like a shade more than 1/8" just to be safe. I'd be happy with 1/4", or just a bit under., maybe 3/16"-ish. I'm worried about the clearance too. But those are great pics, thx to both of you!

 

If deadbodyman's car is anywhere near right, it really does look like my fenders need to come back a hair, maybe as much as 1/8". Your hood and fenders are a lot closer to the windshield than mine are. I'll tackle the door first because I've got a gap at the window guide that has GOT to go! After that I'll work on the fenders, that might be a bear too because I'll also have to adjust the headlight doors and maybe the hood.

 

I'm so glad you guys brought that up and your absolutely 100% right.These gaps are way to tight to paint .... If I was to paint it it would cetainly rub and chip the paint and IF I was lucky enough to make it past opening a door and not get a chip it would wiggle just enough on a bumpy road to rub the edge clean to the metal for sure....But,I do it a little differently.... I will be painting and buffing every panel off the car THEN putting it back together with the stick again so it'll still be an 1/8" gap......
The paint I use is nothing less than awsome its a custom mix solid red ,whats funny is the company only made one red so its simply called "RED", and its the most awsome red I've ever seen...I just finished a "black" car .....Thats what its called,"black" but its one of the blackest blacks Ive seen

 

Hold on a min Ex...This is only to show what one CAN look like. I've been at this a long time so for me its all about the tightest gaps possible, the best fitting doors youve ever seen, because gaps and fitment are how you show your experiance ....I spent two solid days fitting my doors...everybody that knows these cars know they dont come any where near this ,3/8" gaps would be considerd nice n tight... for you it does look like all you really need to do is slide the fender back a bit mabee adjust the hood a tad but its not really hard at all...as a matter of fact I'm putting on a left fender tomorrow I can take a few pics showing where all the bolts are and adjusters etc...You shouldnt have to mess with the lights at all, I dont think ,its been a while since I worked on a T/A but isnt the hood notched out at the corners for the lights...
Where exactly is that air gap that tells a lot...

 

The door is going to have to be moved, there's no doubt about it. It's way too close at the back, and way too far at the front. The window guide has a gap of actually over 1/8" where it's supposed to be meeting the weatherstripping. The glass meets the rubber part of the way, but a little above the guide it separates. I've already move the window a little to compensate, and may have a bit more, but the fact that the door is mis aligned is a sad fact of life. I took the panels off and used the passenger side door as a guide to align my driver's window, and had pretty good luck. The PO had it way off target. As far as the headlights go, I figure if you move the fenders you have to move the bumper, and if you move the bumper, you MAY have to adjust the headlight tubs. MAY that is. I think if I move the fenders, it won't be more than 1/16" or 1/8 at the MOST, so you're probably right. There's enough gap there between the bumper and lights to allow for that movement now. Right now there's about a 1/16" difference between the front and rear door gaps on the passengers side, so it's in good shape, maybe just a little fender movement to make it perfect. I figure if I can move the driver's door 1/8" or so, I can nudge the fender back a little to make it perfect. 1/4" all around would make me happy.

 

it sounds like you got it figured out...let us know how it came out and if you have any trouble let us know...

 

Heres another little door tip just for the 3rd gen guys...
I removed the rocker cover (fiberglass flair) completely then removed the fender. it all had to be done anyway because its being restored...(not everybody wants to adjust doors this way) Then the striker has to come out..my doors are already gutted so they're as light as they can be and the wire harness is tucked out of the way.I removed the door and rebuilt the hinges....
replacing the door is where things get a little tricky believe it or not I didnt use a floor jack ,a strap ,or a ladder etc...what I did is used three paint sticks stacked to set my bottom door to rocker gap.I set one stack at the front and another at the back they sit on the rocker and I held them in place with my small vicegrip clamps (thats is the tip) ,then I set the door on them giving me a nice parellel door to rocker gap the clamp keeps the door from falling on the floor and holds the paint sticks in place. Now I can slide the whole door forward and back ward freely the hinges are not bolted yet.first ,I want to raise or lower the door to line up the body lines by adding or removing the sticks (think of them as shims) when the lines line up then I want to slide the door forward or backward to get my rear door to 1/4 gap...gap width is a personal choice but remember the front and back should be a same and in a perfect world the door to rocker gap is the same as the front and back too.but not as important.
OK so now you have the door in the hole no bolts yet and the body line match up and you have the door to 1/4 gap just where you want it...Now you want to see if the hinge bolts line up with the holes..mine didnt so I got out my die grinder with hole wallower and ground out the hole making it oval shaped and giving me more adjustability...I had to reposition (enlarge) all the holes on all the hinges....Your going to find that when the hinge bolts are tight and you first open the door and the hinges have to support some weight the back of the door drops... you need to preload the hinges you do this by putting one more stick in the back of the door raising up higher than it supposed to be,then when the weight loads the hinges the door falls right where its supposed too, its a lot of trial and error but sometimes everything goes right on the first try.....I'm told any ways...heres a pic showing the clamps and sticks...this should help everyone out a little....
Something to remember when adjusting your door gaps is only try to make them parellel if the door sticks out past the fender at the top or bottom thats very common and theres another step for setting the door flush to the 1/4

 

Would that work on a Firebird? Those rockers look different than mine.

 

Channel your inner red-neck and use duct tape to hold them on the rocker.

 

Only the ones with the fiberglass covers ...the covers screw into these pieces and all this is covered up...